Hawks ranked 15th/16 in NFC for 2022

[toffee]

Who said this: "Its not where you start, but its where you finish" Famous NFL Head coach

I think our team will start slow this season, and for good reasons such as new defense scheme, new OL etc., but I like to see a strong finish. The last 6 games of the season would be an indicator on where the Hawks are in their rebuilding.

 

[LeaveLynchAlone]

I guess thats one way to look at it.

But it ignores that we have to run in less than ideal situations because we had a qb that couldn't manipulate a defense on his own with just the pass plays in the book.

I'll give it you that the soft middle of our defense has been a problem spot for a while, but Pete acknowledged it and his fault for relying too much on an old approach and coaches that couldn't evolve the philosophy. But I guess acknowledgment isn't to you a sign of him not being senile or whatever you called it.

I get the frustration. I've been frustrated as well. But the blanket 'it all sucks' assessment is short sighted.

There have been reasons for why things have gone the way they have. And from where I sit, the measure of whether there's reason to believe in the team is a good one or not has to do with understanding the what and the why and whether or not Pete and company have shown signs of correcting things. If that all starts and ends with a belief that Russ WAS the team, well then...

But I don't see the sense in flatly labeling it all hopeless. The same leash he extended to the defense in trying to make subtle tweaks before starting the complete transition to a 3-4, he extended to a qb who was struggling with the same things in year 10 that he was in year 1.

They couldn't change the identity of the offense because it WAS Russ. Good and bad.

They COULD have shifted the defense after they let coordinator Richard go, but (and Pete all but admitted this) they elected to bring Norton back and Norton wasn't going to be the guy to take the team into the future. And the efforts over the last 3 years to adjust the scheme were fruitless because the guy calling the shots (KN) wanted everything on that defense to be built around his LB group.

I think this team has been 'stuck' in a dead end since Russ got his last payday and they elected to bring Norton back. At that point, they could have elected to just leave the old ways behind and step into the future they seem willing to now. Wish they'd done it before, but they ARE doing it. Thats not a sign of senility or whatever else.

Hope this upcoming season gives you some reason to hop again, dude.

The tears are for Twisted's incessant wailing as a victim and the poop is simply my opinion of the aforementioned incessant wailing of Twisted as a victim.

Your take is rational, reasoned and appreciated.

 

[LeaveLynchAlone]

Appreciate the civility keasely. The point of discourse is to see the other side, to expand your insight, acquire missed perspectives, and consistently look at where weaknesses in your own perspective lie.

Now, there is a yawning difference between hate and venting. It feels reasonable to expect venting when you ship your HOF QB off and grasping at straws for a starter now.
We just bet on our aging and potentially ineffective HC. One who even if he reverts his slide and turns out fantastic, only has maybe 3-5 years left of coaching. (Probably even the most optimistic timeline.)

We also know next year is essentially a mulligan.

You are right. It probably isn't fair to pee on people's Cheerios. If they want to be blindly optimistic, it might be better than to be just checked out.
Still the rush to pile all this on Wilson irks me. Wilson is literally the reason this team was winning for the past 5 years. Without him, this was a 5-6 win team by roster, even with an average QB.

And this is coming from someone that was labeled a 'Wilson-hater' for years because I saw all this coming.

When Pete finally goes, we are all going to be incredibly thankful for the tremendous job he did building the framework to allow this team to reach 2 SBs. And for allowing Wilson to carry this team for probably another 5-7 years. Nobody is disputing what he built, or how great he was.

If someone is not going to acknowledge his strengths AND weaknesses there is no point in discussing. Because that is just blindness.
He just does not seem good at almost everything that made him great. At least for several years now.

And yes, to pretend that his age has nothing to do with him suddenly losing effectiveness seems willful blindness at best.

The die is cast. The point of harping on his age was because we were making the insane decision to potentially keep an aging HC instead of a still viable HOF QB. We kept the aging HC. But that also means our time to do whatever we are trying to do is limited. Pete is getting worse over time and next year is potentially a lost year regardless.

