Hawks ranked 15th/16 in NFC for 2022

TwistedHusky · May 27, 2022

That is laughable.
You can lean on a philosophy when it works. But it doesn't work now. It certainly hasn't worked in playoff games in anything other than wildcard since lost all our HOF in the LOB.

I said he has crappy gameplans (or terrible ones). I would certainly count the LACK of an effective gameplan as either of those.
You seem to be arguing his lack of a gameplan is part of his philosophy, which is great when it works.
But it doesn't now. And hasn't for some time in the playoffs.

You cannot possibly be arguing he doesn't need to plan because his plan is not to plan for opponents. But that sure sounds like what I am hearing.

Yes, Pete is known for not altering his approach for opponents. That is basically what he admitted to. That is also why he is failing. It isn't a mitigating factor, it is an indictment.

Chawker · May 27, 2022

Who said this: "Its not where you start, but its where you finish" Famous NFL Head coach

FrodosFinger · May 27, 2022

Look we are in fact in rebuild mode. We have a new team. New quarterback, new defensive scheme and a new roster in many spots. They should rank us last until we can go out and prove it on the field. However these are the same preseason rankings that had the Bengals winning 4 games last year. As soon as kick-off happens week 1 these rankings go out the window.

scutterhawk · May 27, 2022

TwistedHusky said:
Some of you are hilarious.

At this point, if you haven't seen the issues with Pete (issues that followed him since USC) - not sure what to tell you since you obviously aren't watching the games.

Pete himself literally tells you that he 'does not like to' adjust his approach to the opponent (which is code for having a predilection against it). This is how you get games like the Dallas playoff game or the Rams playoff game (at home).

He does not adjust for the strength and weaknesses of the team. He uses base defenses regularly - which results in linebackers trying to cover WRs. He runs the ball into loaded boxes. Hell, he barely even accounts for his own team...we were running the ball up the middle with guys like Homer and DJ...for 1-2 yds a carry.

He is terrible at adjustments at the half. Whereas the other team generally shuts down what is working for us after halftime.
If you cannot honestly acknowledge his weaknesses, THAT HE ADMITS TO, then discourse is pointless because you are either oblivious or incapable. Maybe deluded? no idea.

Didn't you watch the press conference where Pete admitted his defensive approach was 'arrogant'? HE PRETTY MUCH TOLD YOU HE WASN'T EVEN FACTORING IN THE OPPONENTS. What kind of gameday planning does not adjust to the opponent? Garbage planning.
(You watched these games and did not see it? Seriously?)

The problem isn't the weaknesses which should be obvious by now, it is that the strengths he used to have that offset them no longer appear to be in existence. Which means he has little to no value anymore.

What else do you call a defensively-minded HC running teams with some of the worst defenses in the history of the NFL?

43 to 8 blows your "Issues That Followed him Since USC" out of the water.
TWO YEARS IN A ROW he made the Seahawks the NFC WEST CHAMPIONS, He IS to be credited for also bringing our FIRST Lombardi TO SEATTLE >>PETE DID THAT<<
With his "WEAKNESSES" How many years did he COACH the Seahawks to the PLAYOFFS?
Look, WE GET IT, you >SAY< that you "Don't Hate Pete", but let's be honest, it's blatantly OBVIOUS to EVERYBODY HERE, that you >UNREASONABLY DETEST< the guy, because you do NOT miss an opportunity to crap on him every chance you get, and you're calling his supporters "Hilarious"??????....P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C

LeaveLynchAlone · May 27, 2022

TwistedHusky said:
Some of you are hilarious.

At this point, if you haven't seen the issues with Pete (issues that followed him since USC) - not sure what to tell you since you obviously aren't watching the games.

Pete himself literally tells you that he 'does not like to' adjust his approach to the opponent (which is code for having a predilection against it). This is how you get games like the Dallas playoff game or the Rams playoff game (at home).

He does not adjust for the strength and weaknesses of the team. He uses base defenses regularly - which results in linebackers trying to cover WRs. He runs the ball into loaded boxes. Hell, he barely even accounts for his own team...we were running the ball up the middle with guys like Homer and DJ...for 1-2 yds a carry.

He is terrible at adjustments at the half. Whereas the other team generally shuts down what is working for us after halftime.
If you cannot honestly acknowledge his weaknesses, THAT HE ADMITS TO, then discourse is pointless because you are either oblivious or incapable. Maybe deluded? no idea.

