Its not Russ, its not Pete, It wasnt Schotty or Bevell...

keasley45

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Maybe its just the ultimate embodiment of the unique character of this team.

Not to create yet another 'who's fault is it ' thread, but i wanted to post a possible scenario around how and why we are where we are with the team today that doesnt necessarily 'incriminate' anyone, but rather looks at the situation as just a case of trying to work through the gifts and challenges of a very unique circumstance and rare player at QB.

I think we can all use a bit less of the polarizing talk when it comes to Pete vs Schotty (or whoever the OC will now be ) vs Russ and the blame game for who is responsible when we dont succeed. I've certainly been guilty of going down the rabbit hole when it comes to trying to untangle the mess of our season and the last several years. But I think at the end of the day, the reality is that there isnt a 'BAD GUY' in this plot. just a bunch of guys commited to trying to figure out the best way to win.And they are much closer to what's actually going on than we are. The best we can do is look at game film.

Everyone is due their fair share of praise for the success we have seen and responsibility for the challenges.

The two constants in this game are Russ and Pete. The OC, interchangeable - although it would be great if we could get some consistency at the position, the fact that we havent found that is beginning to look like evidence to me for what might really be going on. The team has been trying to figure itself out for a while now and i think what we just finally saw this season was hopefully the last phase of a long, 4 year exploration.

I honestly believe that since the collapse of the LOB and the departure of Lynch, there has been a concerted effort to try to transition the team to RW, both from a leadership perspective, which i think he has done, but also from a scheme perspective, which to date we have struggled with. But ultimately what does that transition to a passing offense look like for such a unique QB.

He's similar in height to D Brees but doesnt have Brees's savant like ability to diagnose a defense and hit 10 different WR a game consistently. Brees overcomes the challenge of maybe not being able to SEE everything by being so enmeshed in the plays that he can run the O with his eyes closed and hit his receivers anywhere on the field so long as they are where they are designed to be. He has a rare and uncanny abiliity in this sense and i'd wager that if there was a NEXT GEN stat that could measure his brain's ability to read and react, / process data, he'd be off the charts.

Russ has come to defeat his issues with his physical stature by moving outside the pocket, releasing the ball and diagnosing plays from a deeper drop, and when all else fails, punishing a defense with is escapability and timely runs. Like Brees, he's incredibly accurate on the long ball and overall in general, when he has the opportunity to see where he's going with the ball. Russ, an uncanny pocket sense. Drew, an uncanny field sense. Again - my observation, not set in stone fact.

But given the above, an offense built around a passing game will by default need to look a bit different for Drew than for Russ. To say that Russ can do what Drew can from a shear technical ability , is in my opinon just as foolish as someone expecting Brees to be able to do what Russ can (nobody in the league can do what he can). And thats not throwing shade on Russ, he's fully capable of executing an offense. Its more praise for Drew because the dude is just that good.

The question is, what does that magical passing game look like for our QB?

Well...

It was apparent that the OC we had when we were built around a legendary defense and sledghammer in ballet shoes in Beastmode, no longer fit the profile for a team that was moving to a more aggressive passing game. He was let go.

What did that more aggressive passing game mean? Nobody knew until this year because nobody had seen RW with reliable running backs and a philosophy that was built around his arm moreso than his legs. We'd come to know him as a QB that could make something out of nothing when the plays didnt go according to plan. He built his legend on improv - turning nothing into a mile long highlight reel of spectacular plays.

But i think MAYBE at some point the improv act which had been just a tool for Russ, whether because of a poor play design, not being able to see receivers, not being able to process reads quickly, or being conditioned through years of HAVING to be ready to break from the scheme due to poor protection and do his own thing, became his default style of play.

So now, enter Schottenheimer, a guy, for all the criticism leveled at him, showed that he could pull together some pretty effectve schemes. I dont know how much responsibility to assign the OC or the QB for the inability to effectively implement a passing game that was diverse in terms of its range of routes and combinations, but the results... well, we saw them. however, i dont think its s a stretch to assume that RW is a contributing factor. He cant NOT be for the adjustments that have to be made for his height alone (deeper drops, slightly longer developing routes). And that's not bashing him at all, it just is what it is.

The question beyond that is how much of his natural tendency to want to move out of the pocket to see routes is absolutely necessary (ie , how much CAN he see at a 3 or 5 step drop from under center or a catch and release from shotgun) vs it just now being how he plays. If its how he's been conditioned to play, then the challenge is re instilling the discipline to run the offense called - essentially reconditioning him to know the field and trust it and on occassion, throw blind to a spot you trust a wr to be. If its vision (he CANT see the field in certain instances) and his ability to analyze a read, post snap iand trust it is severely impaired because his defuault reaction for 9 years has been to get the ball and move, then that's a bit more difficult to overcome. And it could also certainly by both - and likely is.

