Great Read on Bruce Irvin

[Pandion Haliaetus]

Say what you want about Bruce Irvin but he in his rookie season he has already been the best Seahawks pass-rushers drafted in the past decade.

And I've tried to think of names which is a very short list:

Palepoi, Tapp, Jackson, Reed, Davis, Curry at times.

And Irvin did his work at 245 pounds compared to these guys being 255 plus.

The funniest thing though is that a lot of you continue to act like Irvin's a bust, when he was arguably one of the best pass-rushers in the NFL in terms of production per snap as a rookie.

And also I wouldn't really expect a rookie to be able to very successful vs. talent strong tackles. Most pass-rushers usually are productive against weaker overall players.

The thing is though I think the only way Bruce Irvin will get love is if he's as productive as Aldon Smith or something. Its pretty stupid.

 

[hawk45]

When he got through, he got his sacks, and I'm not unhappy with his sack production. I think he'll get love if there's just more consistency. If we could see him bother the passer on a more regular basis, and spread out the sacks a bit more, I'll bet we see .net love for him.

But just comparing him to a guy like my all time least favorite Curry, I'm thrilled when a first year player shows flashes. Flashes are a good sign, the consistency I'm okay waiting on.

 

[kearly]

Your head must be HUUUUUge. Stop. Please stop. But don't stop entirely, because this site needs folks like you Kearly.

So wait, being on the same page as the FO an a topic means I have an ego? Not saying I don't, but I'm sure there are better examples to prove it. 8)

 

[kearly]

"I think the OP misrepresents the article, the article isn't any kind of counter-argument against the observation that Irvin has to sell out to do anything. If anything, it seems to support that idea by referring to Irvin as a situational pass rusher in the conclusion (albeit in an indirect fashion)."-Kearly

What is funny is that you tried to make a counter argument on point that i never argued. I never said that .netters said he "has to sell out to do anything." I actuallly made a a very broad statement that he is simply not a one trick pony. He is not simply an outside speed rusher. Yes he is fast and has one of the quickest firts three steps in the league but the article highlights his other skills.

My favorite part was the detail in which they took to highlight his multiple sacks against Brian Bulaga. I disagree that Brian Bulaga is a lower tier tackle. The freeze frame pictures show Irvin exploding off the ball, getting Bulaga to back peddle, Irvin then jams Bulaga in the upper torso, and breaks inside for the sack on Rodgers. It was a thing of beauty.

What is not so pretty is that people want to take what little we have to talk about in the offseason and dismiss it or make lame comments (not yours Kearly) to amuse themselves. Whatever works. On second thought this diversity is what makes this place so great. The complete detachment and confliction of characters like Tech, Kearly, and BFS. This place rocks.

It is also interesting that when i was thinking of a way to start the post, the first thing that came to my mind was how the article seemed to counter the common opinion. Not just that of .net, but that of the league and fans that Bruce has no pass rush repertoire. I am not saying he was not a liability against the run, just that he is developing a variety of moves i.e. good punch, good balance to not get push around when stunting inside, good bullrush, great first step, great bend around the corner, elite finishing speed to chase down the likes of Newton and Rodgers.

Naturally, the first thing to come to mind is how to counter my take on the article. To create some friction. To effect the ethos, pathos, logos of the post and create some talking points. This place is a regular laboratory of critical analysis, scientific argument, and playground for intellectual gods of the NFL blogosphere. I love it. It's like chemistry with crayons.

Does any body else have any groundbreaking epiphanies on the subject? What was the subject again?

A few play aside, Bruce Irvin's bullrush was almost totally ineffective last year. He had a good bullrush in college, but winning through pure strength is really hard to do at the NFL level especially for a 245 pound pass rusher.

Basically all Irvin did all year long was attack the edge, and occasionally stunt inside. Irvin was miserable at fighting off blocks and I wouldn't even say he's ideal for stunts- it's just that the stunts gave him a chance to get through unblocked which is a big deal for him.

To be even okay as a pass rusher Irvin had to sell out and commit fully to winning the battle to the edge. Against more athletic tackles that pretty much got him nowhere. Irvin is kind of like a pitcher who throws 97 MPH but has nothing else. He'll look dominant at times, but without a good changeup hitters will eventually start hitting that fastball because they know its coming. Clemons is a far more effective edge rusher than Irvin despite being slower because tackles must respect his inside move and hand use - there are several ways Clemons can beat them so they can't just key on one method. But with Irvin they can, and it's a big reason why he seemed to succeed almost exclusively against less athletic tackles.

