Which Russ Wilson would you rather have, current or rookie?

[IndyHawk]

The current ...But he has definitely lost speed...2012...33 sacks for 203 yards lost....2018 ...51 sacks for 355 yards lost. All the more reason to give him more pass plays from the pocket. IMO

Do you think some of this is coaches asking him to settle for negative plays instead of taking big hits on the scramble?

To be honest ; I have no clue as to how Wilson had been utilized by coaching for along time. I would rather he eat the downs once in awhile than get taxied off the field after a big hit .He's been very lucky in that respect ; but in this league it's a sure thing that he will get laid out eventually . The OL worries me in this regard...weak pass protection.

The risk was higher when he was in his rookie contract years but
since that time the NFL has watered down hitting a lot and QB's are
protected like babies now.
So while he still could get hurt that is anyone playing really..
I don't believe he is as fast and I don't believe he can run like he
used to due to simply age and the amount of hits he has taken
when he was able to run a lot..
His short passing has not gotten any better in all these years..
His getting the ball out is not faster..Blaming the OL when he
goes off script isn't doing it for me..
Why would I want the high priced version for less?

 

[John63]

The current ...But he has definitely lost speed...2012...33 sacks for 203 yards lost....2018 ...51 sacks for 355 yards lost. All the more reason to give him more pass plays from the pocket. IMO

Do you think some of this is coaches asking him to settle for negative plays instead of taking big hits on the scramble?

To be honest ; I have no clue as to how Wilson had been utilized by coaching for along time. I would rather he eat the downs once in awhile than get taxied off the field after a big hit .He's been very lucky in that respect ; but in this league it's a sure thing that he will get laid out eventually . The OL worries me in this regard...weak pass protection.

The risk was higher when he was in his rookie contract years but
since that time the NFL has watered down hitting a lot and QB's are
protected like babies now.
So while he still could get hurt that is anyone playing really..
I don't believe he is as fast and I don't believe he can run like he
used to due to simply age and the amount of hits he has taken
when he was able to run a lot..
His short passing has not gotten any better in all these years..
His getting the ball out is not faster..Blaming the OL when he
goes off script isn't doing it for me..
Why would I want the high priced version for less?

And yet his compl % on short passes in well over 60%, as to getting ball out quicker well now all you need to do is prove how the line, play call and design, and HC and his like of longnpass plays has nothing to do with it. Then realize while you are focusing on 2 things there is so much more the experienced Wilson brings you are over looking.

 

[KiwiHawk]

Wives and personal loves are completely off-limits unless they have a demonstrable, material impact on a player's on-field performance.

Wilson is a dedicated professional who works his ass off all season and off-season to be in top shape, as witnessed by his ability to play through a knee injury that would have side-lined most other quarterbacks.

Where the hell do we get off questioning his focus or determination when he's coming off one of the best seasons of his career?

Why is his wife a distraction and his Tuesdays at the hospital aren't? he could spend that day studying film and working out instead of visiting kids in the hospital, with whom he shares a bond only to have it tragically severed in many cases? You think that's not emotionally impactful? Yet he handles it like a cyborg because he's all business on the field.

And the killer thing is that you guys going after his wife will line up to get an autograph from him. Positively shameful.

 

[bmorepunk]

Consider:

Rookie
-Cheap cap hit
-Inexperienced
-Faster
-Less spotlight
-No Ciara factor

Current
-Experienced
-Poised
-Better pocket passer
-Can better read defences
-Ciara factor
-$$$ cap hit

I have no agenda, just curious. Also, this is a one year hypothetical. So if you pick rookie, that doesn't mean you get Sophmore Russ next year... etc.

We're really gonna mention a man's wife on here. The things people feel comfortable talking about under the security of internet anonymity :34853_doh:

I'm just going to come out and say that a lot of this "Ciara, OMG" stuff is just straight up misogyny. Dude could be watching internet porn and playing video games all day; we don't know what he does with his time. Just because we have something visible doesn't mean we'd have any inkling on his "focus" otherwise.

Him being married to a successful woman is probably getting translated to all this concern because people think she's "taking over his life" or "distracting him". This is one of the most basic "the wife, amirite guys???" perceptions.

 

[erik2690]

Ciara factor? What???

He’s happy, has a family, is stable.

These are all positives.

Present day RW is a better QB than younger RW. Even then he was pretty good.

Rookie Russ was just a young kid with a bright smile.
Current Russ is a slicked back baller with tons of dough and GLAM.

