hiring a college OC may have been a mistake...

[Bosnianseahawk1991]

I honestly think Grubb has done a good job . We move the ball consistently and this offense looks a lot better then the predictable Pete Carroll offense. JSN looks like the best #2 wide receiver in the whole NFL.

The scary thing is he is only getting better every week. I feel like since Dk has been out defenses have focused on stacking the box and shutting our running game down.

Dks injures has been a blessing I’m disguise because JSN gets separation and is open 80% of the time. Geno now has 100% trust in him and won’t second guess throwing him the ball at least 10 times during the game.

Dk coming back and JSNs trajectory to a legit star receiver makes this offense legit AF. We still have a whole half of the NFL season left.

If the defense played like they did against the rams and we are getting our pass rushers back. I honestly think we can run the table and win the division . Dk is the X factor and opens up the entire offense .

Everything changes when we go to San Fran and beat them this Sunday. Call me crazy but I see so much untapped potential with this team. On offense and defense.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

It certainly would be a massive season changer. We're just not on their level, YET. But, any given Sunday.

 

[Chukarhawk]

I agree that success rate is a better overall measure for effectiveness of your rushing game than YPA, yes. But it's been found that, in general, rushing attempt rate and rushing success rate basically don't matter for play action's effectiveness. See here.


We are, though. In 2023, we finished just outside the top 10 in offensive efficiency (#11), right now we are #18. (I define offensive efficiency as a measure of percentage of drives that end with a score and points scored per drive).

In order to be sitting at the #11 spot this year, we'd have to have scored nearly an additional 7 touchdowns over these first 9 games.

that almost lines right up with the number of picks our QB has thrown (10)

 

[Appyhawk]

that almost lines right up with the number of picks our QB has thrown (10)

In my book 2 TDs to 1 pick is maybe half way to a good trade.

 

[Chukarhawk]

In my book 2 TDs to 1 pick is maybe half way to a good trade.

Unfortunately, he's thrown 11Td's and 10 picks. That's not going to get it done. 7 less picks and we win at least 2 more games.

 

[FrodosFinger]

Geno’s inability to process coverage after progressions actually suck. He needs to start climbing the pocket and sliding through gaps better when pass pro breaks down. I’m pretty sure Mac has his ass on a short leash. Grubb’s offense is still a pro-style offense they just employ a lot of pre-snap college style of play calling. I don’t think it matters as long as we get a quarterback that can execute the plays and make adjustments at the los when needed. Geno does neither well

 

[Maelstrom787]

Geno’s inability to process coverage after progressions actually suck. He needs to start climbing the pocket and sliding through gaps better when pass pro breaks down. I’m pretty sure Mac has his ass on a short leash. Grubb’s offense is still a pro-style offense they just employ a lot of pre-snap college style of play calling. I don’t think it matters as long as we get a quarterback that can execute the plays and make adjustments at the los when needed. Geno does neither well

Now this one I just don't get. Geno has verifiably been confirmed by essentially every charting source and statistic to be one of the best pocket navigatiors in football since the start of 2023.

I'm not sure what line calls you guys want him to make unless you're asking for him to usurp the OC. Otherwise, the checks are built in. Grubb is reportedly calling plays with 2 options and the option taken is dependent on the defensive look given.

I don't see any evidence that Geno isn't progressing through reads of his own accord. Grubb mostly calls stuff that is designed to go to a specific receiver as most do. The problem is moreso that Geno faces more pressure than any other QB, and is facing it quickly.

Still, PFF and SIS have him causing almost none of the pressure.

It's clearly the entire offense being disjointed and unbalanced. There's no tell-tale "the quarterback isn't processing the field" like there was with end-stage Russ. There's no Geno sitting in the pocket for 4 seconds before running out the back of it while a tight end sits bare ass naked open 7 yards downfield.

 

[FrodosFinger]

Now this one I just don't get. Geno has verifiably been confirmed by essentially every charting source and statistic to be one of the best pocket navigatiors in football since the start of 2023.

I'm not sure what line calls you guys want him to make unless you're asking for him to usurp the OC. Otherwise, the checks are built in. Grubb is reportedly calling plays with 2 options and the option taken is dependent on the defensive look given.

