Report that Jody Allen not happy and very involved

[RiverDog]

Pete Carroll definitely looked like he was a guy with his job on the line with some of the calls he was making. The fake punt and fourth down tries were out of place. He was throwing everything he had at the 49ers.

That's one take, but another is that with nothing to lose, you might as well go for it. These are nothing more than glorified preseason games with the main object being talent evaluation.

The fake punt had to have been something that they saw on film. The time to try that is early in the game, although I was surprised that they did it on the first punt. Normally they would wait and confirm what they had seen from previous games, but other than that, they picked a good time to try it, in the first half with the score tied.

The 4th down call with 6 minutes to go was stupid, but I won't discuss it here as there's another thread dedicated to that subject.

 

[hugecanoli]

Pete Carroll definitely looked like he was a guy with his job on the line with some of the calls he was making. The fake punt and fourth down tries were out of place. He was throwing everything he had at the 49ers.

Great point.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Pete Carroll definitely looked like he was a guy with his job on the line with some of the calls he was making. The fake punt and fourth down tries were out of place. He was throwing everything he had at the 49ers.

Great point.

A coach shouldn't have his job on the line to take more calculated risks in order give his team the best chance to win and show his players he has faith in them to execute.

The nothing to lose thing is a cop out. Pete should have been coaching like this for years, especially when he's had mediocre teams. Because that's how you beat better teams, or turn the margin of victory in your favor, by taking risks and being unpredictable.

 

[hugecanoli]

Pete Carroll definitely looked like he was a guy with his job on the line with some of the calls he was making. The fake punt and fourth down tries were out of place. He was throwing everything he had at the 49ers.

Great point.

A coach shouldn't have his job on the line to take more calculated risks in order give his team the best chance to win and show his players he has faith in them to execute.

The nothing to lose thing is a cop out. Pete should have been coaching like this for years, especially when he's had mediocre teams. Because that's how you beat better teams, or turn the margin of victory in your favor, by taking risks and being unpredictable.

I'm with with you 100% - I was simply agreeing that he looked like a coach who feels the heat from the fire for the first time in a very long time.

 

[TraderGary]

Pete Carroll definitely looked like he was a guy with his job on the line with some of the calls he was making. The fake punt and fourth down tries were out of place. He was throwing everything he had at the 49ers.

Great point.

Yep, I had that exact same thought as I was watching the game yesterday. I'm sure the report about Jody being unhappy with the direction of the franchise had trickled down to Pete, and he was feeling the heat, as he should. And it's about damn time as far as I'm concerned.

 

[TraderGary]

Pete Carroll definitely looked like he was a guy with his job on the line with some of the calls he was making. The fake punt and fourth down tries were out of place. He was throwing everything he had at the 49ers.

Great point.

A coach shouldn't have his job on the line to take more calculated risks in order give his team the best chance to win and show his players he has faith in them to execute.

The nothing to lose thing is a cop out. Pete should have been coaching like this for years, especially when he's had mediocre teams. Because that's how you beat better teams, or turn the margin of victory in your favor, by taking risks and being unpredictable.

Great point, and I agree with you 100%. So tired of watching the "playing not to lose" philosophy Pete employs.

 

[Jerhawk]

Pete Carroll definitely looked like he was a guy with his job on the line with some of the calls he was making. The fake punt and fourth down tries were out of place. He was throwing everything he had at the 49ers.

Great point.

A coach shouldn't have his job on the line to take more calculated risks in order give his team the best chance to win and show his players he has faith in them to execute.

The nothing to lose thing is a cop out. Pete should have been coaching like this for years, especially when he's had mediocre teams. Because that's how you beat better teams, or turn the margin of victory in your favor, by taking risks and being unpredictable.

:ditto: perfectly said

 

[Jville]

Pete Carroll definitely looked like he was a guy with his job on the line with some of the calls he was making. The fake punt and fourth down tries were out of place. He was throwing everything he had at the 49ers.