Make of that whatever you want but that’s just the facts.

You already wrote "less spotlight" though. "Ciara Factor" seems ugly and unnecessary, she's literally done nothing but come to games and be supportive. They've been marrried 3 years and have a child, that's his family.

 

[erik2690]

Can we change this poll to what Ciara would want? Safe to say Russ is the better father and husband but we all know Future surpasses him in the intamacy department. I've had a few woman flat out tell me "You know Future (insert curse) better".

WHAT? Have these women slept with or been in relationships with both of them? What a weird post lol

 

[soxhawk]

Rookie, easy. Cheap contract allows us to beef up our defense and sign play makers. Plus he could run back then. Slightly concerned he's here to put butts in seats, kinda like Ichiro was for the M's circa 2010.

 

[John63]

Rookie, easy. Cheap contract allows us to beef up our defense and sign play makers. Plus he could run back then. Slightly concerned he's here to put butts in seats, kinda like Ichiro was for the M's circa 2010.

Really you are going to do all that in 1 year? The question was you only get which ever you pick for 1 year?

 

[IndyHawk]

Do you think some of this is coaches asking him to settle for negative plays instead of taking big hits on the scramble?

To be honest ; I have no clue as to how Wilson had been utilized by coaching for along time. I would rather he eat the downs once in awhile than get taxied off the field after a big hit .He's been very lucky in that respect ; but in this league it's a sure thing that he will get laid out eventually . The OL worries me in this regard...weak pass protection.

The risk was higher when he was in his rookie contract years but
since that time the NFL has watered down hitting a lot and QB's are
protected like babies now.
So while he still could get hurt that is anyone playing really..
I don't believe he is as fast and I don't believe he can run like he
used to due to simply age and the amount of hits he has taken
when he was able to run a lot..
His short passing has not gotten any better in all these years..
His getting the ball out is not faster..Blaming the OL when he
goes off script isn't doing it for me..
Why would I want the high priced version for less?

And yet his compl % on short passes in well over 60%, as to getting ball out quicker well now all you need to do is prove how the line, play call and design, and HC and his like of longnpass plays has nothing to do with it. Then realize while you are focusing on 2 things there is so much more the experienced Wilson brings you are over looking.

60% on what he throws the least of and that's supposed to be good?As for play calls
if the coach thought he could do it well-wouldn't we be seeing a lot more of it?
I'll take the rookie..He could cover his weakness with speed runs and he used to throw
it away a lot more to avoid sacks.

 

[lukerguy]

Russ is not the same person he was when he first came into the league. He’s certainly much different appearance-wise since marrying a pop queen. My OP made no judgement on whether Ciara factor was a good thing or bad thing, you all who took issue, made those judgments or assumptions on your own.

 

[xray]

The current ...But he has definitely lost speed...2012...33 sacks for 203 yards lost....2018 ...51 sacks for 355 yards lost. All the more reason to give him more pass plays from the pocket. IMO

Do you think some of this is coaches asking him to settle for negative plays instead of taking big hits on the scramble?

To be honest ; I have no clue as to how Wilson had been utilized by coaching for along time. I would rather he eat the downs once in awhile than get taxied off the field after a big hit .He's been very lucky in that respect ; but in this league it's a sure thing that he will get laid out eventually . The OL worries me in this regard...weak pass protection.

The risk was higher when he was in his rookie contract years but
since that time the NFL has watered down hitting a lot and QB's are
protected like babies now.
So while he still could get hurt that is anyone playing really..
I don't believe he is as fast and I don't believe he can run like he
used to due to simply age and the amount of hits he has taken
when he was able to run a lot..
His short passing has not gotten any better in all these years..
His getting the ball out is not faster..Blaming the OL when he
goes off script isn't doing it for me..
Why would I want the high priced version for less?

Don't get me wrong ...your right when Wilson changes the play without telling the OL...then that's on Wilson...the fact is that many sacks can be hung on him...It's when he has to flush too soon because the line didn't slow up anybody . They gotta take 50% of the sacks ...just sayin that 51 sacks is not be acceptable . IMO

 

[John63]

Do you think some of this is coaches asking him to settle for negative plays instead of taking big hits on the scramble?

To be honest ; I have no clue as to how Wilson had been utilized by coaching for along time. I would rather he eat the downs once in awhile than get taxied off the field after a big hit .He's been very lucky in that respect ; but in this league it's a sure thing that he will get laid out eventually . The OL worries me in this regard...weak pass protection.

