Russell Wilson is Elite | I'm Putting the Nail in the Coffin

[rcaido]

See? It's like you guys think you are being attacked when any criticism is made.

All I got in response was:

"Wilson has the 2nd best TD/INT ratio of all time." Great. Has nothing to do with what I asked, but it's a nice stat.

"How do you know if this is true when compared to other elite QBs?" Because I have NFL Game Pass including the all-22, and because I spend more time watching games than stats, and becuase I have noticed that sometimes our receivers have to wait for the ball, ruining their momentum and allowing the immediate tackle instead of a YAC or even TD opportunity.

"Wilson is asked to make consistently harder throws than the other elite QBs" Lovely. Again, has nothing to do with the question but thanks for the stat.

"Now tell us what an overthrown ball leads to and explain which produces better results?" Generally leads to an incomplete pass, why do you ask? I'm asking about under-thrown passes, not over-thrown. Are you specifically referring to the potential TD pass to Baldwin vs Carolina?

"Do you think he is the ONLY QB making several underthrown completions so the stats are wrong or tilted his way?" No, I don't think he's the only QB underthrowing, but thanks for the logical fallacy. And by the way I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT STATS. I'm talking about the ability to hit an open receiver in stride instead of making him wait for the ball to arrive.

"Aaron Rodgers' last two fourth quarters against Brady and Russell Wilson" Lolwut? Brady and Wilson don't play defense. How the hell do they impact Aaron Rodgers' fourth quarter performance from the sideline? This is getting stupid. What an asinine response.

And once again for the hard-of-reading: I am not against Wilson being elite, nor am I promoting it. I just presented an example of a demonstrable flaw and asked what the response was, and apparently nobody actually wants to talk about it as if it's a threat of some kind.

Conversation, people, try it.

TD/INT ratio does address it...Obviously if underthrown was such an issue, he would be having more INT & less completion leading to bad results. With him being one of the most accurate passing completion w/ TD/INT ratio #2 is a bit silly to complain about. He throws the ball where it needs to be...Most of the time where only the receiver can catch the ball. Why gamble for more yards w/ less chance of completion.

 

[toffee]

OMG, I just used my eyeball instead of stats. You know what? Both Rodgers and Brees are not elite, did you guys see the games with the Girls and Cardinals? How could those two be elite, in fact, they couldn't even manage a game against inferior opponent.

The non-elite club now include Russ (too short and not black enough), Bree (same as Russ),and Rodgers (ice cold in 4th q).

 

[Pandion Haliaetus]

Luck’s statline today 248 yards, 0 TDs, 1 Ints

Wilson’s for 1st half, 102 yards, 3 TDs, 0 Ints

The dagger:
Lucks YPA: 4.77 on 52 att
Wilson YPA: 17 on 6 att

I’m only saying this because Luck over the last month has been gaining traction for MVP and having everyone slobbering all over his production.

Wilson only has 2 games under 90 points QB rating with the lowest being 86.1. Luck has 5 games under that number, with 4 being under 80.

 

[OrangeGravy]

I'll just leave this here... Weird... those other guys on these lists must really suck. Go Russ! Go Seahawks! ALL IN.


[tweet]https://twitter.com/Pat_Thorman/status/1068159414702669828[/tweet]

Adding on to that Wilson is the the highest rated passer in the 4th qtr all-time.

The other names All-Time are Rodgers, Romo, Young, & Brady. Elite.

And yet we all agree that passer rating is a flawed stat, and the detractors will point out that we wouldn't need 4th-quarter heroics if we had more production in the first three.

This stuff just goes all around in circles.

For example: Wilson hits a wide-open Lockett to get to the 10 at the end of the Carolina game. Fantastic. Sets up the game-winning field goal. However, no one can say that it wasn't under-thrown, because it was, and that if thrown properly it was a sure touchdown. Passer rating doesn't care it was under-thrown - it was a long completion.

The people who think Wilson is elite care about the completion and the following victory. The people who don't think he's elite will focus on the under-throw and the missed opportunity - even if that opportunity would have given Cam Newton a minute plus change to have another go at our defense and potentially send the game into OT.

This wasn't even the first time in that game that an open receiver was under-thrown (and completed!), and in fact it's a regular aspect of Wilson's game this year. It'll be interesting to see if a smarter corner like Richard Sherman clues into it and anticipates an under-throw on deep passes. That could then be exploited if Wilson can throw it longer, but I digress.

So yes, Wilson has flaws, and one side will use that to prove non-elite, while the other will use the results to prove elite. Which side is right depends on the side you already lean to, and this thread nor any other will change that.

