Does he also lead the league in needing to come back to win?Doesn't Geno lead the league in comeback wins since he has been starting?
Does he also lead the league in needing to come back to win?Doesn't Geno lead the league in comeback wins since he has been starting?
Yup. If the bad patch had lasted another game or two I would have wanted to get a look at Howell but with the way the team is positioned now it would be dumb to do that. I still would like to see the team make a move for the future in the offseason, as I don't think Geno is a good long-term solution.this is where I'm at. Right now? Geno is a good value. Unless we make the playoffs and win at least one game I don't think he gets a new contract here.
I don't have him at 8th, but the writer of that article did. I merely pointed out that some guys on dot net will not agree.Nah you were even wrong, you said Geno haters use the eyeball test. I just showed you there are other sites like PFF that use their metrics and have Geno much lower. You can laugh but what you said was dead wrong so you do you I guess.
The best part is if anyone even slightly disagrees with PFF’s 8th ranking(and almost everyone does) then by Toffees standards they’re “haters” and “GeNO’s” seems reasonable and well thought out.
Toffee if you have him 8th who are the guys you have higher? This will tell me who you have below him and I’m curious.
Nope you said people will use the eyeball test to disagree. I used stats and then you said there you go.I don't have him at 8th, but the writer of that article did. I merely pointed out that some guys on dot net will not agree.
OK I should have said eyeball and stats lol.Nope you said people will use the eyeball test to disagree. I used stats and then you said there you go.
Anyway, here’s to hoping Geno plays his ass off this week against GB. We’re going to need it
On paper this week should be a coming out party for him. GB can’t generate pressure and their secondary is a little beat up. I think Geno causes some of us to have to come out and give him his props. DK is due too for a touchdown.Geno would be having a great year if the redzone didn't exist.
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22nd QBR and 17th in PAA which is points above average.
He’s also 21st in ANY/A and 20th in EPA. 18th in passer rating.
But I don’t understand advance metrics as I’ve been told so I’ll let the real experts wade through these.
That’s the problem with advanced metrics is they’re all over the place. Guys like Keasely, Darkvictory, Knownone and Maelsteom have him top 10 and that’s fine. You can even find something to support it. Most other people probably have him in the 10-20 range or next tier down and you can find metrics to support that too.
Point is that’s why this debate is so polarizing. You find a metric that supports your priors and then you can’t understand how someone can disagree and you assume they’re not being objective(this point has been made multiple times).
Again the ultra pro Geno crowd paints this debate in a way that by default claims the other side is objectively wrong.Its funny how we dont have the same debate about whether or not walker is a top talent in the league. When he fails, its unanimously seen as a direct result of the line sucking or the scheme being crap. His stats are in the bottom 1/4 or so of the league. He has lost yards he wouldnt have had he been on a better team and behind a better line. Everyone would ackowledge that. There arent threads about how x number of RBs would be better here because the issue we have here is so obviously NOT the RB, even though his average is bad, runs for loss arent great, success in short yardage isnt great, etc.
Geno suffers behind that same offense and unlike Walker, doesnt have another aspect of the offense to lean on and help create what should be a schematic edge. Yet Geno, despite having at least 4 INts entirely NOT of his doing, sustaining countless drives on throws lesser qbs wouldnt have made, and repeatedly bringing this team back to win games, gets nailed to an INT total and low TD total because it substantiates a desire to paint him as an average (at best) qb.
So you can circle QBR, EPA and whatever fringe stat site rankings you want. If you choose to ignore context thats your perogative. Its not that you dont get advanced analytics, you just choose to not let the guy get out from under the ' has been, has never won anything, cant carry the team, ''there's a reason he was a backup'' ' labels that a cursory look at his game should tell you arent deserved. Sure, you cant say he HAS won something he hasnt. But to pretend as though the guys hasnt shown the talent, decision making ability, and skill to win a good bit more than he has if the team around him is something better than an anchor is just choosing to be stuck on an opinion. And thats fine. But...
Context SHOULD tell you that if a qb has had mistakes in 'scoring position' but in the past hasnt, that there might be extenuating cirumstances to consider. ESPECIALLY given the protection, run support, and scheme he has had to deal with - remember when their were arguments against Waldron being a significant issue?? Ehat happened to that? Nothing. Like almost every other proof that he CANT do a thing, the OC he played under now having been proven to be garbage does nothing to move the needle for you that you probably should give him more credit than you do.