The risk was higher when he was in his rookie contract years but
since that time the NFL has watered down hitting a lot and QB's are
protected like babies now.
So while he still could get hurt that is anyone playing really..
I don't believe he is as fast and I don't believe he can run like he
used to due to simply age and the amount of hits he has taken
when he was able to run a lot..
His short passing has not gotten any better in all these years..
His getting the ball out is not faster..Blaming the OL when he
goes off script isn't doing it for me..
Why would I want the high priced version for less?

Don't get me wrong ...your right when Wilson changes the play without telling the OL...then that's on Wilson...the fact is that many sacks can be hung on him...It's when he has to flush too soon because the line didn't slow up anybody . They gotta take 50% of the sacks ...just sayin that 51 sacks is not be acceptable . IMO

The oline was ranked in the bottom 5 in pass blocking, Wilson has been one of the top 3 most hit, sacked, pressured and hurried in under 2.5 seconds every year in the league. That is on the oline period.

 

[soxhawk]

Rookie, easy. Cheap contract allows us to beef up our defense and sign play makers. Plus he could run back then. Slightly concerned he's here to put butts in seats, kinda like Ichiro was for the M's circa 2010.

Really you are going to do all that in 1 year? The question was you only get which ever you pick for 1 year?

Yeah a faster Russ with Antonio Brown and a healthy ET sounds pretty awesome for 2019... Instead of just Russ.

 

[John63]

Rookie, easy. Cheap contract allows us to beef up our defense and sign play makers. Plus he could run back then. Slightly concerned he's here to put butts in seats, kinda like Ichiro was for the M's circa 2010.

Really you are going to do all that in 1 year? The question was you only get which ever you pick for 1 year?

Yeah a faster Russ with Antonio Brown and a healthy ET sounds pretty awesome for 2019... Instead of just Russ.

Lol yeah throw In Julio Jones too. Now back to ralitynuou were not going to get Brown and if they thought ET was worth the money they they would have kept him.

 

[KiwiHawk]

The online was ranked in the bottom 5 in pass blocking, Wilson has been one of the top 3 most hit, sacked, pressured and hurried in under 2.5 seconds every year in the league. That is on the online period.

No it's not.

Wilson plays a high-risk, high-reward game when it comes to extending the play. Yes we've had OL problems, but our pass success (holding a block for 2.5 seconds) are not bad. The problem is that our QB's average time to release is longer than average.

Part of that is Wilson's self-confidence that he can avoid the pass rush and make a better play down field than taking a dump-off underneath or throwing it away, and sometimes he gets it wrong. Part of it may be Carroll's mandate that we not turn over the ball, so Wilson waits for larger windows that may or may not open up.

Part of it is the benefit of having a mobile QB, and those extended plays hitting Lockett way down field are daggers in the back of the opposition - particularly when they were so close to catching him.

Take a look at this. At 4:01 Ahmad Brooks (55) has one job, which is to spy Wilson. He moves in thinking he has a sack, gets juked, and ends up on the ground. He gets up and continues pursuit, and gets juked and once more ends up n the ground. At 4:14, he's so demoralized at chasing this ghost that he gets up slowly thinking he's out of the play, but Wilson cuts back across the field to where Brooks could have made the tackle had he got to his feet quickly, and instead Wilson runs for a decent gain, if not a first down.

[youtube]OiV2L_ilK-c[/youtube]

There are two takeaways from this play.

One: Wilson demoralized the opponent with his feet, extending the play.

Two: Wilson takes the snap at 4:03, and finally tucks the ball away at 4:16. There's no OL in the NFL that blocks for 13 seconds. This play isn't a sack, but you get the point - if the QB is going to keep the ball for that long, whether he gets sacked or not has nothing to do with the OL and everything to do with the QB.

So yeah, some (not all by any means) of those sacks are on Russell Wilson. Some are on the OL. Some are due to us regularly playing against some of the best pash-rushing teams in the league.

But sometimes he doesn't get sacked, and those times usually make the highlight reels.

 

[xray]

To be honest ; I have no clue as to how Wilson had been utilized by coaching for along time. I would rather he eat the downs once in awhile than get taxied off the field after a big hit .He's been very lucky in that respect ; but in this league it's a sure thing that he will get laid out eventually . The OL worries me in this regard...weak pass protection.