I don't see any evidence that Geno isn't progressing through reads of his own accord. Grubb mostly calls stuff that is designed to go to a specific receiver as most do. The problem is moreso that Geno faces more pressure than any other QB, and is facing it quickly.

Still, PFF and SIS have him causing almost none of the pressure.

It's clearly the entire offense being disjointed and unbalanced. There's no tell-tale "the quarterback isn't processing the field" like there was with end-stage Russ. There's no Geno sitting in the pocket for 4 seconds before running out the back of it while a tight end sits bare ass naked open 7 yards downfield.

He climbed the pocket a lot during our wins. During our losses he has not buddy. Wake up guy!!! Geno is just a gap quarterback. He’s always had a nice arm. The intangibles like turnovers and 14 point swings due to piss poor decisions while trying to force shit is why he isn’t considered a franchise quarterback. This “feast or famine” rollercoaster we’ve been on with Smith is becoming frustrating, and I’ve always been a Geno guy. I just know that he’s a gap quarterback for a reason. I mean he can win ya some games but he can turn a good performance ugly on 3 effed up plays

 

[Appyhawk]

Every OC I ever heard of started as a college coach. Someone has to take the shot at getting a good one before someone else snags him. He'll master the learning curve. I just hope it happens sooner than later. But based on past Seahawk performance he'll have to discover something meaningful before the line improves a great deal.

 

[hawks85]

I was SO against this Grubb hire. I was not happy at all when the news broke. For those who don't follow UW football, that's where Grubb came from. This dude is so one dimensional it's not even funny. I told a couple a buddies that if the Hawks start look bad they're initially gonna blame the D, I stepped in and nope, the D will be fine, it's the God damn offense and Grubb. That dude hates running the ball. Honestly, I'm shocked Grubb didn't shit canned like Dodson did, I was ABSOLUTELY shocked. Regardless of what Grubb does during the second half, I honestly believe he'll be gone after the season ends.

 

[Maelstrom787]

I was SO against this Grubb hire. I was not happy at all when the news broke. For those who don't follow UW football, that's where Grubb came from. This dude is so one dimensional it's not even funny. I told a couple a buddies that if the Hawks start look bad they're initially gonna blame the D, I stepped in and nope, the D will be fine, it's the God damn offense and Grubb. That dude hates running the ball. Honestly, I'm shocked Grubb didn't shit canned like Dodson did, I was ABSOLUTELY shocked. Regardless of what Grubb does during the second half, I honestly believe he'll be gone after the season ends.

Yeah no, at this point he almost has to be canned at years end unless there's some drastic progress.

 

[hawks85]

Yeah no, at this point he almost has to be canned at years end unless there's some drastic progress.

I honestly think the reason why Grubb is still here is that there's no one to replace him right now. Had there been a notable OC available, Grubb would've be gone.

 

[DarkVictory23]

Geno’s inability to process coverage after progressions actually suck. He needs to start climbing the pocket and sliding through gaps better when pass pro breaks down. I’m pretty sure Mac has his ass on a short leash. Grubb’s offense is still a pro-style offense they just employ a lot of pre-snap college style of play calling. I don’t think it matters as long as we get a quarterback that can execute the plays and make adjustments at the los when needed. Geno does neither well

I'm not going to try and say Geno has had great season this year, he hasn't, but just because he hasn't been great doesn't mean every criticism you can think of is accurate.

As Maelstrom already pointed out, Geno has been one of the better pocket navigators in the league the last season and a half. Saying 'well he did it when we won, but not when we lost' makes no sense. Either he knows how to navigate a pocket or he doesn't. The reason why he hasn't done it in our losses (which is actually not true, anyway) is because you can't step up into the pocket if your center is pushed back into your lap.


But, no, Grubb's offense isn't a 'pro-style' offense. It's extremely heavy on designing routes to outplay the secondary, very little is done to slow up the front 7. This is a very college style of play design (since great athletes in the secondary are more common in college whereas the physicality in the front 7 is much lower).

We also call routes in the intermediate success range and quick hit routes (routes where a receiver is getting his head around as soon as Geno hits the last step of his drop back) 1/3 less often than we did last year. Just another 'college style' aspect of his play calling.

And the amount of shotgun and the very low amount of play action is also very college-style.