If a qb set the record for comeback wins and his HC refers to him as a 'stone cold killer' in pressure cooker, end of game situations, but he's made a few mistakes in those areas over a few games, that might be what you consider in data driven analysis to be anomolous. If you choose to ignore the fact that he has shown to NOT be the kind of qb who 'cant get it done' when the game is on the line and instead want to lean on those failures as the rule... up to you.
Its tiresome to constantly have the guy do the things folks say he cant, be the sole reason on offense we are even in the position we are in for all of the high difficulty passes he makes to keep drives alive, have his own coaches couch many of his errors as 'team errors', and consistently play heady, accurate ball, only to have every negative moment amplified by some who are looking for justification to label him average.
Its also been said multiple times that no matter WHAT the dude does, there will always be a crowd that sees him more for everything he doesnt. Extenuating factors dont factor in. And that has been proven again and again.
I wssnt making a statement that he should be 8th.This rank had Geno at #8 just behind Murray. But #8? All the GeNOs on dot net will tell you that their eyeball test tells them otherwise. These are the GeNO that can post within minutes after a game that our QB took an extra nano second in decision making etc.
You see it that way. But please stop putting words in my mouth and repeatedly misrepresenting my position. If you search my posts i have said it more times than i can remember. - I think he is a lot better than just 10 other qbs in the league. I also think he is better than half the qbs in the league. And if he has better than one of the worst lines and rushing attacks behind him, hes probably better than 20 others. How much better he is than 12th is up to him. He has shown that in spurts, with a fraud of an OC, no protection, no run support and no defense, that he can play pretty clearly at a top 10 level for multiple games. The disconnect here is the fact that he can do that and has, apparently means little to his detractors. The circumstances that SHOULD lead to a team being a 5 win cellsr dweller gall away as soon as he makes a mistake and the fingers point at him for not being able to 'win more than 9 games' or 'win a playoff game'. The team didnt deserve to sniff the olayoffs the last 2 years let alone make it once and be up on the NFC rep in the SB at the half of the wildcard round.Again the ultra pro Geno crowd paints this debate in a way that by default claims the other side is objectively wrong.
We’ve had this debate a million times and yet you and toffee say “well no matter what you guys say this or that” when it’s flat out false. I have, as have most in here mentioned the obstacles.
No one said he can’t get it done or that he’s not a good QB. You attempting to paint all of us at the extreme end of the other side is tiresome. I’m with the vast majority of the non Seahawks world that has Geno in tue 10-20 range and that doesn’t make me or anyone else less objective than you are. There are valid reasons to hold that view(and I posted multiple) just as it is a valid argument to have him slightly higher as you do (PFF grade, GW drives etc).
I’ll ask you though who are the guys you have above Geno in your ranking? If having him 10-20 is crazy I would like to know how far above me you have him. Now you should use the same metrics you use for Geno for everyone else. There are a few guys you’re not going to think to put higher that by the same reasoning you have Geno high you need to have them high to be consistent.
It's my opinion that RB is significantly more affected by line play than a QB.Its funny how we dont have the same debate about whether or not walker is a top talent in the league. When he fails, its unanimously seen as a direct result of the line sucking or the scheme being crap. His stats are in the bottom 1/4 or so of the league. He has lost yards he wouldnt have had he been on a better team and behind a better line. Everyone would ackowledge that. There arent threads about how x number of RBs would be better here because the issue we have here is so obviously NOT the RB, even though his average is bad, runs for loss arent great, success in short yardage isnt great, etc.
Geno suffers behind that same offense and unlike Walker, doesnt have another aspect of the offense to lean on and help create what should be a schematic edge. Yet Geno, despite having at least 4 INts entirely NOT of his doing, sustaining countless drives on throws lesser qbs wouldnt have made, and repeatedly bringing this team back to win games, gets nailed to an INT total and low TD total because it substantiates a desire to paint him as an average (at best) qb.