Didn't you watch the press conference where Pete admitted his defensive approach was 'arrogant'? HE PRETTY MUCH TOLD YOU HE WASN'T EVEN FACTORING IN THE OPPONENTS. What kind of gameday planning does not adjust to the opponent? Garbage planning.
(You watched these games and did not see it? Seriously?)

The problem isn't the weaknesses which should be obvious by now, it is that the strengths he used to have that offset them no longer appear to be in existence. Which means he has little to no value anymore.

What else do you call a defensively-minded HC running teams with some of the worst defenses in the history of the NFL?

LeaveLynchAlone · May 27, 2022

TwistedHusky said:
It is an arrogant philosophy that does not work. And it is lazy gameplanning.
He admitted to that in his conference.
Your defense that 'he doesn't need to plan for the other team because he relies on the players' is nonsensical.
Every team has strengths and weaknesses. And every approach has a counter that exploits it.
If you fail to account for this, you get defenses passing up the middle or constantly taking advantage of passes to their TE.
You get running up the middle into loaded boxes in a playoff game.
You pretty much acknowledged that his plan is the lack of a plan, because he sucks at it.
I get the philosophy. It works when you have a team flush with HOF players, simplify the game, let them react and make plays. But it is stupid with almost any other roster.
Because the other team has a plan. And if you do not account for it, they will do what is working (ie exploit you) and adjust away from what is not (ie stop what you are exploiting).

PS it sounds like his philosophy is not to adjust for the other team. Which means the plan likely does not either, and THAT is almost a flawed gameplan by definition.

(Not even going to bother with your defense of our defense, those #s are the result of us focusing on limiting opposing possessions, and bleeding the clock, while also allowing the opposing offense to march methodically up the field but take time off the clock. They weren't great at stops, they were just easy to walk slowly up the field on. It did not help us. It actually hurt us)

LeaveLynchAlone · May 27, 2022

TwistedHusky said:
That is laughable.
You can lean on a philosophy when it works. But it doesn't work now. It certainly hasn't worked in playoff games in anything other than wildcard since lost all our HOF in the LOB.

I said he has crappy gameplans (or terrible ones). I would certainly count the LACK of an effective gameplan as either of those.
You seem to be arguing his lack of a gameplan is part of his philosophy, which is great when it works.
But it doesn't now. And hasn't for some time in the playoffs.

You cannot possibly be arguing he doesn't need to plan because his plan is not to plan for opponents. But that sure sounds like what I am hearing.

Yes, Pete is known for not altering his approach for opponents. That is basically what he admitted to. That is also why he is failing. It isn't a mitigating factor, it is an indictment.

Smellyman · May 27, 2022

Twisted's hate for Pete and John Stanning for Russell more than Stan brings balance to the universe.

keasley45 · May 27, 2022

TwistedHusky said:
It is an arrogant philosophy that does not work. And it is lazy gameplanning.
He admitted to that in his conference.
Your defense that 'he doesn't need to plan for the other team because he relies on the players' is nonsensical.
Every team has strengths and weaknesses. And every approach has a counter that exploits it.
If you fail to account for this, you get defenses passing up the middle or constantly taking advantage of passes to their TE.
You get running up the middle into loaded boxes in a playoff game.
You pretty much acknowledged that his plan is the lack of a plan, because he sucks at it.
I get the philosophy. It works when you have a team flush with HOF players, simplify the game, let them react and make plays. But it is stupid with almost any other roster.
Because the other team has a plan. And if you do not account for it, they will do what is working (ie exploit you) and adjust away from what is not (ie stop what you are exploiting).

PS it sounds like his philosophy is not to adjust for the other team. Which means the plan likely does not either, and THAT is almost a flawed gameplan by definition.

(Not even going to bother with your defense of our defense, those #s are the result of us focusing on limiting opposing possessions, and bleeding the clock, while also allowing the opposing offense to march methodically up the field but take time off the clock. They weren't great at stops, they were just easy to walk slowly up the field on. It did not help us. It actually hurt us)

I didn't say he doesn't need to plan. I said constantky adjusting to what another team is doing is not what he preaches. Of course they plan. And mybpost also defender the fact that they do adjust. But there core philosophy isn't about CONSTANTKY changing to what the other team does.