That's one take, but another is that with nothing to lose, you might as well go for it. These are nothing more than glorified preseason games with the main object being talent evaluation.

The fake punt had to have been something that they saw on film. The time to try that is early in the game, although I was surprised that they did it on the first punt. Normally they would wait and confirm what they had seen from previous games, but other than that, they picked a good time to try it, in the first half with the score tied.

The 4th down call with 6 minutes to go was stupid, but I won't discuss it here as there's another thread dedicated to that subject.

I don't know how anyone can not know that Pete delegates game day decision making to coordinators, position coaches and players. It's not always Pete's call or a coordinator's call. In point of fact, sometimes its a player that makes the call in reaction to a look ...... as was the case in the so called fake punt play.

"Throughout the week, (special teams coordinator Larry) Izzo was telling us we've got the green light if we see this look, and they gave it to us on the first play," said running back Travis Homer.

..................... to much fiction is spread about Seahawk football. It's a huge disservice to the fans and players alike.

 

[TraderGary]

your expectations are to high here is an interesting stat

the majority of coaches hired every season from 2005–12 have since been canned. The 49 that were fired lasted fewer than three years on average, and 30 of them never even made the playoffs before being canned.

So the fact that Pete Carroll coached this team for 11 years and made the playoffs every year but 2 with 2 SB appearances is an amazing career and is far above the average. getting a great coach is just as hard than finding a franchise QB. they just don't come around often.

again you're going to believe what you're going to believe and i know I'm not going to change your mind...


LTH

So now you're using analytics to tell us how long our patience should last? Gotta give you an A for effort, bro, but decisions like these aren't something that you can quantify.

You keep telling us about how Pete ain't so bad, that compared to other coaches and teams that we're way ahead of the curve, that we should all get with the program, that we should be ashamed of ourselves for even thinking about changing coaches. I asked a question and would appreciate it if you or anyone else that wants to chime in to answer it:

How long should we wait? Another season? Two more seasons? Five more? Where do your numbers tell you that the breaking point is? Or is there no limit, that we should always and forever be content with making the playoffs, perhaps even winning a wild card game every once in a blue moon? Should we wake up each morning and thank our lucky stars that we're not the Detroit Lions or New York Jets?

First of all I don't think you should be ashamed of your self it's only a football team and Your expectation is what it is... I think it's unrealistic...If I asked this board if they would take Kyle Shannahan over Pete Carroll everybody would jump on it... but the reality is he is not a better coach than Carroll nor is McVay they are all very good coach's and I don 't think any one of them have out performed Carroll. all of them have had a bad year or two which have allowed them to revamp the team with new young talent and after their down years they come back strong... The most over looked thing about Carroll is everybody thinks they draft poorly.... well, usually there are 25 to 27 teams that get a chance to pick better players than the Hawks do so why would anybody think the Hawks would stay competitive under those circumstances? but they do...because they take chances...and when those chances work out they look brilliant and when they don't they take a butt load of heat.

Everybody has different expectations I think if Carroll doesn't turn this team around by the end of the season that that's when the discussion should start. if for some reason he has a losing season next year then he should be fired... he has earned that right IMO. He has earned the right to have one losing season out of 11 or 12 how ever long he has been here.


LTH

Wow, I know you view everything the Hawks do with rose colored glasses, and in your mind, they can do no wrong. But to defend their draft history is a serious reach, even for you.

2021 - Had a chance to draft Humphreys, the player nearly every Hawks fan wanted, and in a serious area of need, but go for Eskridge instead who has barely seen the field, and despite having 2 all-pro WR's.
2020 - Everyone wanted Partick Queen, but they go for Brooks instead, who shows signs of being a good player, but not at the same level as Queen who appears to be a perennial pro bowler if not all-pro.
2019 - Collier - huge reach, and complete bust.
2018 - reach for Penny when Nick Chubb is still on the board who once again, everyone wanted.

Collier and Penny are complete busts, and the jury is out on Brooks and Eskridge.