So you can circle QBR, EPA and whatever fringe stat site rankings you want. If you choose to ignore context thats your perogative. Its not that you dont get advanced analytics, you just choose to not let the guy get out from under the ' has been, has never won anything, cant carry the team, ''there's a reason he was a backup'' ' labels that a cursory look at his game should tell you arent deserved. Sure, you cant say he HAS won something he hasnt. But to pretend as though the guys hasnt shown the talent, decision making ability, and skill to win a good bit more than he has if the team around him is something better than an anchor is just choosing to be stuck on an opinion. And thats fine. But...
Context SHOULD tell you that if a qb has had mistakes in 'scoring position' but in the past hasnt, that there might be extenuating cirumstances to consider. ESPECIALLY given the protection, run support, and scheme he has had to deal with - remember when their were arguments against Waldron being a significant issue?? Ehat happened to that? Nothing. Like almost every other proof that he CANT do a thing, the OC he played under now having been proven to be garbage does nothing to move the needle for you that you probably should give him more credit than you do.
If a qb set the record for comeback wins and his HC refers to him as a 'stone cold killer' in pressure cooker, end of game situations, but he's made a few mistakes in those areas over a few games, that might be what you consider in data driven analysis to be anomolous. If you choose to ignore the fact that he has shown to NOT be the kind of qb who 'cant get it done' when the game is on the line and instead want to lean on those failures as the rule... up to you.
Its tiresome to constantly have the guy do the things folks say he cant, be the sole reason on offense we are even in the position we are in for all of the high difficulty passes he makes to keep drives alive, have his own coaches couch many of his errors as 'team errors', and consistently play heady, accurate ball, only to have every negative moment amplified by some who are looking for justification to label him average.
Its also been said multiple times that no matter WHAT the dude does, there will always be a crowd that sees him more for everything he doesnt. Extenuating factors dont factor in. And that has been proven again and again.
I literally repeated your words. You then even in this post say things that fit exactly what I’m saying. I’m at a loss here. You’re also arguing things I’ve never said.You see it that way. But please stop putting words in my mouth and repeatedly misrepresenting my position. If you search my posts i have said it more times than i can remember. - I think he is a lot better than just 10 other qbs in the league. I also think he is better than half the qbs in the league. And if he has better than one of the worst lines and rushing attacks behind him, hes probably better than 20 others. How much better he is than 12th is up to him. He has shown that in spurts, with a fraud of an OC, no protection, no run support and no defense, that he can play pretty clearly at a top 10 level for multiple games. The disconnect here is the fact that he can do that and has, apparently means little to his detractors. The circumstances that SHOULD lead to a team being a 5 win cellsr dweller gall away as soon as he makes a mistake and the fingers point at him for not being able to 'win more than 9 games' or 'win a playoff game'. The team didnt deserve to sniff the olayoffs the last 2 years let alone make it once and be up on the NFC rep in the SB at the half of the wildcard round.
The argument here is simple. Some want to declaritivly say what he ISNT and find every shred of evidence to prove it - and that started before he even took a snap for us as a starter (thats really all you need to know about the 'debate'), and others look at the upside of his performance, despite being shackled to a hobbled offense up until now, and see his potential as well above what his career trajectory would have you beleive and better than some of his stats, given the hand he has been dealt - as if there should be any debate that a qb playing behind with the pieces he's had wouldn't struggle.
Even simple, logical trends like since the bye the dude is completing better than 73% of his passes and has a 2:1 td to Int ratio sbould paint a clrarer picture of whats going on. Could he be playing better because the pieces around him that he needs to play better are? Logic says yes.
Naysayers will attribute it to something else... him somehow just... 'playing better'. Sure he is playing better. BECAUSE HE DIESNT HAVE TO BE THE WHOLE OFFENSE. Doesnt feel like he HAS to makee every throw. His coaches have said it to a man. The team is playing better around him.
Fault him for not being some mythical elite qb who can single handedly will a bottom 3 defense, o line and run game to the playoffs all you want. The argument that 'someone else' could play better with the parts he's had has also been disproven, at least by the FACT that no one has.
But keep up the drumbeat. Its clear the dude finds the doubt as motivation.
And 'fan' however you want. Just dont repeatedly claim i am arguing something i am not.