Either way, now at year 10, then the offensive strategy needs to shift. If he can get his discipline back, he should eventually be able to make the reads and get the ball out quickly. And again, i dont know whether what we saw this year from him (patting the ball, the double clutches, the indecisiveness) was a failure in being able to drop back and 1,2,3 read, react and get the ball out to the open guy in the flow of the offense, or if t was that he was trying to do it but couldnt see, and thus was constantly forced to break pocket and look deeper, which right off the bat negates the playcall and puts the chances of the down succeeding on RW and a given wr's ability to read eachother and connect. however, from what i've seen on tape over 16 weeks, i can say comfortably that although you can criticize Schotty fro maybe not adapting in game with a reasonable quickness or not calling up enough plays to RB's, there were A LOT of plays left on the field. And it could just be that the disconnect between PC and Schotty that led to his firing was a desire on Schotty's part to keep trying down the road of getting RW to function more effectively as a complete passer in the flow of the offense and plays called, getting him to use the whole field. Whereas Pete sees the best path to move the offense and RW forward being to stop trying to push him to do what he now obviously struggles to do and supplement the short pass game quick reads and a more methodical progression down the field, with a more schematically diverse and intentional run game.

And that run game CAN get us where we want to go. If its effective, it sets up all of those incredible passes Russ is known for. On its own, it can be lethal either by virtue of its diversity or its factor of intimidation. Which, depends on who is running the rock. The one thing i will say thats a bit concerning is that even if Carson comes back, between he and Penny, we have a back that is lightning quick through the hole and a bulldozer, but struggles to break long runs and a RB who dances too much in finding the holes, but can take it to the house on any given play if he breaks the first line of defense. Because they are so different, WHEN we deploy them in a game can be a tell as to what we want to do. If chris is in we are a bit more diverse, although he doesnt have great long or edge speed. When Penny is in, its likely going outside. What we need to really help Russ is either a scheme that can leverage both styles effectively, or a different back altogether. Someone like Jones in GB or conceptually the tandems that Cleveland or KC run. In the case of KC and Cleveland, either back can go inside or outside, but they each have their obvious strengths.

If you cant draw up short to middle pass plays, you have to develop a combination of longer developing passes and screens with a FAST running attack that is effective on the edges early in games and a PUNISHING one up the middle late. Gaining 5 yards consistently on swing plays, and runs off tackle forces defenses to play the width of the field. I think its why we saw the hawks constantly trying to establish the edge running game even though they knew they could reliably get 3.5 ypc between the tackles. without a consistent threat to spread the d-line and backers out, the field gets small for both runs and passes. And even harder for a shorter QB to fit the ball into tight openings.

The running game, and a well designed one that stretches the defense and punishes it seems to me to not be simply the preference of a head coach, but if any of the above is remotely true, pretty much necessary in getting RW back on the track to success.

this post is wayyyy too long but thats only because the challenges the team now faces (and i guess has faced all along) are complex and not as cut and dry as letting Russ cook, or keeping Pete out of a playbook, Russ being broken, or the OC being a dud. There's a ton that Pete and the coordinators are looking at on O to unlock the potential of this team. Some of it is in just unlocking (not unleashing) Russ, some of it is scheme, some of it, personnel and all of it doable.

We've been quick to condemn coaches and players for the failures to date but in all honesty, like everything else about the franchise, the difficulty in finding the ultimate success over the last few years is like everything else around this team, due to the fact that the circumstances are just sooo unique. Starting with the QB. And thats a blessing and a curse. But it is what it is. Cant believe i'm about to say this but it genuinely in this case really is all about the process and evolving.

I'm confident we will get there.
 

AgentDib

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Very reasonable post and points. I think you are particularly correct about it not being about Pete vs. Russ, but rather how Pete plus Russ can continue to find success. I also agree completely that there were plays to be had on the field that we just weren't taking for some reason.

keasley45":yzf26ntr said:
then the challenge is re instilling the discipline to run the offense called - essentially reconditioning him to know the field and trust it and on occassion, throw blind to a spot you trust a wr to be
I don't think Pete would be comfortable with Russ throwing blind, per say. Timing routes in general and throwing WRs open is okay, and there is a lot of safe stuff you can do in the short/intermediate passing game - unless the ball getting tipped by a defensive lineman is a major concern. I'm not sure why we weren't more heavily utilizing TE/WR slants in particular. We saw a couple of nice ones to DK and Olsen and then that was mostly it.
 