And he acknowledged the flaw in that he was to slow to shift the core principles of the defense. But I highly doubt the idea that the hawks are going to beat you their way, will change.

sc85sis · May 27, 2022

TwistedHusky said:
Hey, if Pete can repeat the magic - everyone will be thrilled.
The question is whether an aging HC who used to be terrible at gameday play calling but incredible at player development, terrible at hiring coordinators but incredible at defense, and terrible at strategic positioning but incredible at motivation - can now be effective given he is still terrible at those things, but now also middling to poor at player development & defense. It does not help that his reputation as a motivator is taking a hit as well.
So what is left?
If Pete is in a cognitive decline, and sure looks like he lost a few rungs on his ladder already, then there isn't much to hitch the wagon to.

Can you please stop stating that Pete is senile and/or has cognitive decline? You don’t have to like his coaching, but you’re making ageistic claims that are insulting to the man. I’ve listened to him in interviews, in his podcast, etc. there is no evidence of decline the way you’re claiming.

TwistedHusky · May 27, 2022

The idea that the Hawks will beat you their way was rooted in the reality that for the most part, we had better athletes.
Remember the term 'Seahawky' for prospects?
Pete took 4-5 tremendous athletes and banked on 1-2 working out. For the most part, the strategy works. (or worked, more accurately).

That blueprint is still viable now. But it takes time and you have to guess right. It doesn't sound like we plan on following that blueprint though. oddly.

Pete was/is one of the better motivators in the league. That was actually a problem, he would gin up teams for big games and they would paste even the strongest opponent. But you cannot be ginned up forever, every peak begets a trough..and there would be emotional letdowns that turned into puzzling losses.
Pete was also a tremendous defensive mind, and because of that helped architect one of the greatest defenses in league history. You could easily put it up against the Bears 85 defense (ironically both defenses hinged on safety play...Plank for the Bears and Kam for us)

Nobody is disputing that Pete did not have a big hand in putting together one of the better teams in league history. He WAS exceptional at many things that offset his glaring weaknesses.
He just isn't exceptional anymore and frankly is struggling at average now.
(the PeteBall/TyBall thing does keep you near .500 though)
Not sure how acknowledging that he no longer is effective at the things that made him great constitutes 'hate' (more like disdain) but it seems like a very thin hope if you are banking on him getting effective at something he hasn't done well in the past 4-5 years.

On the 'ageism' front?

I do think he is in cognitive decline though. He used to be good at all these things, and now magically he isn't. As you age, one of the first things to go is the ability to quickly adapt/adjust to changing situations/environments. You get slower and slower at it. I don't consider it ageism because it is pretty apparent we are getting a C grade version of Carroll if not a D grade version at this point. Not railing against his age to be a jerk, I am pointing out that his age is a limiting factor - because it is. Reality is inconvenient, but it is also uncompromising. (Though I don't mind being a jerk if it drives the point home)

JPatera76 · May 27, 2022

TwistedHusky said:
The idea that the Hawks will beat you their way was rooted in the reality that for the most part, we had better athletes.
Remember the term 'Seahawky' for prospects?
Pete took 4-5 tremendous athletes and banked on 1-2 working out. For the most part, the strategy works. (or worked, more accurately).

That blueprint is still viable now. But it takes time and you have to guess right. It doesn't sound like we plan on following that blueprint though. oddly.

Pete was/is one of the better motivators in the league. That was actually a problem, he would gin up teams for big games and they would paste even the strongest opponent. But you cannot be ginned up forever, every peak begets a trough..and there would be emotional letdowns that turned into puzzling losses.
Pete was also a tremendous defensive mind, and because of that helped architect one of the greatest defenses in league history. You could easily put it up against the Bears 85 defense (ironically both defenses hinged on safety play...Plank for the Bears and Kam for us)

Nobody is disputing that Pete did not have a big hand in putting together one of the better teams in league history. He WAS exceptional at many things that offset his glaring weaknesses.
He just isn't exceptional anymore and frankly is struggling at average now.
(the PeteBall/TyBall thing does keep you near .500 though)
Not sure how acknowledging that he no longer is effective at the things that made him great constitutes 'hate' (more like disdain) but it seems like a very thin hope if you are banking on him getting effective at something he hasn't done well in the past 4-5 years.

On the 'ageism' front?

