Who is Russell Wilson?

LeaveLynchAlone

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...I guess I just don’t understand the re-writing of history on how good he was here, that’s my main issue

It's not a rewriting of history. I haven't read that he wasn't a good QB for the Seahawks, especially in the early years. People are simply understanding more clearly what was happening throughout the Russell Wilson evolution.

The history was written with assumptions that weren't actually true. Now that the air is clear from the fog of Russ, people can see how the Seahawks were always meant to operate.

If Russell were still here, do you believe we would be playing this well? Pete made Russell. Pete allowed Russell to become who he has become. Pete protected Russell on the field, in the locker room, in the public, and especially from himself.

Russell worked hard of course but Pete allowed him to become the player that many believed was greater than he actually was.

I can't imagine another coach who would have given Russell the time or opportunity or structure or patience to succeed. Who do you think would have allowed Russell to develop? Protecting him from himself. Teaching him to protect the ball and be fine will 190 yards on average passing.

Russell has never been a traditional QB ala Brees, so teams would simply either A) force him to play as a QB is supposed to play in the NFL or B) run and cook and end up injured like RG3 or benched or C) become a perennial back up.

Even "Rudy" barely played because he was too small. The league had no interest in a sideshow. Pete Carroll saw he could be more than a sideshow with the appropriate structure and control. Pete was the only coach that was willing to give Russell the time to learn the game and create a system to cover Russell's shortcomings.

This isn't rewriting history. This is simply seeing things for what they are with enough evidence and time and distance.
 

Lagartixa

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"Russ sucked" is a strawman. I haven't seen anyone say anything even close to that. What a lot of us are saying is that even though Wilson is, by far, the most accomplished QB the Seahawks have had in their history (and it's not even close... I put Krieg second, some put Hasselbeck second, and while we can debate how good those two were relative to their respective eras, I think we can all agree neither one of them is within light years of Wilson), Wilson had certain limitations that kept the Seahawks from going as far as they might have if they had had, instead of Wilson, a QB who actually kept playing within the system, allowed his OCs to fully implement their respective systems, generally accepted what his own strengths and weaknesses are instead of "visualizing" himself as something he just isn't, and focused more on team success than on his own personal glory.
 

themunn

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Wilson is/was a probably HoF QB, whose limitations started to show strongly in his last 2 seasons in Seattle. For a while he could manage without a strong running game but when the running game was at its best he was at its best - you only have to look at the last few games of last year to show that.

Perhaps his ego got in the way those last 2-3 years too, where we went through a cycle of sub-par RBs who brought his limitations to the forefront and paradoxically made him feel like he was better than he is and was being held back.

His quality was so telling that it's pretty funny that even despite his final season yielding 27 Total TDs to 6 Ints and a 100+ QB rating while missing 3.5 games and (granted, selfishly) playing through a broken finger for the remainder of the season, that people want to re-write history about how good he was here. As it is, Geno is on track for broadly the same type of season over a full 17 games and without injury and he's in the MVP conversation.

I'm not saying we'd be a better team this year with Wilson than without, I don't believe that, but even his worst seasons in Seattle (2016 playing through his injury all season, 2017 where we had probably the worst running game in NFL history and he was our leading rusher, and 2021 where he suffered his finger injury and the relationship soured to its end), he still played at an above average level.
 

Jac

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I'm not saying we'd be a better team this year with Wilson than without, I don't believe that, but even his worst seasons in Seattle (2016 playing through his injury all season, 2017 where we had probably the worst running game in NFL history and he was our leading rusher, and 2021 where he suffered his finger injury and the relationship soured to its end), he still played at an above average level.

I think you're right from the POV that two things can be true. Did he generally play at an above-average level? Yes. Did his style of play, personality, and his manufactured "Let Russ Cook" campaign potentially sub-optimize the team in his later years? There is now some pretty compelling evidence saying yes.
 

PNW25

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I think you're right from the POV that two things can be true. Did he generally play at an above-average level? Yes. Did his style of play, personality, and his manufactured "Let Russ Cook" campaign potentially sub-optimize the team in his later years? There is now some pretty compelling evidence saying yes.
This post is my point. “Did he generally play at an above average level” his first ten years statistically and game success he’s in a very, very small group ever in this league. That is generally above average it’s all time great category. By almost any measure, statistic, two SB’s etc he is in a very small group.