And sometimes, coaches bring in something from the college game and actually do throw off NFL defenses who weren't prepared for it. The RPO, Chip Kelly's tempo, even running out of shotgun all the time, all these were things that were brought into the NFL from the college game and have had varying degrees of impact.

And hey, we are leading in passing yards, so it's not like Grubb's route trees are total failures. But he's got to start paying attention to that front 7 and his offensive line if he wants to get this offense out of neutral... or, maybe he won't change a damn thing, Abe Lucas will show up, all of a sudden we've got all the time in the backfield we need, and our offense sprints to the top of the league.

 

[toffee]

Questions on Geno at this point would be how much permanent damage our OL's constant pressure has done to him.

Is Geno hearing foot steps even when there weren't any close by? Would something in the back of his mind cause erroneous decisions? Anything that messes with his decision makings?

From day 1 since Geno's combined, he has all the physical tools, superior ones too. Arm strength? Rocket! Foot speed? 4.55sec! His problem was decision making, or between his ears.

Decision making wise, is Geno 2024 as good as Geno 2022?

Any QB gurus here? Ole toffee certainly do not have enough football knowledge to make that call

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Depends on who you ask

(Runs for cover)

 

[Maelstrom787]

Questions on Geno at this point would be how much permanent damage our OL's constant pressure has done to him.

Is Geno hearing foot steps even when there weren't any close by? Would something in the back of his mind cause erroneous decisions? Anything that messes with his decision makings?

From day 1 since Geno's combined, he has all the physical tools, superior ones too. Arm strength? Rocket! Foot speed? 4.55sec! His problem was decision making, or between his ears.

Decision making wise, is Geno 2024 as good as Geno 2022?

Any QB gurus here? Ole toffee certainly do not have enough football knowledge to make that call

Geno 2024 is significantly better than Geno 2022 at a lot of things.

Geno is now significantly faster at processing and significantly better at managing the pocket, avoiding sacks, and getting the ball out on time.

Geno's stats are worse largely because of not just his own supporting cast failing, but because of a very noticeable overall downturn in league wide passing production since 2022.

 

[toffee]

Depends on who you ask

(Runs for cover)

Indeed, and seriously I don't have answers to my own question. But I really like to know!

 

[DarkVictory23]

Questions on Geno at this point would be how much permanent damage our OL's constant pressure has done to him.

Is Geno hearing foot steps even when there weren't any close by? Would something in the back of his mind cause erroneous decisions? Anything that messes with his decision makings?

From day 1 since Geno's combined, he has all the physical tools, superior ones too. Arm strength? Rocket! Foot speed? 4.55sec! His problem was decision making, or between his ears.

Decision making wise, is Geno 2024 as good as Geno 2022?

Any QB gurus here? Ole toffee certainly do not have enough football knowledge to make that call

It's impossible (or near it) to completely evaluate QB play outside of the context of the team you are surrounded by. Even defense and special teams have an effect on what a QB's stats and numbers are going to be.

So, there are a couple of way you can try and look at Geno's processing stuff. One, is to watch the tape. Obviously, the big negative that's standing out so far this year is the INTs. So, I sat down to watch the All-22 of each interception to see if you can see the thought process behind each one. There are, obviously if you throw 10 picks, going to be ones that are just flat-out bad choices by Geno.

In particular the two Niners interceptions stand out as the worst ones in this case as in both instances I think he simply misread the bracketing coverage that SF had on his targets. Those were bad decisions.

But others, it's different. For example, the first pick of the season, you can see exactly what Geno was going for. He's got Lockett streaking into the dead spot of a split safety look. A difficult throw, maybe? Yeah, but one that Geno actually excels at. It's not a bad choice at all. Only, our protection breaks down and Geno's foot gets grabbed mid throw and the pass ends up a duck. A lot of our INTs are actually pressure INTs but usually the decision making is sound.


The other way to do this is try and use some stats that try to get at what the QB is doing that are somewhat divorced from outcome.

One of the stats I look at is Success Rate. This is the percentage of plays that keep you ahead of the sticks. Geno's actually a top 10 QB in success rate. His average drop back is better for our team than the average drop back of most QBs in the league.