I do think he is in cognitive decline though. He used to be good at all these things, and now magically he isn't. As you age, one of the first things to go is the ability to quickly adapt/adjust to changing situations/environments. You get slower and slower at it. I don't consider it ageism because it is pretty apparent we are getting a C grade version of Carroll if not a D grade version at this point. Not railing against his age to be a jerk, I am pointing out that his age is a limiting factor - because it is. Reality is inconvenient, but it is also uncompromising. (Though I don't mind being a jerk if it drives the point home)

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LeaveLynchAlone · May 27, 2022

TwistedHusky said:
The idea that the Hawks will beat you their way was rooted in the reality that for the most part, we had better athletes.
Remember the term 'Seahawky' for prospects?
Pete took 4-5 tremendous athletes and banked on 1-2 working out. For the most part, the strategy works. (or worked, more accurately).

That blueprint is still viable now. But it takes time and you have to guess right. It doesn't sound like we plan on following that blueprint though. oddly.

Pete was/is one of the better motivators in the league. That was actually a problem, he would gin up teams for big games and they would paste even the strongest opponent. But you cannot be ginned up forever, every peak begets a trough..and there would be emotional letdowns that turned into puzzling losses.
Pete was also a tremendous defensive mind, and because of that helped architect one of the greatest defenses in league history. You could easily put it up against the Bears 85 defense (ironically both defenses hinged on safety play...Plank for the Bears and Kam for us)

Nobody is disputing that Pete did not have a big hand in putting together one of the better teams in league history. He WAS exceptional at many things that offset his glaring weaknesses.
He just isn't exceptional anymore and frankly is struggling at average now.
(the PeteBall/TyBall thing does keep you near .500 though)
Not sure how acknowledging that he no longer is effective at the things that made him great constitutes 'hate' (more like disdain) but it seems like a very thin hope if you are banking on him getting effective at something he hasn't done well in the past 4-5 years.

On the 'ageism' front?

I do think he is in cognitive decline though. He used to be good at all these things, and now magically he isn't. As you age, one of the first things to go is the ability to quickly adapt/adjust to changing situations/environments. You get slower and slower at it. I don't consider it ageism because it is pretty apparent we are getting a C grade version of Carroll if not a D grade version at this point. Not railing against his age to be a jerk, I am pointing out that his age is a limiting factor - because it is. Reality is inconvenient, but it is also uncompromising. (Though I don't mind being a jerk if it drives the point home)

OrangeGravy · May 28, 2022

scutterhawk said:
43 to 8 blows your "Issues That Followed him Since USC" out of the water.
TWO YEARS IN A ROW he made the Seahawks the NFC WEST CHAMPIONS, He IS to be credited for also bringing our FIRST Lombardi TO SEATTLE >>PETE DID THAT<<
With his "WEAKNESSES" How many years did he COACH the Seahawks to the PLAYOFFS?
Look, WE GET IT, you >SAY< that you "Don't Hate Pete", but let's be honest, it's blatantly OBVIOUS to EVERYBODY HERE, that you >UNREASONABLY DETEST< the guy, because you do NOT miss an opportunity to crap on him every chance you get, and you're calling his supporters "Hilarious"??????....P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C

Come on Scutter you know that was pure luck and any part that wasn't luck, Russell did it

Rainger · May 28, 2022

WmHBonney said:
I think we're better than or equal to Arizona, Washington, Giants, Detroit, Chicago, Carolina, Atlanta. Yes, on paper Arizona looks better. However, they are a dumpster fire with all of the bullshit going on with their QB. He is not a leader. He is a whiny little man.

Yup and maybe few others. That is why they will have 8 or 9 wins. This is not a dumpster fire. And never believe anything some east coast piece of woke shit says in some click bait story.

keasley45 · May 28, 2022

LeaveLynchAlone said:

I guess thats one way to look at it.

But it ignores that we have to run in less than ideal situations because we had a qb that couldn't manipulate a defense on his own with just the pass plays in the book.

I'll give it you that the soft middle of our defense has been a problem spot for a while, but Pete acknowledged it and his fault for relying too much on an old approach and coaches that couldn't evolve the philosophy. But I guess acknowledgment isn't to you a sign of him not being senile or whatever you called it.

I get the frustration. I've been frustrated as well. But the blanket 'it all sucks' assessment is short sighted.