 

[TwistedHusky]

LLA,
You are more than welcome to be annoyed with and even dislike me. No worries.
You want to roll with Amber Turd emogies go right ahead. But let's not diminish the word victim considering the last 2 weeks, cool?

We just had a week where there were real victims of terrible things.
Can we not diminish the word victim when there are real victims that make worrying about a crappy football team with no QB seem petty?

Nothing about me is a victim, and the conflating seems callous considering some of the crap actually going on out there for real victims. People that get disappointed in a sports team are not victims.

 

[keasley45]

I was going to say at the start off my last post that it was nice to have something more of substantive conversation about the team than those that sometimes fill these pages.

As to what you said, I guess you could take this upcoming year and see it as a mulligan. I take the 2021 and see it as that. The FO was fairly certain that this season would be Russ's last. And it wad clear from the outset that the bridge between the PC and him on the field was too long. Last year we were building toward nothing but future change.

Even prior to the season, the losses of Aldon Smith and Jaran Reed were two blows I don't thing they could have anticipated and were never able to rebound from.

You could argue that maybe the defense could have morphed a bit more this lats year, but they took the route of sacrificing ground but not points. Would the opposite have been preferable? I don't think so. All that needed to happen throughout last year, from week 2, was the same thing that happened in weeks 14 through 18. Co.plimentary ball and a balance offense, that would help a passing game that has never been good at sustaining drives and a defense that could obviously hold opponents from scoring (I also believe they were top 10 in 3rd down defense) but struggled to get off the field consistently.

I think the team was ready for what has come.

But the notion that we would never have been more than a 5 or 6 win team without Russ ... exactly what is that based on? What tangible evidence? Russ only ever did what Russ does. Players like J Graham were wasted because of it. Players like DK and ADB were being underutilized and frustration brewed ad a result. How could improving on a 3rd down passing efficiency that at best has ranked 12th and at worst, last under Russ, only ever had resulted in 5 or 6 wins. Would we have won in as spectacular fashion? No. But we may not have needed to.

 

[TwistedHusky]

You are right about 5-6. That was the consensus here so I went with that. But the more reasonable assessment is 6-7 wins, because Carroll has a system that does well against below .500 teams. It just fails in the playoffs when it is easier to gameplan for.

Though I disagree that sacrificing points on defense vs ground is necessarily a problem. Our strength was offense (when Wilson was not injured). Scoring points was not an issue, leaning into a strength was also not an issue.

Minimizing the time our offense had effective drives however, was a problem. Worse, that was one of the objectives of the opposing defense. Our defense should not be somehow helping the opposing team obtain an objective.
In reality, we should have gone into games with the understanding we needed to score 27 points to reasonably expect a win, then with an understanding how many drives we needed to realistically score that 27. That we tried to counter the trend the NFL is moving towards, had us swimming against the current...which is both tiring and challenging.

 

[toffee]

I was going to say at the start off my last post that it was nice to have something more of substantive conversation about the team than those that sometimes fill these pages.

As to what you said, I guess you could take this upcoming year and see it as a mulligan. I take the 2021 and see it as that. The FO was fairly certain that this season would be Russ's last. And it wad clear from the outset that the bridge between the PC and him on the field was too long. Last year we were building toward nothing but future change.

Even prior to the season, the losses of Aldon Smith and Jaran Reed were two blows I don't thing they could have anticipated and were never able to rebound from.

You could argue that maybe the defense could have morphed a bit more this lats year, but they took the route of sacrificing ground but not points. Would the opposite have been preferable? I don't think so. All that needed to happen throughout last year, from week 2, was the same thing that happened in weeks 14 through 18. Co.plimentary ball and a balance offense, that would help a passing game that has never been good at sustaining drives and a defense that could obviously hold opponents from scoring (I also believe they were top 10 in 3rd down defense) but struggled to get off the field consistently.

I think the team was ready for what has come.