Against the run Irvin similarly had to sell out and even then it was more like he just ate up space (vs. a single blocker) than anything. That helps explain how he had just 10 tackles last year in something like 600 snaps.

This is why the team is moving him, at least some of the time, to a blitzing SAM position where he'll see less contact. Almost everyone is a good pass rusher when unblocked, but Irvin benefits from it more than most, and the spinner role will get him more chances to draw blown assignments and register cheap sacks. Irvin can be a good player even with cheap, manufactured sacks. I think that's how his career ends up.

Maybe a few years down the road, Irvin develops and really does become another Chris Clemons. In the event he does not, I'm encouraged that the guys in charge are being proactive and putting Irvin in a more comfortable situation so he can be useful to the team immediately.

 

[smashmouth59]

I think most of us would love some cheap sacks. I actually think the definition of "cheap" sacks may be misconstrued. I am guessing that a cheap sack entails one that the pass rusher did not create entirely on his own. Much like those that Aldon Smith has lived on through his two seasons stunting on his LT being held by Justin Smith.

I don't care how we get them, i just want the 250 Lb freak with 4.4 speed wreaking havoc among QB's. I don't think it will take a genius to figure out a way to get this guy more tries in a strait line or untouched line to the qb. There are many ways to run around, away, and even through these olinemen with Irvin's skill set.

I also beleive that Dan Quin is just the one to make it possible. I actually think most of you agree and are just as excited as me to watch it happen this year. The spinner role is going to suit Bruce perfectly. I have been using him as WLB on may madden team when facing passing teams an he is killing it!

 

[Tech Worlds]

Oh well then that settles it. #HOF

 

[olyfan63]

Your head must be HUUUUUge. Stop. Please stop. But don't stop entirely, because this site needs folks like you Kearly.

So wait, being on the same page as the FO an a topic means I have an ego? Not saying I don't, but I'm sure there are better examples to prove it. 8)

The "HUUUUUge" bit was a bizarre thing to say. I'm thinking there are perception-impairing prescription drugs as a causal factor in that statement. Well, I sure hope there's a prescription, but if not, 400Watt is still in luck because Seahawks.NET has not yet come out with an official stance on PEDs, or even PIDs. (I=Impairing on the PID variant; alcohol is known to be a PED for watching games, but a PID for posting on Seahawks.NET)

All I've ever seen is passion & enthusiasm for analyzing various aspects of the NFL game and in particular our Seahawks. Your posts have always reflected that trying to analyze the NFL game is a very humbling experience. I can't ever recall even a hint of smugness in your posts; just thought-provoking analysis and routinely connecting seemingly random dots into a meaningful picture. You did go on a Chuck Norris spree on *just me* a couple weeks ago. There were about 3 times in a row when I went to post something, and you had already posted what I wanted to say several hours or days before I had even thought it. To top it off, you expressed it better and more completely than I was going to.

Anyway, I expect Irvin to be a big X-factor for the Hawks this year. Irvin played safety in Juco IIRC. So he can not only rush, he can drop into coverage and be effective doing so. I think Seattle will find some interesting ways to use Irvin this year. Maybe kinda like a much faster Karl Mecklenberg. It took Mecklenberg until his 3rd year in the league to make the Pro Bowl. Irvin's off to a good start.

 

[themunn]

Your head must be HUUUUUge. Stop. Please stop. But don't stop entirely, because this site needs folks like you Kearly.

So wait, being on the same page as the FO an a topic means I have an ego? Not saying I don't, but I'm sure there are better examples to prove it. 8)

I think it's just the way you said it - I had a double take when I read it first time too.

It's one thing to say "It looks like I was right when I saw this as the FO are addressing it"
It's another thing to say "It looks like the FO seen the same thing I did".

Of course they seen what you did, and they've probably seen and are addressing a lot more than what you did too. It's what they get paid to do and that's why they'll earn more money this year than most of us will in a lifetime.

I'm not saying it's wrong to have an ego regarding your football knowledge as it's clear you're very astute with regards to this kind of thing, it's more a case of the way that you word things.