The risk was higher when he was in his rookie contract years but
since that time the NFL has watered down hitting a lot and QB's are
protected like babies now.
So while he still could get hurt that is anyone playing really..
I don't believe he is as fast and I don't believe he can run like he
used to due to simply age and the amount of hits he has taken
when he was able to run a lot..
His short passing has not gotten any better in all these years..
His getting the ball out is not faster..Blaming the OL when he
goes off script isn't doing it for me..
Why would I want the high priced version for less?

Don't get me wrong ...your right when Wilson changes the play without telling the OL...then that's on Wilson...the fact is that many sacks can be hung on him...It's when he has to flush too soon because the line didn't slow up anybody . They gotta take 50% of the sacks ...just sayin that 51 sacks is not be acceptable . IMO

The oline was ranked in the bottom 5 in pass blocking, Wilson has been one of the top 3 most hit, sacked, pressured and hurried in under 2.5 seconds every year in the league. That is on the online period.

truth

 

[John63]

The online was ranked in the bottom 5 in pass blocking, Wilson has been one of the top 3 most hit, sacked, pressured and hurried in under 2.5 seconds every year in the league. That is on the online period.

No it's not.

Wilson plays a high-risk, high-reward game when it comes to extending the play. Yes we've had OL problems, but our pass success (holding a block for 2.5 seconds) are not bad. The problem is that our QB's average time to release is longer than average.

Part of that is Wilson's self-confidence that he can avoid the pass rush and make a better play down field than taking a dump-off underneath or throwing it away, and sometimes he gets it wrong. Part of it may be Carroll's mandate that we not turn over the ball, so Wilson waits for larger windows that may or may not open up.

Part of it is the benefit of having a mobile QB, and those extended plays hitting Lockett way down field are daggers in the back of the opposition - particularly when they were so close to catching him.

Take a look at this. At 4:01 Ahmad Brooks (55) has one job, which is to spy Wilson. He moves in thinking he has a sack, gets juked, and ends up on the ground. He gets up and continues pursuit, and gets juked and once more ends up n the ground. At 4:14, he's so demoralized at chasing this ghost that he gets up slowly thinking he's out of the play, but Wilson cuts back across the field to where Brooks could have made the tackle had he got to his feet quickly, and instead Wilson runs for a decent gain, if not a first down.

[youtube]OiV2L_ilK-c[/youtube]

There are two takeaways from this play.

One: Wilson demoralized the opponent with his feet, extending the play.

Two: Wilson takes the snap at 4:03, and finally tucks the ball away at 4:16. There's no OL in the NFL that blocks for 13 seconds. This play isn't a sack, but you get the point - if the QB is going to keep the ball for that long, whether he gets sacked or not has nothing to do with the OL and everything to do with the QB.

So yeah, some (not all by any means) of those sacks are on Russell Wilson. Some are on the OL. Some are due to us regularly playing against some of the best pash-rushing teams in the league.

But sometimes he doesn't get sacked, and those times usually make the highlight reels.

So its not the oline fault when he is pressured, hit, hurried or sacked in under 2.5 seconds really? really. Sorry it is on the oline. Now I did not say every sack in on the oline but those are. The ranking that I referred to takes into account a sack were the QB is the problem, so it does not change they are ranked in the bottom 5. Sorry but the oline has never been great at pass blocking. ESPN did a break down of all the sacks and said of the 51 10% were on Wilson that means 5-6. I agree with that, now they did not blame them all on the oline another 10-20% were on the RB or TE. that means about 70% or 35 are on the oline and that is terrible. Now some of this I don't put on the oline as I think the long plays that PC likes to happen put them on an island way to much. However, they know going in they need to hold the block longer.

 

[pehawk]

The online was ranked in the bottom 5 in pass blocking, Wilson has been one of the top 3 most hit, sacked, pressured and hurried in under 2.5 seconds every year in the league. That is on the online period.

No it's not.

Wilson plays a high-risk, high-reward game when it comes to extending the play. Yes we've had OL problems, but our pass success (holding a block for 2.5 seconds) are not bad. The problem is that our QB's average time to release is longer than average.

Part of that is Wilson's self-confidence that he can avoid the pass rush and make a better play down field than taking a dump-off underneath or throwing it away, and sometimes he gets it wrong. Part of it may be Carroll's mandate that we not turn over the ball, so Wilson waits for larger windows that may or may not open up.