But the notion that we would never have been more than a 5 or 6 win team without Russ ... exactly what is that based on? What tangible evidence? Russ only ever did what Russ does. Players like J Graham were wasted because of it. Players like DK and ADB were being underutilized and frustration brewed ad a result. How could improving on a 3rd down passing efficiency that at best has ranked 12th and at worst, last under Russ, only ever had resulted in 5 or 6 wins. Would we have won in as spectacular fashion? No. But we may not have needed to.

VERY sell said and I concur whole heartedly. I advocated for trading Russ last off season for similar reasons, because our team had no future with Russ as QB, a rather unpopular view.

 

[Natethegreat]

VERY sell said and I concur whole heartedly. I advocated for trading Russ last off season for similar reasons, because our team had no future with Russ as QB, a rather unpopular view.

It was unpopular because its silly. He took us to 2 super bowls and we were constantly a top team in the NFC. That didn't happen till Russ got here. The downgrade in play on this team is directly related to a LOT of very poor front office moves. Whether it was spending millions on washed up cast off first rounders or constantly trading our first and second round picks away for players who were either malcontents or ill fits for our team. Or our very poor drafts the last ten years.
That was the cause of this teams decline not Russ.

 

[toffee]

It was unpopular because its silly. He took us to 2 super bowls and we were constantly a top team in the NFC. That didn't happen till Russ got here. The downgrade in play on this team is directly related to a LOT of very poor front office moves. Whether it was spending millions on washed up cast off first rounders or constantly trading our first and second round picks away for players who were either malcontents or ill fits for our team. Or our very poor drafts the last ten years.
That was the cause of this teams decline not Russ.

we have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[scutterhawk]

Appreciate the civility keasely. The point of discourse is to see the other side, to expand your insight, acquire missed perspectives, and consistently look at where weaknesses in your own perspective lie.

Now, there is a yawning difference between hate and venting. It feels reasonable to expect venting when you ship your HOF QB off and grasping at straws for a starter now.
We just bet on our aging and potentially ineffective HC. One who even if he reverts his slide and turns out fantastic, only has maybe 3-5 years left of coaching. (Probably even the most optimistic timeline.)

We also know next year is essentially a mulligan.

You are right. It probably isn't fair to pee on people's Cheerios. If they want to be blindly optimistic, it might be better than to be just checked out.
Still the rush to pile all this on Wilson irks me. Wilson is literally the reason this team was winning for the past 5 years. Without him, this was a 5-6 win team by roster, even with an average QB.

And this is coming from someone that was labeled a 'Wilson-hater' for years because I saw all this coming.

When Pete finally goes, we are all going to be incredibly thankful for the tremendous job he did building the framework to allow this team to reach 2 SBs. And for allowing Wilson to carry this team for probably another 5-7 years. Nobody is disputing what he built, or how great he was.

If someone is not going to acknowledge his strengths AND weaknesses there is no point in discussing. Because that is just blindness.
He just does not seem good at almost everything that made him great. At least for several years now.

And yes, to pretend that his age has nothing to do with him suddenly losing effectiveness seems willful blindness at best.

The die is cast. The point of harping on his age was because we were making the insane decision to potentially keep an aging HC instead of a still viable HOF QB. We kept the aging HC. But that also means our time to do whatever we are trying to do is limited. Pete is getting worse over time and next year is potentially a lost year regardless.

What is OBVIOUS to everyone except you & John63's 'Know-It All' & hateful butts, is that WILSON IS LIMITED IN WHAT HE CAN DO in the framework of TODAYS NORMAL QB SYSTEMS where you have to be ABLE to read DEFENSES....I mean Sh*t, even Green Bay figured that out...Rodgers is WAAAAAAY MORE Proficient & COMPLETE at Reading & Reacting to Defensive sets, & RE-SIGNED him to keep (DONKO'S FIRST CHOICE) from going to Denver, and Y-O-U K-N-O-W T-H-A-T'S T-H-E- T-R-U-T-H...So you can keep right on with the "Let's Go Branden" sh*t, YOU & JOHN63 ARE IN THE MINORITY!! Live With It!!