 

[olyfan63]

Your head must be HUUUUUge. Stop. Please stop. But don't stop entirely, because this site needs folks like you Kearly.

So wait, being on the same page as the FO an a topic means I have an ego? Not saying I don't, but I'm sure there are better examples to prove it. 8)

I think it's just the way you said it - I had a double take when I read it first time too.

It's one thing to say "It looks like I was right when I saw this as the FO are addressing it"
It's another thing to say "It looks like the FO seen the same thing I did".

Of course they seen what you did, and they've probably seen and are addressing a lot more than what you did too. It's what they get paid to do and that's why they'll earn more money this year than most of us will in a lifetime.

I'm not saying it's wrong to have an ego regarding your football knowledge as it's clear you're very astute with regards to this kind of thing, it's more a case of the way that you word things.

I don't really see that much difference between your two constructs. The first one is slightly more egotistical with all its "I" language, but that's about it. We humans are naturally egocentric so I tend to give people a pass for the occasional self-congratulatory statement. If I take offense at every little thing someone says less than perfectly... Hell, I'd be offended all the time. Now for those "special individuals" who are self-congratulatory 24-7 for their own perceived unique brilliance, different answer. Whatever I'm missing, maybe you can explain the nuances in your two contructs.

Most of us have things we see in the Seahawks' play, and of specific players, and some are obvious... the lack of interior pass rush pressure, and the lack of QB pressure with Clemons out, and Irvin getting demolished in run defense while playing LEO. All these were on vivid display against the Falcons and resulted in the season-ending L. And of course, the need for quality depth in all those areas to better withstand key injuries.

One of the great things about the PC/JS regime is that as fans, we can see their determined efforts to try to fix the obvious problems a lot of us on .NET see. I saw Kearly's statement as simply applauding the FO, that feeling of "Finally! Yes!!" after all those long-suffering low-talent-roster years where the many holes were patched with chewing gum and overall things were held together with baling twine.

 

[bellingerga]

WHATEVER


This so-called thread is a joke.

When Irvin accomplishes anything post week four we can talk.



Until then porn is a more fulfilling fantasy.

Dude, If you ever have sex with a woman, you are going to be soooo stoked. 8)

hahahahahahaha mannnn. I'm getting alot of awkward stares right now, nothing quite as awesome as bursting out into laughter in a very quiet room full of people I've never met.

 

[bellingerga]

Your head must be HUUUUUge. Stop. Please stop. But don't stop entirely, because this site needs folks like you Kearly.

So wait, being on the same page as the FO an a topic means I have an ego? Not saying I don't, but I'm sure there are better examples to prove it. 8)

He kind of has a point. I mean it's always "i said this before it was popular" or "I totally called this way before it happened" and "look at how right I was about this". I mean, it doesn't bother me but I see what he's getting at. I guess if you're right, you're right though.

Put your hipster glasses on and roll with it.

 

[Hawks46]

I think Clemons might be the perfect example of what we need from a LEO.

Thing is, when we got Clemons from Philly, he'd been in the league for a while. He knew what it did/didn't take to succeed. We got him without a rookie adjustment to the NFL in general and that lifestyle, we got him with a work ethic and desire to succeed after not starting consistently in Philly, and we got him with experience and veteran savvy on the field.

From what I've seen (I don't get the All 22 tape, but for a while I had DirecTV and NFL package and could freeze and rewind stuff in slow mo) our LEO end sets the edge on the run in two ways: force the RB back inside where pursuit can get to him, and being difficult to block in space. You're not mauling that LT or stopping him dead cold as a LEO. This takes instincts, experience, and the ability to learn that skill set.

Can Irvin do it ? Yes, he can. He's actually bigger than Clemons now, and has always been faster. Like I mentioned above, Clemons has more of a pass rush repetoire, and experience and savvy. I watched some of Irvin's highlights from WVU and honestly, I watched him make some pretty instinctual plays against the run. His senior year, they actually moved him inside at 245 lbs, where he couldn't survive on his athleticism.

I honestly won't be surprised if Irvin gets moved around a bit to play to his strengths, then in year 3 or 4 all of the sudden he "gets it" or the "light comes on" but he'll be on Clemons level at pass rush and against the run. Irvin is what the FO and coaching staff thought he was: a raw, but uber athletic football player. The only thing you can't properly gauge is his desire and worth ethic, and that seems to be ok.