Fade

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It's Pete. He is the skipper of this ship, if he doesn't like what's going on he changes it. Someone steps out of line, they're gone. He has more power than any other coach in the NFL. Belichick has just as much power, but Pete has the advantage of no ownership accountability. Pete is pretty much the owner of the Seahawks as it pertains to football operations.

No one can tell him "No."
 
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keasley45

keasley45

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Fade":1br39x47 said:
It's Pete. He is the skipper of this ship, if he doesn't like what's going on he changes it. Someone steps out of line, they're gone. He has more power than any other coach in the NFL. Belichick has just as much power, but Pete has the advantage of no ownership accountability. Pete is pretty much the owner of the Seahawks as it pertains to football operations.

No one can tell him "No."

Ok then. Cool. Problem solved. So let's either strip him of his totalitarian authority, or just fire him.

S.O.
 

QuahHawk

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Great post, I think you have some very valid points and I stickied because everyone should read this.
 

chris98251

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The Saints blocking scheme is set up to create lanes for Brees, we don't do pass protection we maul and hope no holding calls.

Our line has some of the worst back peddle I have ever seen and it is year in and year out, these guys drive and wait for guys to get to them, rarely see them shadow out DE's.

That's why Wilson has to wait for a clearing for short routes and may not see the open guys we all see.

He is also looking for the splash play Pete likes.
 
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keasley45

keasley45

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Read the piece in the Athletic by Schiel Kapadia if yiu can. He references statistics that show that Seattle's o line was well in the top half of the league in pass pro. And the metric basically determines whether an o line can provide reasonable protection for what's deemed adequate time for a qb to get the ball out ( based on league avg). So the narrative about the hawks not being able to protect russel is false.

Kapadia also notes that Russ looked thoroughly confused in trying to run the offense and that his passer rating got worse throughout the season even when he had adequate protection.

And as far as blocking is concerned. The only teams seattle really struggled to protect against were the highly ranked defenses in the last half of the season. If we don't use the eye test ( which can't always determine from the telecast when the ball should have come out in a qb's progression) and use the metrics the pros use to determine ewhether there was a reliable pocket long enough for the avg qb to release the ball, the fault for taking so many sacks begins to shift to the qb. The ball needs to come out. And the film review that was posted in the forum by 8 forget who shows that. The tendency to hold the ball and appear confused was not unique to the rams game.

Was he confused because he didn't like the call and didn't want to throw? Did Schotty's gameplans not give him confidence? Because he missed a read? Because he was shell shocked by pressure, or fear of the INTs?

As to the lanes o lines can open. It's a catch 22. Lanes are a result of a defense being forced to protect the entire field. If you aren't a threat to hit the edges in your run game or short game, a d line can be a bit more compact in their sets. If that's how the d line is playing, then it's going to be hard in basically 2.5 seconds for even the most gifted o line to shift them to create lanes. If you want to pass more reliably, it helps to run reliably.

As a reference, GB, which I think everyone would assume is a passing team, ran the ball more than we did.

The lanes are more a byproduct of an offense that forces the D to open up. Which is why it's imperative that we have a legit run game to keep defenses honest and help the o line to establish throwing lanes. Especially if your QB isn't 6'4.
 
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keasley45

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I also don't understand the consistent assignment of blame to Pete when it's been established over and over again that Russ was given the obvious read, the obvious open wr, and didn't throw or threw the wrong guy. That's what needs to be figured out.

But to say that Russ, trying to pick up a first down, has a guy right in front of him, with first down yardage, decides to toss up a 50/50 ball because Pete told him basically to shun continuing drives for triple covered bombs... we can do better than that.

Pete has been on record throughout the season and after the playoff loss stating that the offense needs to 'take the underneath stuff' and not just throw bombs all over the place.
 

fire_marshall_bill

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I didn't read the whole o. post, but Brian's offenses put up good numbers. I never liked Bevell, so it was him, but Brian's a scapegoat.

It's Pete. It's hard to sit here and criticize a guy who just won 12 games, but they lost pretty decisively to the Lambs and they beat up a lot of bad and average teams this year.
 

hoxrox

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Sure there are some physical limitations, but I've also seen Russ work the entire field efficiently before. This season, I think it is more mental. If you listen to Russ' interviews, he's always talking about GAP plays - or game altering plays. It seems to me he is insistent on these big plays to change the outcome of a game.