Replace Eskridge, Brooks, Collier, and Penny with Humphreys, Queen, Chubb, and anyone except Collier, and think about how much better this team would be. And that's just 4 examples off the top of my head. There are many others.

Now I know your counter argument will be, well you can go back and look at any teams draft and point out how they should have selected this player or that player instead. But in the Hawks case, we're talking about the OBVIOUS choices they should have made, and who everyone thought they would choose, and everyone wanted. But instead, they would rather reach and prove to everyone how smart they are, and we all saw how that worked out.

For you to actually defend their draft is frankly laughable. The game day coaching and scheming has been terrible, but the drafting has been abysmal which is why we have so many holes on this team, particularly the OL and DL. It's impossible for any of us to know if those selections were on Pete or John, but since Pete has final say in all decisions involving the team on the field, I think I know where to point the finger.

 

[Maelstrom787]

your expectations are to high here is an interesting stat

the majority of coaches hired every season from 2005–12 have since been canned. The 49 that were fired lasted fewer than three years on average, and 30 of them never even made the playoffs before being canned.

So the fact that Pete Carroll coached this team for 11 years and made the playoffs every year but 2 with 2 SB appearances is an amazing career and is far above the average. getting a great coach is just as hard than finding a franchise QB. they just don't come around often.

again you're going to believe what you're going to believe and i know I'm not going to change your mind...


LTH

So now you're using analytics to tell us how long our patience should last? Gotta give you an A for effort, bro, but decisions like these aren't something that you can quantify.

You keep telling us about how Pete ain't so bad, that compared to other coaches and teams that we're way ahead of the curve, that we should all get with the program, that we should be ashamed of ourselves for even thinking about changing coaches. I asked a question and would appreciate it if you or anyone else that wants to chime in to answer it:

How long should we wait? Another season? Two more seasons? Five more? Where do your numbers tell you that the breaking point is? Or is there no limit, that we should always and forever be content with making the playoffs, perhaps even winning a wild card game every once in a blue moon? Should we wake up each morning and thank our lucky stars that we're not the Detroit Lions or New York Jets?

First of all I don't think you should be ashamed of your self it's only a football team and Your expectation is what it is... I think it's unrealistic...If I asked this board if they would take Kyle Shannahan over Pete Carroll everybody would jump on it... but the reality is he is not a better coach than Carroll nor is McVay they are all very good coach's and I don 't think any one of them have out performed Carroll. all of them have had a bad year or two which have allowed them to revamp the team with new young talent and after their down years they come back strong... The most over looked thing about Carroll is everybody thinks they draft poorly.... well, usually there are 25 to 27 teams that get a chance to pick better players than the Hawks do so why would anybody think the Hawks would stay competitive under those circumstances? but they do...because they take chances...and when those chances work out they look brilliant and when they don't they take a butt load of heat.

Everybody has different expectations I think if Carroll doesn't turn this team around by the end of the season that that's when the discussion should start. if for some reason he has a losing season next year then he should be fired... he has earned that right IMO. He has earned the right to have one losing season out of 11 or 12 how ever long he has been here.


LTH

Wow, I know you view everything the Hawks do with rose colored glasses, and in your mind, they can do no wrong. But to defend their draft history is a serious reach, even for you.

2021 - Had a chance to draft Humphreys, the player nearly every Hawks fan wanted, and in a serious area of need, but go for Eskridge instead who has barely seen the field, and despite having 2 all-pro WR's.
2020 - Everyone wanted Partick Queen, but they go for Brooks instead, who shows signs of being a good player, but not at the same level as Queen who appears to be a perennial pro bowler if not all-pro.
2019 - Collier - huge reach, and complete bust.
2018 - reach for Penny when Nick Chubb is still on the board who once again, everyone wanted.

Collier and Penny are complete busts, and the jury is out on Brooks and Eskridge.

Replace Eskridge, Brooks, Collier, and Penny with Humphreys, Queen, Chubb, and anyone except Collier, and think about how much better this team would be. And that's just 4 examples off the top of my head. There are many others.