Russell under throws guys when they are completely wide open. He rarely does it when there's a DB trailing. To me that says he's decided long ago that when a guy is that wide open it's better to have more air under it and guarantee the long gain than to risk over shooting him. He has done that too, but not very often. I'm perfectly fine with that thought process. Of course I'm speculating, but I think if you asked him that's what he'd say. Some might not believe it, but he's smart and plays this game with his head as much as any other good QB

 

[toffee]

I'll just leave this here... Weird... those other guys on these lists must really suck. Go Russ! Go Seahawks! ALL IN.


[tweet]https://twitter.com/Pat_Thorman/status/1068159414702669828[/tweet]

Adding on to that Wilson is the the highest rated passer in the 4th qtr all-time.

The other names All-Time are Rodgers, Romo, Young, & Brady. Elite.

And yet we all agree that passer rating is a flawed stat, and the detractors will point out that we wouldn't need 4th-quarter heroics if we had more production in the first three.

This stuff just goes all around in circles.

For example: Wilson hits a wide-open Lockett to get to the 10 at the end of the Carolina game. Fantastic. Sets up the game-winning field goal. However, no one can say that it wasn't under-thrown, because it was, and that if thrown properly it was a sure touchdown. Passer rating doesn't care it was under-thrown - it was a long completion.

The people who think Wilson is elite care about the completion and the following victory. The people who don't think he's elite will focus on the under-throw and the missed opportunity - even if that opportunity would have given Cam Newton a minute plus change to have another go at our defense and potentially send the game into OT.

This wasn't even the first time in that game that an open receiver was under-thrown (and completed!), and in fact it's a regular aspect of Wilson's game this year. It'll be interesting to see if a smarter corner like Richard Sherman clues into it and anticipates an under-throw on deep passes. That could then be exploited if Wilson can throw it longer, but I digress.

So yes, Wilson has flaws, and one side will use that to prove non-elite, while the other will use the results to prove elite. Which side is right depends on the side you already lean to, and this thread nor any other will change that.

Russell under throws guys when they are completely wide open. He rarely does it when there's a DB trailing. To me that says he's decided long ago that when a guy is that wide open it's better to have more air under it and guarantee the long gain than to risk over shooting him. He has done that too, but not very often. I'm perfectly fine with that thought process. Of course I'm speculating, but I think if you asked him that's what he'd say. Some might not believe it, but he's smart and plays this game with his head as much as any other good QB

it still short and kinda white


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Scorpion05]

Saying one of the most proven deep throwers in the league regularly underthrows the deep ball is kind of delusional given Russ' history

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Saying one of the most proven deep throwers in the league regularly underthrows the deep ball is kind of delusional given Russ' history

You're free to rustle up the tape. I can point out plenty of examples where the receiver has to hitch up instead of catching it in stride.

It's not like it holds him back as a QB anyway. Just means we need a few extra plays to seal the deal.

 

[Fade]

Saying one of the most proven deep throwers in the league regularly underthrows the deep ball is kind of delusional given Russ' history

You're free to rustle up the tape. I can point out plenty of examples where the receiver has to hitch up instead of catching it in stride.

It's not like it holds him back as a QB anyway. Just means we need a few extra plays to seal the deal.

As OrangeGravy (Seymour as well,and maybe some others) have astutely pointed out. It is a strategic choice. To make sure he gets the completion, as an overthrow leads to a guaranteed incompletion. So Russ is choosing to miss short if he is going to miss.

Russell under throws guys when they are completely wide open. He rarely does it when there's a DB trailing. To me that says he's decided long ago that when a guy is that wide open it's better to have more air under it and guarantee the long gain than to risk over shooting him. He has done that too, but not very often. I'm perfectly fine with that thought process. Of course I'm speculating, but I think if you asked him that's what he'd say. Some might not believe it, but he's smart and plays this game with his head as much as any other good QB

Here is ducks41468 amazing quote pointing out how absurd & nit-picky this critique is dripping in sarcasm of course.

There was that one time Wilson didn't hit his receiver in stride so he only gained 15 yards instead of 19 yards. This led to us needing an extra play to score a TD on a drive. Unacceptable. There was also one time he threw a TD to a receiver when there was a more open receiver he could have also thrown the ball to.

That 52 yarder to Lockett today was dropped right into the bucket, and in stride, (trailing defender in the way couldn't throw it short) but it was an insane throw. You cannot expect that on a consistent basis. Whether Russ is himself intentionally leaving balls a little short, or is being coached that way, it is the smart choice. To guarantee the completion.