I’m not trying to pick on you because I think the overall point your trying to make is true. I guess where I differ from most of you guys is I think Russell was better than many in here think he was. That’s the gist of our disagreement I guess
 

themunn

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I think you're right from the POV that two things can be true. Did he generally play at an above-average level? Yes. Did his style of play, personality, and his manufactured "Let Russ Cook" campaign potentially sub-optimize the team in his later years? There is now some pretty compelling evidence saying yes.

I won't disagree with either of those.

The 2020 season was a microcosm, Russ started to cook, we started the season 5-0, but over the next 4 games he made a number of mental errors in his chase to grab the MVP that had so eluded him to date and we ended up 6-3. Carroll stepped in and tried to limit him and we went 6-1 to close out the season and finish 12-4. At the time critics of Carroll said we were ruining Wilson and holding him back, but ultimately we won those games and Wilson's individual aspirations suffered.

If Wilson had played within the system more in the first 9 games maybe they would have struck a finer balance but we went from one extreme to another to nobody's real benefit, as I believe we could have won more than the 12 games we did that year.
 

Jac

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This post is my point. “Did he generally play at an above average level” his first ten years statistically and game success he’s in a very, very small group ever in this league. That is generally above average it’s all time great category. By almost any measure, statistic, two SB’s etc he is in a very small group.

I’m not trying to pick on you because I think the overall point your trying to make is true. I guess where I differ from most of you guys is I think Russell was better than many in here think he was. That’s the gist of our disagreement I guess
Saying he's "above average" is definitely underselling him. He was good-to-great for most of his career here, and the team experienced unprecedented success in many respects because of him (and the defense, the running game, the home field advantage).

At the same time, even when he was here I didn't think he was a HOF QB. His overall career is part of a pretty-crowded tier of great QBs (e.g., Philip Rivers) that's not part of the all-time-great tier (in modern NFL, the Brady/Manning/Brees/Rodgers tier that Mahomes and maybe Allen are trending toward). There are a lot of reasons for things, but he's never received an MVP vote, never carried the team through the playoffs, etc. He was great but not an all-time-great IMO.
 

PNW25

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Saying he's "above average" is definitely underselling him. He was good-to-great for most of his career here, and the team experienced unprecedented success in many respects because of him (and the defense, the running game, the home field advantage).

At the same time, even when he was here I didn't think he was a HOF QB. His overall career is part of a pretty-crowded tier of great QBs (e.g., Philip Rivers) that's not part of the all-time-great tier (in modern NFL, the Brady/Manning/Brees/Rodgers tier that Mahomes and maybe Allen are trending toward). There are a lot of reasons for things, but he's never received an MVP vote, never carried the team through the playoffs, etc. He was great but not an all-time-great IMO.
Inrespwxt that. I do think he was because he was top 3 in passer rating, TD/int ratio, touchdowns, winning %, His 4th quarter stuff, game winning drives as well as two super bowls and a lock to win ten games for the majority of the time. I don’t think most quarterbacks carry a team through the playoffs anymore but I also think we don’t win the first SB without him. He led mutliple game winning drives, helped the run game a ton with the zone read stuff and never turned the ball over,

But again while I disagree with your take I think it’s reasonable and you make some valid points too.
 
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StoneCold

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The only thing I'd add is a word of caution. We're all extrapolating from the outside and with a small sample size, half a season. Based on the info we have it does appear that Pete played a bigger role in Russ' success than many previously thought, but it seems a stretch to say that Russ is and will always be limited. I've seen him make too many great plays to believe that. The reality is somewhere in the middle. And all of these observations could get thrown out the door if Denver goes on a winning streak and the Hawks struggle. Which will suck as the board will become a shite fest, as I need an alternative source of entertainment since deleting Twitter. :)
 

SantaClaraHawk

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This is who Russ is. Get Team 3 to put together an Antonio brown type video, then put it on his own Twitter.

 

OrangeGravy

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Wilson is/was a probably HoF QB, whose limitations started to show strongly in his last 2 seasons in Seattle. For a while he could manage without a strong running game but when the running game was at its best he was at its best - you only have to look at the last few games of last year to show that.