There have been reasons for why things have gone the way they have. And from where I sit, the measure of whether there's reason to believe in the team is a good one or not has to do with understanding the what and the why and whether or not Pete and company have shown signs of correcting things. If that all starts and ends with a belief that Russ WAS the team, well then...

But I don't see the sense in flatly labeling it all hopeless. The same leash he extended to the defense in trying to make subtle tweaks before starting the complete transition to a 3-4, he extended to a qb who was struggling with the same things in year 10 that he was in year 1.

They couldn't change the identity of the offense because it WAS Russ. Good and bad.

They COULD have shifted the defense after they let coordinator Richard go, but (and Pete all but admitted this) they elected to bring Norton back and Norton wasn't going to be the guy to take the team into the future. And the efforts over the last 3 years to adjust the scheme were fruitless because the guy calling the shots (KN) wanted everything on that defense to be built around his LB group.

I think this team has been 'stuck' in a dead end since Russ got his last payday and they elected to bring Norton back. At that point, they could have elected to just leave the old ways behind and step into the future they seem willing to now. Wish they'd done it before, but they ARE doing it. Thats not a sign of senility or whatever else.

Hope this upcoming season gives you some reason to hop again, dude.

flv2 · May 28, 2022

The bottom 6 are the bottom 6, in some order. 1 or 2 of the top 10 will suffer injuries and hit a roadblock of tough opponents. That will drop that/those team(s) down into the bottom 6. 1 of the bottom 6 will stay healthy and have a favourable run where they meet opponents at opportune times. That could be the Seahawks, but the schedule doesn't look to be kind.

WarHawks · May 28, 2022

FrodosFinger said:
Look we are in fact in rebuild mode. We have a new team. New quarterback, new defensive scheme and a new roster in many spots. They should rank us last until we can go out and prove it on the field. However these are the same preseason rankings that had the Bengals winning 4 games last year. As soon as kick-off happens week 1 these rankings go out the window.

Bingo.

scutterhawk · May 28, 2022

sc85sis said:
Can you please stop stating that Pete is senile and/or has cognitive decline? You don’t have to like his coaching, but you’re making ageistic claims that are insulting to the man. I’ve listened to him in interviews, in his podcast, etc. there is no evidence of decline the way you’re claiming.

He won't, or maybe CAN'T stop, he's caught up in that spewing of the insults.
It's PARROTING the same CHILDISH "Let's Go Brandon" type crap that the HATE minions, are spreading all over the internet.
It's a DIS-EASE, nothing good comes from it.

TwistedHusky · May 28, 2022

Appreciate the civility keasely. The point of discourse is to see the other side, to expand your insight, acquire missed perspectives, and consistently look at where weaknesses in your own perspective lie.

Now, there is a yawning difference between hate and venting. It feels reasonable to expect venting when you ship your HOF QB off and grasping at straws for a starter now.
We just bet on our aging and potentially ineffective HC. One who even if he reverts his slide and turns out fantastic, only has maybe 3-5 years left of coaching. (Probably even the most optimistic timeline.)

We also know next year is essentially a mulligan.

You are right. It probably isn't fair to pee on people's Cheerios. If they want to be blindly optimistic, it might be better than to be just checked out.
Still the rush to pile all this on Wilson irks me. Wilson is literally the reason this team was winning for the past 5 years. Without him, this was a 5-6 win team by roster, even with an average QB.

And this is coming from someone that was labeled a 'Wilson-hater' for years because I saw all this coming.

When Pete finally goes, we are all going to be incredibly thankful for the tremendous job he did building the framework to allow this team to reach 2 SBs. And for allowing Wilson to carry this team for probably another 5-7 years. Nobody is disputing what he built, or how great he was.

If someone is not going to acknowledge his strengths AND weaknesses there is no point in discussing. Because that is just blindness.
He just does not seem good at almost everything that made him great. At least for several years now.

And yes, to pretend that his age has nothing to do with him suddenly losing effectiveness seems willful blindness at best.

The die is cast. The point of harping on his age was because we were making the insane decision to potentially keep an aging HC instead of a still viable HOF QB. We kept the aging HC. But that also means our time to do whatever we are trying to do is limited. Pete is getting worse over time and next year is potentially a lost year regardless.

Hawks ranked 15th/16 in NFC for 2022

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