Now I know your counter argument will be, well you can go back and look at any teams draft and point out how they should have selected this player or that player instead. But in the Hawks case, we're talking about the OBVIOUS choices they should have made, and who everyone thought they would choose, and everyone wanted. But instead, they would rather reach and prove to everyone how smart they are, and we all saw how that worked out.

For you to actually defend their draft is frankly laughable. The game day coaching and scheming has been terrible, but the drafting has been abysmal which is why we have so many holes on this team, particularly the OL and DL. It's impossible for any of us to know if those selections were on Pete or John, but since Pete has final say in all decisions involving the team on the field, I think I know where to point the finger.

Their drafts looks worse than they are because they've had such hilarious flubs with their first picks.

The fact remains that in the past few drafts, they've extracted more value mid-round than the majority of other teams. They grade out right around average when boiling it all down to value received vs. value expected.

They're not bad overall, they're just not good enough to realistically build a roster capable of competing for a championship. And that's gotta change.

 

[Chapow]

2020 - Everyone wanted Partick Queen, but they go for Brooks instead, who shows signs of being a good player, but not at the same level as Queen who appears to be a perennial pro bowler if not all-pro.

Where on earth on you getting this idea?

Queen has had a few (very few) splash plays, but overall has not been very good, and certainly no where near pro bowl or all pro level. Brooks has been the better player so far and it isn't really very close.

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/patrick-queen/57941

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/jordyn-brooks/50851

Jordyn Brooks is also #4 in the NFL for total tackles. Patrick Queen isn't even in the top 50.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/player/_ ... s/dir/desc

At this point, Brooks is a solid to good NFL starting LB, and Queen just isn't.

 

[LTH]

First of all I don't think you should be ashamed of your self it's only a football team and Your expectation is what it is... I think it's unrealistic...If I asked this board if they would take Kyle Shannahan over Pete Carroll everybody would jump on it... but the reality is he is not a better coach than Carroll nor is McVay they are all very good coach's and I don 't think any one of them have out performed Carroll. all of them have had a bad year or two which have allowed them to revamp the team with new young talent and after their down years they come back strong... The most over looked thing about Carroll is everybody thinks they draft poorly.... well, usually there are 25 to 27 teams that get a chance to pick better players than the Hawks do so why would anybody think the Hawks would stay competitive under those circumstances? but they do...because they take chances...and when those chances work out they look brilliant and when they don't they take a butt load of heat.

Everybody has different expectations I think if Carroll doesn't turn this team around by the end of the season that that's when the discussion should start. if for some reason he has a losing season next year then he should be fired... he has earned that right IMO. He has earned the right to have one losing season out of 11 or 12 how ever long he has been here.


LTH

The issue isn't who the best coach is, Carroll or Shanny/McVeigh. We're not voting on who has the best resume. The issue is that Pete is no longer the right coach for this team.

It might take us another 4 or 5 HC coaching changes before we find the right one, but it's clearly not working anymore. We're on a treadmill, jogging in place at best, arguably backsliding at worst. It's not a lot different dilemma that the Eagles had a few years ago with Andy Reid and the Packers with Mike McCarthy. Both were good coaches with better resumes than those that replaced them, but the decision was made to move on from them, that they had enough time to make things work.

Drafting isn't my only issue with Pete. He's made a series of bad trades that didn't work out, including Percy Harvin, Jimmy Graham, and Jamal Adams. Their strategy of trading draft picks for band aid players has robbed us of draft capital. Last season, we went into the draft with just 3 picks and not having a first rounder. I also feel that he does not place enough emphasis on offensive linemen, including those available in free agency. Pete seems to have lost his eye for talent on the defensive side of the ball. He way overspent on Adams and clung to Tre Flowers for what seemed to be an eternity. Once he finally admitted to what was blatantly obvious to everyone and their dog and got rid of Flowers, our defense suddenly improved. The man is stubborn and refuses to change.

