The Hawks D vs. the Top 8 D: Asset Expenditure

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I would be more concerned if changes aren't made to the coaching staff ahead of 2023.

I'm interested. What changes to the coaching staff do you anticipate? It's almost '23 now.
 

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I'm interested. What changes to the coaching staff do you anticipate? It's almost '23 now.
I don't know if Carroll will retire but he's not going to be in charge 5 years from now. It's a when not an if. If the franchise is about to invest in a new QB, (this year or next), it would make sense to have the next HC make that call. There should be a change at DC regardless of what happens at HC. The DC should come from outside the Seahawks and the new DC should be able to bring in several new position coaches.

This year always looked like a 9+ win or bust type season for Carroll. It's unfair, but it is what it is.
 

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Let’s talk about Darrell Taylor a little. The guy jumped offsides at the end of the first quarter when obviously the Niners were just trying to get a jump on 4th and 7. I don’t know why they did that because even after the jump it was still 4th and 2 and they still had to punt. But still an unbelievably stupid thing to do. Also earlier in the season he ran to the field from the sidelines to participate in the game in the middle of the action.

It's dangerous to have a guy that dumb on the field, but this dude is too dangerously dumb to have even in the sidelines..

So yeah. The Dline needs a lot. The scheme doesn’t work, the players are not good and the coaching can’t fix either issue.
 
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I don't know if Carroll will retire but he's not going to be in charge 5 years from now. It's a when not an if. If the franchise is about to invest in a new QB, (this year or next), it would make sense to have the next HC make that call. There should be a change at DC regardless of what happens at HC. The DC should come from outside the Seahawks and the new DC should be able to bring in several new position coaches.

This year always looked like a 9+ win or bust type season for Carroll. It's unfair, but it is what it is.

The thing with Pete is. Is guys like him will never give it up. You'll have to take the keys from grandpa, if you will. Pete is the top of the hierarchy. No one can tell him "no." Save for Judy. But Judy apparently believes wholeheartedly in Pete. And is enabling this dysfunction we've seen on the field to continue in the hopes it can return to what it was 10 years ago.

Paul would've made a change a couple of years ago. Either limiting his power like he did to Holmgren, or find a new guy. Instead we're just stuck. Pete isn't retiring, he has no problems coaching to 80 if the owner lets him.

Do you think Judy will fire him if he doesn't win 9 games this year?
 

Spin Doctor

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The thing with Pete is. Is guys like him will never give it up. You'll have to take the keys from grandpa, if you will. Pete is the top of the hierarchy. No one can tell him "no." Save for Judy. But Judy apparently believes wholeheartedly in Pete. And is enabling this dysfunction we've seen on the field to continue in the hopes it can return to what it was 10 years ago.

Paul would've made a change a couple of years ago. Either limiting his power like he did to Holmgren, or find a new guy. Instead we're just stuck. Pete isn't retiring, he has no problems coaching to 80 if the owner lets him.

Do you think Judy will fire him if he doesn't win 9 games this year?
Yeah, I think Carroll at least needs to get the Holmgren treatment. He needs to be stripped of his ability to make calls over Schneider. I think he needs some accountability at this point because the same garbage has been happening again and again for years. Even the offense is starting to look like a tired old derivative of the same stuff we saw under Russell Wilson.
 

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Let’s talk about Darrell Taylor a little. The guy jumped offsides at the end of the first quarter when obviously the Niners were just trying to get a jump on 4th and 7. I don’t know why they did that because even after the jump it was still 4th and 2 and they still had to punt. But still an unbelievably stupid thing to do. Also earlier in the season he ran to the field from the sidelines to participate in the game in the middle of the action.

It's dangerous to have a guy that dumb on the field, but this dude is too dangerously dumb to have even in the sidelines..

So yeah. The Dline needs a lot. The scheme doesn’t work, the players are not good and the coaching can’t fix either issue.

Michael Bennet did this all the time...
 

TwilightError

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Michael Bennet did this all the time...
On fourth down? He did have a lot of offsides. But I dont remember if they were in obvious "make them jump" situations.

I dont think he ever ran on the field mid-play from the sidelines?
 
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pittpnthrs

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I wouldn't doubt for 1 second that this same roster could be top 15 with a competent coach who not only adapts the defense to best suit his players, but also knows how to game plan his opponents.

Well said
 

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Players come and go all the time I realize, but it's unfortunate that we weren't able to hang onto Frank Clark, because he didn't avoid the other team's QB as through he had leprosy. Opponent's ability to give their QB generous pockets large enough to fit in a Looff Carousel (including time to give folks a ride on those wooden horsies) has been ffffffffffustrating. John Schneider and Jody Allen need to hit big-time jackpot on pass rushers (and run stoppers) in the 2023 and 2024 drafts. And/or score a body or two in FA who'll actually be a dependable difference-making asset and not another Jamal Adams story.
 

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In fairness, Armstead and J Ward are first round picks By SF too. They have drafted well but also invested high draft capital in that defense.
 

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On fourth down? He did have a lot of offsides. But I dont remember if they were in obvious "make them jump" situations.

I dont think he ever ran on the field mid-play from the sidelines?
No ha. He never ran on the field. But the dude turned a lot of 3rd and shorts into 1st downs. And 3rd and longs into manageable situations.
 