This is a reason why he does not dink and dunk or take what the defense allows. Perhaps it is not "game-altering" enough. Russ is a hero baller by nature.
 

chris98251

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keasley45":fw7a2dav said:
Read the piece in the Athletic by Schiel Kapadia if yiu can. He references statistics that show that Seattle's o line was well in the top half of the league in pass pro. And the metric basically determines whether an o line can provide reasonable protection for what's deemed adequate time for a qb to get the ball out ( based on league avg). So the narrative about the hawks not being able to protect russel is false.

Kapadia also notes that Russ looked thoroughly confused in trying to run the offense and that his passer rating got worse throughout the season even when he had adequate protection.

And as far as blocking is concerned. The only teams seattle really struggled to protect against were the highly ranked defenses in the last half of the season. If we don't use the eye test ( which can't always determine from the telecast when the ball should have come out in a qb's progression) and use the metrics the pros use to determine ewhether there was a reliable pocket long enough for the avg qb to release the ball, the fault for taking so many sacks begins to shift to the qb. The ball needs to come out. And the film review that was posted in the forum by 8 forget who shows that. The tendency to hold the ball and appear confused was not unique to the rams game.

Was he confused because he didn't like the call and didn't want to throw? Did Schotty's gameplans not give him confidence? Because he missed a read? Because he was shell shocked by pressure, or fear of the INTs?

As to the lanes o lines can open. It's a catch 22. Lanes are a result of a defense being forced to protect the entire field. If you aren't a threat to hit the edges in your run game or short game, a d line can be a bit more compact in their sets. If that's how the d line is playing, then it's going to be hard in basically 2.5 seconds for even the most gifted o line to shift them to create lanes. If you want to pass more reliably, it helps to run reliably.

As a reference, GB, which I think everyone would assume is a passing team, ran the ball more than we did.

The lanes are more a byproduct of an offense that forces the D to open up. Which is why it's imperative that we have a legit run game to keep defenses honest and help the o line to establish throwing lanes. Especially if your QB isn't 6'4.

Sorry, I can see players play and don't need a hack to tell me what to think, Our O line has really had footwork and shadow ability Wilson makes them better and worse at the same time with his mobility.

People need to watch more and understand what they are seeing, not what a hack tells them to think.

Again excuses for passing lanes, the Saints have been doing it for years with Brees. You clear an lane by moving or shading defender to go or be moved to an area, Brees gets the ball out quickly and uses underneath routes and crossing patterns also, we rarely do.
 
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keasley45

keasley45

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The idea that an effective running game with speed on the edges doesn't help to open passing lanes is, well, I don't know.

It's simple football. Same as when a defense doesn't believe you can run the ball effectively, they drop into heavy coverage packages that paralyze a passing game.

Since 2007, with the exception of 2013, the saints leading rusher over a season has not averaged less than 4.3 yards per carry.

And kapadia is neither a hack, nor did he compile the stats that assessed the performance of the hawks o line this year. Pro statisticians did.
 
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keasley45

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And I don't disagree that they have had some lack luster games.

But there's so much wrapped up in this that all we can do is assess each piece and try to get a grasp of the bigger picture.

Also agree that russel helps and hurts the o line.

And all of this is why we are where we are. Yiu cant evaluate a n o coordinator or o line if the plays aren't run as designed. Yes, Schotty could have adjusted better, AND he often called plays that shoukd have worked.

You also can't expect a qb who in seasons past, had to run for his life to stand a chance to make a play and is hyper fearful of the int to maybe trust everything he sees.

Nor can you blame a coach who is looking at a season where his team tried to pass themselves to success and through a tough spell and failed, for rightfully believing that guven the cluster thst the offense is and all the contributing circumstances, That the best way to calm things down and hit reset is to try to force defenses to honor our run game.
 
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keasley45

keasley45

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hoxrox":2ia8p02p said:
Sure there are some physical limitations, but I've also seen Russ work the entire field efficiently before. This season, I think it is more mental. If you listen to Russ' interviews, he's always talking about GAP plays - or game altering plays. It seems to me he is insistent on these big plays to change the outcome of a game.

This is a reason why he does not dink and dunk or take what the defense allows. Perhaps it is not "game-altering" enough. Russ is a hero baller by nature.

agree that his preference is certainly part of the problem.
 

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keasley45":2qcpbpc8 said:
Fade":2qcpbpc8 said:
It's Pete. He is the skipper of this ship, if he doesn't like what's going on he changes it. Someone steps out of line, they're gone. He has more power than any other coach in the NFL. Belichick has just as much power, but Pete has the advantage of no ownership accountability. Pete is pretty much the owner of the Seahawks as it pertains to football operations.