I dont see there being as much a ' Geno is the savior, elite, top 5 qb we have been waiting for' movement sround here as much as i see over and again the need by some to say he is the opposite - a bridge, should be benched to see what Howell can do... 18th or worse 'best' qb in the league.
But like i said. It was that way in the minds of some before he ever took a snap for us as a starter. Shoot, 22nd is a massive improvement from the 'worst starter in the league (worse than Drew Lock) that some of the same folks who label him negatively now claimed he was then. Given that starting reference, top 12 or 13 is near impossible. I get it.
Does he also lead the league in needing to come back to win?
I don't know why you guts waste time arguing with him. You can't put him on ignore, unfortunately, cause he's special mod guy. You can, however, ignore him and let him lust after the mythical mistake free QB that he thinks is behind door #3.You see it that way. But please stop putting words in my mouth and repeatedly misrepresenting my position. If you search my posts i have said it more times than i can remember. - I think he is a lot better than just 10 other qbs in the league. I also think he is better than half the qbs in the league. And if he has better than one of the worst lines and rushing attacks behind him, hes probably better than 20 others. How much better he is than 12th is up to him. He has shown that in spurts, with a fraud of an OC, no protection, no run support and no defense, that he can play pretty clearly at a top 10 level for multiple games. The disconnect here is the fact that he can do that and has, apparently means little to his detractors. The circumstances that SHOULD lead to a team being a 5 win cellsr dweller gall away as soon as he makes a mistake and the fingers point at him for not being able to 'win more than 9 games' or 'win a playoff game'. The team didnt deserve to sniff the olayoffs the last 2 years let alone make it once and be up on the NFC rep in the SB at the half of the wildcard round.
The argument here is simple. Some want to declaritivly say what he ISNT and find every shred of evidence to prove it - and that started before he even took a snap for us as a starter (thats really all you need to know about the 'debate'), and others look at the upside of his performance, despite being shackled to a hobbled offense up until now, and see his potential as well above what his career trajectory would have you beleive and better than some of his stats, given the hand he has been dealt - as if there should be any debate that a qb playing behind with the pieces he's had wouldn't struggle.
Even simple, logical trends like since the bye the dude is completing better than 73% of his passes and has a 2:1 td to Int ratio sbould paint a clrarer picture of whats going on. Could he be playing better because the pieces around him that he needs to play better are? Logic says yes.
Naysayers will attribute it to something else... him somehow just... 'playing better'. Sure he is playing better. BECAUSE HE DIESNT HAVE TO BE THE WHOLE OFFENSE. Doesnt feel like he HAS to makee every throw. His coaches have said it to a man. The team is playing better around him.
Fault him for not being some mythical elite qb who can single handedly will a bottom 3 defense, o line and run game to the playoffs all you want. The argument that 'someone else' could play better with the parts he's had has also been disproven, at least by the FACT that no one has.
But keep up the drumbeat. Its clear the dude finds the doubt as motivation.
And 'fan' however you want. Just dont repeatedly claim i am arguing something i am not.
I dont see there being as much a ' Geno is the savior, elite, top 5 qb we have been waiting for' movement sround here as much as i see over and again the need by some to say he is the opposite - a bridge, should be benched to see what Howell can do... 18th or worse 'best' qb in the league.
But like i said. It was that way in the minds of some before he ever took a snap for us as a starter. Shoot, 22nd is a massive improvement from the 'worst starter in the league (worse than Drew Lock) that some of the same folks who label him negatively now claimed he was then. Given that starting reference, top 12 or 13 is near impossible. I get it.
Come on man no one said a word about Russ. I said Geno was in the 10-20 range. Why you think that’s ridiculous is beyond me.I don't know why you guts waste time arguing with him. You can't put him on ignore, unfortunately, cause he's special mod guy. You can, however, ignore him and let him lust after the mythical mistake free QB that he thinks is behind door #3.
What does Russ have to do with anything?Come on man no one said a word about Russ. I said Geno was in the 10-20 range. Why you think that’s ridiculous is beyond me.
What does Russ have to do with anything?
On paper he should? GB doesn’t generate a pass rush. I think Geno has one of his better games this yearWe need the best version of Geno this Sunday. I have a strange feeling he's gonna' light it up.