 

[Natethegreat]

What is OBVIOUS to everyone except you & John63's 'Know-It All' & hateful butts, is that WILSON IS LIMITED IN WHAT HE CAN DO in the framework of TODAYS NORMAL QB SYSTEMS where you have to be ABLE to read DEFENSES....I mean Sh*t, even Green Bay figured that out...Rodgers is WAAAAAAY MORE Proficient & COMPLETE at Reading & Reacting to Defensive sets, & RE-SIGNED him to keep (DONKO'S FIRST CHOICE) from going to Denver, and Y-O-U K-N-O-W T-H-A-T'S T-H-E- T-R-U-T-H...So you can keep right on with the "Let's Go Branden" sh*t, YOU & JOHN63 ARE IN THE MINORITY!! Live With It!!

Apparently no one told the Denver Broncos how incredibly limited Russ is. Nor the Commanders or the Bears or any other team that would have loved to trade for him. The rest of the NFL most definitely does not look at Russ the way he is talked about by some on this board.

 

[scutterhawk]

It was unpopular because its silly. He took us to 2 super bowls and we were constantly a top team in the NFC. That didn't happen till Russ got here. The downgrade in play on this team is directly related to a LOT of very poor front office moves. Whether it was spending millions on washed up cast off first rounders or constantly trading our first and second round picks away for players who were either malcontents or ill fits for our team. Or our very poor drafts the last ten years.
That was the cause of this teams decline not Russ.

The "Two Superbowls" were >>ALSO BECAUSE<< of BEASTMODE, the LOB & Pete's outstanding Defense (43 to 8)
Wilson ALSO HELD US BACK WITH HIS IMPROMPTU SAND-LOT PLAY...Tail goes with the hyde, folks.
His INABILITY to READING & REACTING to GOOD Defenses like what the RAMS put forth PROVES THIS.
Russ' big payday meant cutting corners on OTHER MUCH NEEDED PLAYERS, and that is a FACT.
Offensive Weapons like LOCKETT & METCALF were NOT "Poor Drafts"
IF Wilson were 'ALL THAT' his talents would have continued to keep on SHOWING THROUGH, EVEN AFTER the departure of Marshawn Lynch & the EXIT of the LOB, AM I RIGHT???
Russ played 'Russ Ball' and it didn't matter if it was Bevell, Schott's, or even Waldren TRYING to HELP HIM ADJUST TO READING DEFENSES, which he EITHER couldn't or WOULDN'T adjust to.
As he started to slow down, Wilson held HIMSELF BACK with his Sandlot Impromptu play.

 

[onanygivensunday]

The rest of the NFL hasn't watched every play that Russ has ever made. They tend to watch only his highlights... early on, his sometimes-ridiculous scrambles that end in extremely long receptions. How many have happened recently?

Not all WRs can track the ball in the air like Tyler Lockett. He's one of the best in the league. Russ tends to get all the credit for his recent moon-balls. Let's see how Denver's WRs fare this season.

We've seen Russ' warts and Denver can have him.

 

[scutterhawk]

Apparently no one told the Denver Broncos how incredibly limited Russ is. Nor the Commanders or the Bears or any other team that would have loved to trade for him. The rest of the NFL most definitely does not look at Russ the way he is talked about by some on this board.

What OTHER OPTIONS did the Commanders, Bears, or any of the Teams that wanted to trade for his services..WHO ELSE WERE THE OTHER NON-CRAP QUARTERBACKS were AT THEIR DISPOSAL???????????
N-O-B-O-D-I-E-S, THAT'S WHO.

 

[scutterhawk]

You are right about 5-6. That was the consensus here so I went with that. But the more reasonable assessment is 6-7 wins, because Carroll has a system that does well against below .500 teams. It just fails in the playoffs when it is easier to gameplan for.

Though I disagree that sacrificing points on defense vs ground is necessarily a problem. Our strength was offense (when Wilson was not injured). Scoring points was not an issue, leaning into a strength was also not an issue.

Minimizing the time our offense had effective drives however, was a problem. Worse, that was one of the objectives of the opposing defense. Our defense should not be somehow helping the opposing team obtain an objective.
In reality, we should have gone into games with the understanding we needed to score 27 points to reasonably expect a win, then with an understanding how many drives we needed to realistically score that 27. That we tried to counter the trend the NFL is moving towards, had us swimming against the current...which is both tiring and challenging.