Your answer to my question is a little confusing. If Carroll doesn't turn the team around by the end of the season that's when the discussion should start, but that we should give him another year? What purpose does it serve to discuss it if your conclusion is predetermined?

Not that it matters, but just to set the record straight, barring our winning out, this will be Pete's 3rd losing season with us. We went 7-9 in his first two seasons. This is his 11th season with us.

The issue of who the best coach is was not my point. my point is all of those coaches have had up and down seasons but most would take those coaches over Carroll be cause of perception rather than reality.

your right Carroll's first season with the Hawks was a losing season but the truth is they went to the play offs they beat the saints when NOBODY thought they would and advanced to the second round of the playoffs . So that season even though it was a losing season was VERY successful and should not be considered a losing season.

Yes, Every team has bad trades that don't work out but also look at the trades and FA acquisitions they did make that worked out Dunlap, Diggs, ect. there are a lot over the years. and to be fair Adams has had a significant impact on the D. When the trade was made nobody knew Russ was going to get hurt and they were going to have a rough season. but for the record I was against the JA trade.

I do think he should be given another season I think he has earned that. I have seen no indication that this team has stopped playing for him quite the opposite they are playing hard for him and I am seeing creative coaching in all three phases of the game. lets see how it plays out. you can't say the loss of Russ doesn't severely affect this team. That's not Carroll's fault. IMO the things that would make me want to start talking about replacing Carroll are


1. if the team stops playing for him
2. if he has consecutive losing seasons in my mind he gets a pass because Russ got hurt
3. if he shows that he can no longer manage this team effectively. Some will say we are there I don't see it yet.

That's just my opinion

I expected to see a slow start in the beginning of this season being the team was taking on a new Offense with a new offensive coordinator. Russ has struggled a bit picking up the new offense as well he has had some issues with his reads, as they are asking him do adjust his game to do things he is not used to doing. but It looks like they have gotten that fixed lets see what happens in the future games'

This will not be Carroll's 3rd losing season it will be his 2nd. I don't count his 1st season as a losing season being they made the playoffs and advanced to the second round in the playoffs. I think that exemplifies Carroll's process in slowly getting better as the season progresses peaking at the exact right time. this season isn't over yet there are 5 games yet to be played.

LTH

 

[Fade]

Yes, they do pretty well on day 3 when graded against the rest of the league where JS happens to have the most influence.

Day 1 and 2 Pete gets what he wants. That is where they suck at drafting.

 

[LTH]

Yes, they do pretty well on day 3 when graded against the rest of the league where JS happens to have the most influence.

Day 1 and 2 Pete gets what he wants. That is where they suck at drafting.

I truly don't understand why you think it's all Pete, if it is, then fine but why do you think JS is not involved in making those decisions as well... why is it you think Pete is a micro manager? I don't get that? I think they decide as a group yes if there is a player Pete likes he is going to grab him but I think he gives the same respect to JS and probably his coaches from what i have read. I mean the truth is we don't know there are only tid bits of info out there.


LTH

 

[chris98251]

Don Coryell, Marty Schottenheimer, Chuck Knox were all winners that continually got to the playoffs, all were fired because they could not win even with a team of all pros, Pete is in that Category now, at least he won early so to speak.

 

[RiverDog]

Yes, they do pretty well on day 3 when graded against the rest of the league where JS happens to have the most influence.

Day 1 and 2 Pete gets what he wants. That is where they suck at drafting.

I truly don't understand why you think it's all Pete, if it is, then fine but why do you think JS is not involved in making those decisions as well... why is it you think Pete is a micro manager? I don't get that? I think they decide as a group yes if there is a player Pete likes he is going to grab him but I think he gives the same respect to JS and probably his coaches from what i have read. I mean the truth is we don't know there are only tid bits of info out there.