Part of it is the benefit of having a mobile QB, and those extended plays hitting Lockett way down field are daggers in the back of the opposition - particularly when they were so close to catching him.

Take a look at this. At 4:01 Ahmad Brooks (55) has one job, which is to spy Wilson. He moves in thinking he has a sack, gets juked, and ends up on the ground. He gets up and continues pursuit, and gets juked and once more ends up n the ground. At 4:14, he's so demoralized at chasing this ghost that he gets up slowly thinking he's out of the play, but Wilson cuts back across the field to where Brooks could have made the tackle had he got to his feet quickly, and instead Wilson runs for a decent gain, if not a first down.

[youtube]OiV2L_ilK-c[/youtube]

There are two takeaways from this play.

One: Wilson demoralized the opponent with his feet, extending the play.

Two: Wilson takes the snap at 4:03, and finally tucks the ball away at 4:16. There's no OL in the NFL that blocks for 13 seconds. This play isn't a sack, but you get the point - if the QB is going to keep the ball for that long, whether he gets sacked or not has nothing to do with the OL and everything to do with the QB.

So yeah, some (not all by any means) of those sacks are on Russell Wilson. Some are on the OL. Some are due to us regularly playing against some of the best pash-rushing teams in the league.

But sometimes he doesn't get sacked, and those times usually make the highlight reels.

This is a great post. Thank you, sir.

 

[KiwiHawk]

So its not the oline fault when he is pressured, hit, hurried or sacked in under 2.5 seconds really? really. Sorry it is on the oline. Now I did not say every sack in on the oline but those are.

That is not at all I said and you are being intellectually dishonest in characterizing it that way. If you want to have meaningful discussion, have respect for me and I will have respect for you. Otherwise, I'm not interested.

The ranking that I referred to takes into account a sack were the QB is the problem, so it does not change they are ranked in the bottom 5. Sorry but the oline has never been great at pass blocking. ESPN did a break down of all the sacks and said of the 51 10% were on Wilson that means 5-6. I agree with that, now they did not blame them all on the oline another 10-20% were on the RB or TE. that means about 70% or 35 are on the oline and that is terrible. Now some of this I don't put on the oline as I think the long plays that PC likes to happen put them on an island way to much. However, they know going in they need to hold the block longer.

Well, this ranking disagrees with you, and these guys are generally pretty good at assembling and analyzing stats:

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-by-pass-blocking-efficiency

Keep in mind that the entire range (discounting the Cardinals because they are a statistical anomaly, which is a statistically valid approach and is not cherry-picking so spare me the bullshit) is between 80.4 and 89.7, so a score of 84.4 is pretty much in the middle, which is not good, but also "not bad", which is the exact phrase I used to describe them.

 

[John63]

So its not the oline fault when he is pressured, hit, hurried or sacked in under 2.5 seconds really? really. Sorry it is on the oline. Now I did not say every sack in on the oline but those are.

That is not at all I said and you are being intellectually dishonest in characterizing it that way. If you want to have meaningful discussion, have respect for me and I will have respect for you. Otherwise, I'm not interested.

The ranking that I referred to takes into account a sack were the QB is the problem, so it does not change they are ranked in the bottom 5. Sorry but the oline has never been great at pass blocking. ESPN did a break down of all the sacks and said of the 51 10% were on Wilson that means 5-6. I agree with that, now they did not blame them all on the oline another 10-20% were on the RB or TE. that means about 70% or 35 are on the oline and that is terrible. Now some of this I don't put on the oline as I think the long plays that PC likes to happen put them on an island way to much. However, they know going in they need to hold the block longer.

Well, this ranking disagrees with you, and these guys are generally pretty good at assembling and analyzing stats:

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-by-pass-blocking-efficiency

Keep in mind that the entire range (discounting the Cardinals because they are a statistical anomaly, which is a statistically valid approach and is not cherry-picking so spare me the bullshit) is between 80.4 and 89.7, so a score of 84.4 is pretty much in the middle, which is not good, but also "not bad", which is the exact phrase I used to describe them.

LOL that is great except you brushed over the fact that for his career here even using this metric they have been bad, And ranked 19th makes them the bottom half of the league. Also good and below is the one I use and feel is very accurate since they take into account things like the QB, the RB, the TE

Notice the rank for pass blocking all the way to the right 30th

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Here is another form Yahoo ranking them 26th

https://sports.yahoo.com/fantasy-qb...nd away the biggest issue in pass protection.