M-A-N-Y, , M-A-N-Y of those THREE & OUTS were of Russ' own Ineffective Sandlot Play making...Time after time, there were DOZENS of WIDE OPEN TARGETS that wouldn't have resulted in FLASHY PLAYS, & so RUSS wound up with even MORE unnecessary 3 & outs.

 

[keasley45]

The tears are for Twisted's incessant wailing as a victim and the poop is simply my opinion of the aforementioned incessant wailing of Twisted as a victim.

Your take is rational, reasoned and appreciated.

Quoted the wrong post, but thanks!

 

[GeekHawk]

Why is it that I repeatedly read in this thread that we have a new offense/new OC? Those saying that know that this is Waldron's 2nd year here, right? And that we saw his offense being ran as designed right? Albeit that it was being ran as designed by an inferior backup QB whilst Russ was injured? And that when it was being ran as designed that yards were made, 3rd downs were converted, time was consumed, and the only problem was that the QB was a backup? So we are only a competent QB away from an amazing offense...

 

[GemCity]

Uhhh…yah. Agree with Twisted here. Also, would’ve dumped Pete for Russ.

But, we have what we have. I do think we tore it up in the draft. If they did it once, they can do it again. Snag a QB next year.

I remember the Dallas Wildcard game. 13…13 times into a stacked box against what was arguably the NFLs best run defense that season. Some call that “philosophy”. I call it stubbornness.

I’m excited…more excited than I’ve been in the last several years. I’m anxious for next years draft. But if Im betting my house on it, Pete’s not going to see another playoff win during his tenure.

 

[JPatera76]

Why is it that I repeatedly read in this thread that we have a new offense/new OC? Those saying that know that this is Waldron's 2nd year here, right? And that we saw his offense being ran as designed right? Albeit that it was being ran as designed by an inferior backup QB whilst Russ was injured? And that when it was being ran as designed that yards were made, 3rd downs were converted, time was consumed, and the only problem was that the QB was a backup? So we are only a competent QB away from an amazing offense...

This is important too, people seem to not realize this or choose to ignore it.

 

[OrangeGravy]

Appreciate the civility keasely. The point of discourse is to see the other side, to expand your insight, acquire missed perspectives, and consistently look at where weaknesses in your own perspective lie.

Now, there is a yawning difference between hate and venting. It feels reasonable to expect venting when you ship your HOF QB off and grasping at straws for a starter now.
We just bet on our aging and potentially ineffective HC. One who even if he reverts his slide and turns out fantastic, only has maybe 3-5 years left of coaching. (Probably even the most optimistic timeline.)

We also know next year is essentially a mulligan.

You are right. It probably isn't fair to pee on people's Cheerios. If they want to be blindly optimistic, it might be better than to be just checked out.
Still the rush to pile all this on Wilson irks me. Wilson is literally the reason this team was winning for the past 5 years. Without him, this was a 5-6 win team by roster, even with an average QB.

And this is coming from someone that was labeled a 'Wilson-hater' for years because I saw all this coming.

When Pete finally goes, we are all going to be incredibly thankful for the tremendous job he did building the framework to allow this team to reach 2 SBs. And for allowing Wilson to carry this team for probably another 5-7 years. Nobody is disputing what he built, or how great he was.

If someone is not going to acknowledge his strengths AND weaknesses there is no point in discussing. Because that is just blindness.
He just does not seem good at almost everything that made him great. At least for several years now.

And yes, to pretend that his age has nothing to do with him suddenly losing effectiveness seems willful blindness at best.

The die is cast. The point of harping on his age was because we were making the insane decision to potentially keep an aging HC instead of a still viable HOF QB. We kept the aging HC. But that also means our time to do whatever we are trying to do is limited. Pete is getting worse over time and next year is potentially a lost year regardless.

You think you're disappointed now that he got traded, wait until you click on the thread titled " why isn't Russell in the HOF yet" in 15 years