JerHawk81

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1- typo on my part. We have NOT drafted well on D.
2- I love your quote, "Play stupid games, like trading Franchise QB level assets for a box safety, win stupid prizes." Even if Jamal Adams had been what we hoped he would be, the value of the trade + contract makes the deal a stretch in my eyes. He's a good player, and I'm hopeful that he'll be a good player again next year when healthy. But this move was always going to be a huge gamble with huge downside, and that's exactly what we're seeing.
3- I'm not sure if I agree with, or disagree with your view on these systems having a plan. You raise good points though. Probably moot.
 

knownone

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I debated whether to go with that logic, but ultimately when those assets are spent that is the risk, and price incurred.

If they don't trade for Adams they have those picks to spend for themselves at those values, and they are worth what they are worth. The other teams were scored the same way. The damage is done.
That's a fair way to chronicle what the value of the trade ended up being. But that's not how you'd evaluate investment decisions or how a business would evaluate its performance. So if your thesis is to look at what Pete and John invested in this defense compared to Team X, then it's a misrepresentation made with the benefit of hindsight.

So, for example, if we did this with the Wilson trade, then Seattle, as of now, got around 1700(+-100)* in draft value rather than the value given up at the time, which was about 1000*. Using your logic, we'd assume this is a master stroke by the Seahawks front office for not only predicting Wilson's decline into a bottom 5 QB but also that the Broncos would have an injury-ravaged season and lose seven games on the final drive.

*It's hard to value the other players in that deal.
 
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That's a fair way to chronicle what the value of the trade ended up being. But that's not how you'd evaluate investment decisions or how a business would evaluate its performance. So if your thesis is to look at what Pete and John invested in this defense compared to Team X, then it's a misrepresentation made with the benefit of hindsight.

So, for example, if we did this with the Wilson trade, then Seattle, as of now, got around 1700(+-100)* in draft value rather than the value given up at the time, which was about 1000*. Using your logic, we'd assume this is a master stroke by the Seahawks front office for not only predicting Wilson's decline into a bottom 5 QB but also that the Broncos would have an injury-ravaged season and lose seven games on the final drive.

*It's hard to value the other players in that deal.
I know you already know this, but I will extrapolate it further so it is fully understood.

The reason teams value next year picks down a rung is because they cannot help them immediately, and there are no guarantees those regimes will be in place to take advantage of said picks. It's for negotiation purposes. Otherwise, teams would just offer the latest picks possible, there is a value on "how soon."

However, when they do go ahead and make the move, and what's done is done. They value the picks at what they are. The Seahawks do not value Denver's 2023 1st rd pick as a 2nd rounder right now, best be sure.

Thus the focus is on capitol spent. (Not how they acquired it, or how much it was worth at the time of acquisition.) It's what they had to spend at the end of the day. And this is how these teams chose to spend it.

I will value the upcoming top 5 pick as a top 5 pick. When it is made, the Seahawks will too.
 

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Great thread Fade.

Those are truly eye opening numbers you've presented, and I hope Judge Jody takes a look at what you've spent a great deal of time and effort breaking down for us
 
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Thanks for posting. Upon initial read, this isn’t a good look for PC and JS.
I absolve JS from this mess.

Here's why:

Cable used to pick the O-Lineman, not JS. JS would catch the blame for it though. Eventually it got so bad they stripped Cable of picking O-Lineman. It had became a running joke that JS couldn't draft OL for those specifically unaware that Cable was actually picking the OL. But once JS took over the OL picks they have been great since.

The same thing is going on, on defense. Mostly, at the very least. In these last 5 years of drafting only Eskridge is their lone miss on offense, while they've missed on almost everyone on defense (talking the first 3 rounds.)

So JS is drafting well on offense, and he can't draft defense? I don't buy it.

Don't be surprised if you start to hear people say, JS can't draft defense in the near future.

I give Pete the lionshare of the credit for their drafting on defense in those amazing early years. He didn't do it alone, but it was mostly him. And in keeping the same energy, I give Pete most of the credit (blame) for what has transpired since on defense.

There is speculation out there that JS took full control of the '22 Draft, and I tend to believe it. But JS is still gonna have to draft the players Pete wants for his defense, and he can't tell Pete, "no."
 
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Great thread Fade.

Those are truly eye opening numbers you've presented, and I hope Judge Jody takes a look at what you've spent a great deal of time and effort breaking down for us
Judge Jody! Good one.👍
 

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Cable used to pick the O-Lineman, not JS. JS would catch the blame for it though. Eventually it got so bad they stripped Cable of picking O-Lineman. It had became a running joke that JS couldn't draft OL for those specifically unaware that Cable was actually picking the OL.
Didn't he pick a basketball player once as a conversion project and try and "learn him up"?
 

94Smith

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In fairness, Armstead and J Ward are first round picks By SF too. They have drafted well but also invested high draft capital in that defense.
They were first rounders but a long time ago. Armstead was drafted in 2015 and jimmy in 2014. They have played through their rookie contracts and were resigned as free agents. I think ward may even be on his third contract. So in a way, any team could have signed them , Seahawks included, but likely for more money.
 

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They were first rounders but a long time ago. Armstead was drafted in 2015 and jimmy in 2014. They have played through their rookie contracts and were resigned as free agents. I think ward may even be on his third contract. So in a way, any team could have signed them , Seahawks included, but likely for more money.
Yes, but it still shows the 49’s investment in their Defense. Their own original 1st round picks and that they have spent the money to retain them. Significant investments in the D.
 
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