Perhaps his ego got in the way those last 2-3 years too, where we went through a cycle of sub-par RBs who brought his limitations to the forefront and paradoxically made him feel like he was better than he is and was being held back.

His quality was so telling that it's pretty funny that even despite his final season yielding 27 Total TDs to 6 Ints and a 100+ QB rating while missing 3.5 games and (granted, selfishly) playing through a broken finger for the remainder of the season, that people want to re-write history about how good he was here. As it is, Geno is on track for broadly the same type of season over a full 17 games and without injury and he's in the MVP conversation.

I'm not saying we'd be a better team this year with Wilson than without, I don't believe that, but even his worst seasons in Seattle (2016 playing through his injury all season, 2017 where we had probably the worst running game in NFL history and he was our leading rusher, and 2021 where he suffered his finger injury and the relationship soured to its end), he still played at an above average level.
The numbers are meaningless. Numbers don't win games. Specially year end cumulative numbers. How you get to those numbers in much more important to a functional offense and functional team
 

OrangeGravy

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This post is my point. “Did he generally play at an above average level” his first ten years statistically and game success he’s in a very, very small group ever in this league. That is generally above average it’s all time great category. By almost any measure, statistic, two SB’s etc he is in a very small group.

I’m not trying to pick on you because I think the overall point your trying to make is true. I guess where I differ from most of you guys is I think Russell was better than many in here think he was. That’s the gist of our disagreement I guess
The great disconnect when discussing Russell is whether you can separate Russell the football player from Russell the QB. Not everyone distinguishes between the 2. One is/was good, the other is/was mediocre. As the year's pile up, those 2 players are getting harder to distinguish and not in a good way
 

bileever

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I know i've written too many words on this subject already, but here's one more point about RW:

For a guy so hung up about his "legacy," Russ has really gone about it in the worst way possible. One of the most important ways to burnish your legacy is to have an adoring fan base. The way Chicago fans revere Walter Payton, or the 49ers fans think of Joe Montana. Without the support of Seattle fans, Edgar Martinez is probably not in the Hall of Fame. (What a contrast between those two--Edgar loved his adopted city, never left, and has a street named after him. Pretty sure Russ will not a Seattle street named after him.)

What will it mean to his legacy to have an entire city pissed at him? Will they eventually forgive and forget? Possible, but it's hard to tell. Even if Seahawk fans forgive, he'll never be loved or appreciated like he was before he left. I suppose he'll be loved in Denver if he can win a couple of Super Bowls for them, but it's tough when the expectations are so high. If you win, they'll just think that's what a hired gun is supposed to do.

More likely, the narrative in Denver will be that he's too expensive, even if he is a top-ten QB. And if they don't win, then it will be a lot worse.

It's hard to see how this all plays out. I can't think of another player who has done this kind of thing--so quickly and completely alientated an adoring fan base. There have been plenty of players who have left teams more gracefully, but in most cases, the players were forced out. If Russ was a borderline HOF candidate, I think he's definitely not getting in when even his fan base is saying, he wasn't responsible for our success.
 

toffee

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Russ better start ballin', the great J63 is now defending his stat against Rypien.
 
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Rat

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I should probably be mature and stopping rubbing salt into John63s wounds, but I'm not mature and he was annoying as hell, so I'm going to copy this recent quote from him in a thread on the Broncos boards asking what's wrong with Russ:

John63 said:
well lets see

new team
new system
new coaching staff
new owners
Questionable play calling
questionable play design
drops
penalties
bad oline play
he is pushing
in consistent run game
injuries to him
injuries to the team

I can go on

It's never Russ' fault. He's a special kind of delusional.

EDIT: Damn didnt realize the post before mine linked that exact same thread. I'll just keep this post up to bring attention to an especially delusional quote.
 

toffee

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I should probably be mature and stopping rubbing salt into John63s wounds, but I'm not mature and he was annoying as hell, so I'm going to copy this recent quote from him in a thread on the Broncos boards asking what's wrong with Russ:



It's never Russ' fault. He's a special kind of delusional.

EDIT: Damn didnt realize the post before mine linked that exact same thread. I'll just keep this post up to bring attention to an especially delusional quote.
And J63 has proof that it's never Russ' fault, which is his own words, everything he said were facts. If you dare to debate with him, he will say GOOD BYE and put you on ignore.
 
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