LTH

I'm with LTH on this one. I have never seen any reports of a conflict between JS and Pete regarding draft choices. None of us know what actually goes on in the war room on draft day. It may very well be that as the draft wears on, Pete is a little more out of the loop, but that's not to say that "he gets what he wants" in the first two rounds as if he doesn't have a say in the later rounds.

Make no mistake, this is Pete's team. Schneider works for Pete. It was set up that way when Paul Allen hired him. If Pete wants a player, whether he be a first round pick, a 7th round pick, or a FA acquisition, Pete gets who he wants. Obviously, JS and his scouts have a lot of input and he may delegate some decisions, like lower round draft choices, to JS or his scouts, but ultimately, the responsibility is the old man's. That's the way Pete wanted it and he wouldn't have taken the job if he didn't have that authority.

Pete's always given me the impression that he's fully involved in all aspects of player acquisitions. Which leads me to a personal story. I once had a friend/employee whose brother played for Buddy Ryan at Arizona back in the 90's. He said that Ryan was so detached that he didn't even know the names of some of his starting players, that he referred to them by their uniform numbers.

 

[RiverDog]

Don Coryell, Marty Schottenheimer, Chuck Knox were all winners that continually got to the playoffs, all were fired because they could not win even with a team of all pros, Pete is in that Category now, at least he won early so to speak.

I mostly agree. Pete's Super Bowl teams are 7 years in the past. He's coaching on a different plane now, produces good but not great teams.

 

[LTH]

Don Coryell, Marty Schottenheimer, Chuck Knox were all winners that continually got to the playoffs, all were fired because they could not win even with a team of all pros, Pete is in that Category now, at least he won early so to speak.

I mostly agree. Pete's Super Bowl teams are 7 years in the past. He's coaching on a different plane now, produces good but not great teams.

One of the reasons I want to wait and see how it plays out is because I think working through adversity is even good for a coach. I noticed a much better team out there vs the Niners and just maybe the adversity and losing has lit a fire under Carroll no matter what the circumstances were or are...

The Niners came out and smacked the Hawks good in the 1st quarter... The Hawks came back and smacked them back when the could have just folded. Thats says something to me. I'm curious what happens the next game.


LTH

 

[scutterhawk]

I won't accept the injury excuse, not for a minute. Other teams have injuries, too. Very few teams go through the season without some significant injuries.
I was down on this team last season when we finished the year 12-4 and were division champs. We were/are a team built on a house of cards. We're a .500ish team, winning games we shouldn't have last season, losing games we shouldn't have this season. We're not a team that can compete for a SB, haven't been for 6 seasons.
Once we turn off life support later this month, I'll be the first in line to push down on the plunger.

You're not accepting that Russell Wilson's injury was a significant downturn? I mean yeah, "other teams have injuries too" indeed, they do, but Wilson isn't just any other guy on the team, HE IS the KEY to our Offense, it's not as though you can just plug in a bench warmer, and carry on without missing a beat, it doesn't work like that.
Most other teams in the League would hit a hard slump with their #1 signal caller knocked out.
It's already been discussed/debated and concluded, that without Russell Wilson, our chances for success are diminished by A HE!! OF A LOT.
Carson's injury, and a subpar & faltering Offensive Line weren't small matters for Wilson to digest & work through either.

 

[Seymour]

Don Coryell, Marty Schottenheimer, Chuck Knox were all winners that continually got to the playoffs, all were fired because they could not win even with a team of all pros, Pete is in that Category now, at least he won early so to speak.

I mostly agree. Pete's Super Bowl teams are 7 years in the past. He's coaching on a different plane now, produces good but not great teams.

One of the reasons I want to wait and see how it plays out is because I think working through adversity is even good for a coach. I noticed a much better team out there vs the Niners and just maybe the adversity and losing has lit a fire under Carroll no matter what the circumstances were or are...

The Niners came out and smacked the Hawks good in the 1st quarter... The Hawks came back and smacked them back when the could have just folded. Thats says something to me. I'm curious what happens the next game.


LTH

LOL, like he hasn't had that chance prior to this season?

How bout this for starters??