 

[Fade]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/RobDemovsky/status/1069360535601332229[/tweet]
Elite.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/SandoESPN/status/1069362410744614912[/tweet]
Richard Sherman with egg on the face.
[tweet]https://twitter.com/Avory41000963/status/1069390681280401409[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/Z_Huffman26/status/1069380367445045248[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/AmberGabrio/status/1069378403864702976[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/SportsTalkFeed/status/1069352596534521856[/tweet]
Right in the bucket, couldn't throw it any better.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/FieldGulls/status/1069445459188412416[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/FieldGulls/status/1069445031780438018[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/FO_VVerhei/status/1069388514540703744[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/FieldGulls/status/1069444503415607296[/tweet]
Elite Production.
[tweet]https://twitter.com/SERCenter/status/1069299157054062592[/tweet]
That number is now 29 & 5.

Wilson overall for his standards had an average day, took a couple of bad sacks, but made some great throws early, and the offense kind of went into cruise control after the Penny TD.

 

[hgwellz12]

Im gonna see if I can borrow my cousin's 200LC Excavator, @Fade. Youre gonna need some help with all thes bodies!

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Hey Sherm, do you see what he's "capable of" yet???

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

Wilson torched them, and didn’t even have to throw enough to have a sore arm the next day.

 

[toffee]

After review 2017 performance, bunch of guys didn't know what they are doing put a short game manager in the top cluster 1 with elite Tom Brady.
[youtube]TWsORXIrVAE[/youtube]

 

[hgwellz12]

After review 2017 performance, bunch of guys didn't know what they are doing put a short game manager in the top cluster 1 with elite Tom Brady.
[youtube]TWsORXIrVAE[/youtube]

But but but... The I TEST... I mean The Eye TEST! :shock:

 

[Seymour]

Hey Sherm, do you see what he's "capable of" yet???

Yep!! 5 Picks!!

Forget the fact 3 of those bounced off of Kearse's hands and he was later shipped off. Also please forget the fact he has 5 ALL YEAR along with 29 TD's. :snack:

 

[SoulfishHawk]

And forget the fact that they WON that game in large part because of that QB refused to give up, down 16 w/5 minutes to go. You don't even play in your 2nd SuperbOwl w/out Russ...........

 

[Fade]

After review 2017 performance, bunch of guys didn't know what they are doing put a short game manager in the top cluster 1 with elite Tom Brady.
[youtube]TWsORXIrVAE[/youtube]

Great vid. That's a body.

 

[oldhawkfan]

The following is from the thread “elite” that I posted a few months ago. No matter how you slice it, Russell Wilson is elite. There can’t be many more nails left to end this debate.


The choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons.”


The above is a definition of the word elite in dictionary.com. I have seen lots of debate and opinions on this board regarding the status of Russell Wilson and even Pete Carroll as to whether or not either one is elite. I’m not sure we can even debate the merits of the elitness of a player or coach without first understanding what the term elite means.

In the definition provided, elite is the best of anything considered collectively. Using that definition, one has to take into consideration the pool from which the person is a participant in order to clearly define whether they are elite or not. What is not stated in the definition but plays a huge part in this discussion is what percentage of the pool is to be considered for elitness.

Russell Wilson consistently comes out in the top 5-8 of all QBs. Being a top 5 QB puts him in the top 15%. I have seen him rated as high as #3 in some lists. A #3 position puts him in the top 10%. In terms of production and importance to his team, he is a top QB. That in and of itself makes him elite within the pool of players that he is part of. The fact that a player is elite or not can only be based on the competition at their same position across the league. A player cannot be compared to players no longer playing or to an arbitrary preconceived notion of what a player should play like or how their physical measurable stack up.

What I think many fans determine elite to be is based less on a players rank within his own pool of players and more of a subjective analysis based on how they think a player should be. For example, most draft lists would put a player at 6’3” and a “prototypical “dropback passer as a more desirable draft pick than a 5’11” scrambling QB regardless of their on field productivity. This player bias plays into the psyche of coaches and fans alike and predetermines to an extent a players potential to be considered elite.

There is no formula to determine whether a player is elite other than how they stack up against their peers. Is Russell Wilson considered one of the best QBs in the NFL? Yes he is. Is he the best QB in the NFL. Probably not. That honor has to fall on Aaron Rogers and/or Tom Brady which makes them the elite of the elite. Maybe Russ isn’t elite, but he’s at the doorstep.

 

[rcaido]

Right now Wilson is more Elite then Brady and Erin this season. Still doesn't matter, only way to be elite is through east coast bias media or nfl darlings. no one will ever talk about south Alaska players. look at bobby wagner.

last time I checked Wilson is not even top 15 in the mvp conversation, which is crazy.

 

[Bigpumpkin]

Right now Wilson is more Elite then Brady and Erin this season. Still doesn't matter, only way to be elite is through east coast bias media or nfl darlings. no one will ever talk about south Alaska players. look at bobby wagner.

last time I checked Wilson is not even top 15 in the mvp conversation, which is crazy.

You are so "right on"!!! The East Coast media bias applies not only to Professional football teams.....