Others are a little more subjective, but they try to really focus on what the QB is doing. PFF's turnover worthy throws is a (very) subjective ranking of passes a QB makes that are in danger of getting picked off (not just ones that do get picked off). Geno actually likes to thread the needle a lot, so he had a pretty high Turnover Worthy Throw rate in 2022--but it's come down each year since. In 2024, he's got one of the best rates of starting QBs.

There is also Bad Throw Rate and On Target Rate, which are pretty much exactly what they sound like. Geno's top 5 in both of those.


So, while the results aren't there right now, if you try to dig into the process everything Geno's doing actually reads fine. He's making good choices, throwing the ball well. His time to throw is actually one of the quicker ones in the NFL, so he's not holding the ball forever.

It really does seem to be as simple as: We give up pressure too quickly. We need--by scheme or by personnel--to come up with a way to slow down that pressure. If we do that, a lot of these other problems will work themselves out.

 

[toffee]

It's impossible (or near it) to completely evaluate QB play outside of the context of the team you are surrounded by. Even defense and special teams have an effect on what a QB's stats and numbers are going to be.

So, there are a couple of way you can try and look at Geno's processing stuff. One, is to watch the tape. Obviously, the big negative that's standing out so far this year is the INTs. So, I sat down to watch the All-22 of each interception to see if you can see the thought process behind each one. There are, obviously if you throw 10 picks, going to be ones that are just flat-out bad choices by Geno.

In particular the two Niners interceptions stand out as the worst ones in this case as in both instances I think he simply misread the bracketing coverage that SF had on his targets. Those were bad decisions.

But others, it's different. For example, the first pick of the season, you can see exactly what Geno was going for. He's got Lockett streaking into the dead spot of a split safety look. A difficult throw, maybe? Yeah, but one that Geno actually excels at. It's not a bad choice at all. Only, our protection breaks down and Geno's foot gets grabbed mid throw and the pass ends up a duck. A lot of our INTs are actually pressure INTs but usually the decision making is sound.


The other way to do this is try and use some stats that try to get at what the QB is doing that are somewhat divorced from outcome.

One of the stats I look at is Success Rate. This is the percentage of plays that keep you ahead of the sticks. Geno's actually a top 10 QB in success rate. His average drop back is better for our team than the average drop back of most QBs in the league.

Others are a little more subjective, but they try to really focus on what the QB is doing. PFF's turnover worthy throws is a (very) subjective ranking of passes a QB makes that are in danger of getting picked off (not just ones that do get picked off). Geno actually likes to thread the needle a lot, so he had a pretty high Turnover Worthy Throw rate in 2022--but it's come down each year since. In 2024, he's got one of the best rates of starting QBs.

There is also Bad Throw Rate and On Target Rate, which are pretty much exactly what they sound like. Geno's top 5 in both of those.


So, while the results aren't there right now, if you try to dig into the process everything Geno's doing actually reads fine. He's making good choices, throwing the ball well. His time to throw is actually one of the quicker ones in the NFL, so he's not holding the ball forever.

It really does seem to be as simple as: We give up pressure too quickly. We need--by scheme or by personnel--to come up with a way to slow down that pressure. If we do that, a lot of these other problems will work themselves out.

Thanks dude, great read and I learned.

 

[keasley45]

Geno 2024 is significantly better than Geno 2022 at a lot of things.

Geno is now significantly faster at processing and significantly better at managing the pocket, avoiding sacks, and getting the ball out on time.

Geno's stats are worse largely because of not just his own supporting cast failing, but because of a very noticeable overall downturn in league wide passing production since 2022.

Logic, facts and real analysis dont work with some in this crowd.

You have a QB who is playing behind literally the worst line in the league, with one of the worst rushing attacks in the league... again.
And folks expect him to be playing like who? Patrick Mahomes?
The dude, again, is making the most of a stupidly bad situation and folks look at him in a vacuum, struggling (as he should) in this sh!+ can of an offense and say he's 'average'.
You cant argue that logic. An average, 'just a bridge' qb would be :

55% completion percentage , 150ypg and a 1:2 td to int ration.

Its like arguing the earth is round.

No qb in the league would have 'great ' stats in Seattle. Lamar Jackson might because he is borderline super human. But the other dude in the running for MVP - Goff... would look like Geno, if not worse.