No one can tell him "No."

Ok then. Cool. Problem solved. So let's either strip him of his totalitarian authority, or just fire him.

S.O.


Problem not solved, that's Fade's point.

It is Pete, so you can spin this however you want but this is Pete's team, every nook and cranny of the organization from top to bottom is exactly in Pete's control.

There is no solution, other than hope the stars align and we can get lucky and win another SB despite Pete's meddling in his plain vanilla predictable offensive philosophies with whoever the next yes man O-coordinator he hires is.

Use whatever circular logic you want to, it's Pete.
 

sdog1981

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The iceberg moment that needs to be taken into account is the lack of ownership this team has. This is how the 49ers crashed after DeBartolo left the team.

Pete needs a reality check and I don't know if the current ownership group will be the ones to do it.

As for Schotty vs Bevell. Bevell was god awful, with Lynch as a running back the team was only scoring TDs on 50% of red zone trips, which was ranked around 20th. With Schotty the Hawks are up to 3rd with TDs on 73% of red zone trips. Schotty is one of the best red zone play-callers in the league, that alone should get him a second job.
 

jammerhawk

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Fade":2garxfgn said:
It's Pete. He is the skipper of this ship, if he doesn't like what's going on he changes it. Someone steps out of line, they're gone. He has more power than any other coach in the NFL. Belichick has just as much power, but Pete has the advantage of no ownership accountability. Pete is pretty much the owner of the Seahawks as it pertains to football operations.

No one can tell him "No."

No one can tell him "NO", really? I think that's nonsense. It is another of the Pete is a superman HC nonsense refrains, when common sense reality would tell you what you suggest is not likely or reasonable either.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but rather frankly I very much doubt you could take Pete's authority as far as you suggest. What is Pete to be accountable for anyway? His team as 'Emperor Pete' won 12 games this season and 11 last season, the team also won the NFC-W and 4 of 6 Divisional games in the toughest division in the NFL? Or is it because you'd rather see a different style O, another DC, or a different QB? I'd think for the most part the ownership of the team is quite happy with the direction of the team and with Pete, as they just renewed his contract.

The team by most metrics is a successful football team and has some ease in acquiring FA players, you just think Pete has not become a modern coach, many would disagree.
 

DarkVictory23

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I don't agree necessarily that it's 'not Pete' because we have problems from a game management standpoint that are beyond whether our offense doesn't adjust, adjusts poorly, or whatever. So, on that alone, Pete doesn't deserve a pass. (I never thought he should get one on that stuff, even when we were going to back-to-back Super Bowls, but that definitely buys you breathing room.)

I agree, though, that our offensive failures in the second half of the season were a group effort.

Russell clearly kept trying to 'find' the 50 yard read even when there was no 50-yard play to be found. This has always been a part of his nature, which fine, to some degree. I want my QB to want to take shots. My all-time favorite 'Hawk (Hasselbeck) liked to take some dangerous shots downfield. And Russell probably has the best arm/deep ball in the league, so any offensive scheme that doesn't give him those shots is by nature suspect. But you take a preference, turn it into a habit, and then throw in the MVP convo when it seemed like Wilson turned it into a crutch to try and get himself on SportsCenter and you have a real problem.

Pete clearly got involved in changing an offense in mid-season. He admitted it. You have an offense that was setting the league on fire, you hit a snag with Russell's performance in a couple of games, and you go and undermine your OC. That's not going to help. Pete doesn't really have an offensive acumen to speak-of (outside of if we ram the ball down the throats of the other team and don't turn it over, we should be close enough for Russ to hero-ball us out of whatever deficit we have in the 4th quarter... which, unfortunately, only serves to reinforce Russell's hero-ball habits), so him trying to take-over the offense to run Pete ball hurt the team. Add on when he decides to try and take over play calls mid-game (which seems to NEVER work and only leads to penalties) and his obvious penchant for running out the clock on ourselves and it's no wonder our O has trouble finding a rhythm.

As for Schottenheimer... it's hard to know what exactly is his problem vs. Pete, but our unimaginativeness and inability to adapt to what Ds are doing during the game has to be on him to some degree. Additionally, I think our play calling on the rushing side of the ball is unbelievably unimaginative. We need to be more flexible in our formations. We need more strong rushing formations and we need to be willing to rush and pass out of those formations and not line up in shotgun trips for essentially everything we do.
 

LTH

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at keasley45

That is the most intelligent well thought out post I've read on this board in 5 years...


LTH
 
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