This year's defense historically bad

[IndyHawk]

Just love seeing the (put the cap space into the D)
I and others always said"Defense wins Championships".
People screamed about the D getting paid too much.
Now some of them are wanting it back lol.
Until they cap off the positions we are always going to
have spots where you have garbage.
Fade can try to do a cap work up that fixes it all he
wants but the salaries/cap system is a wreck.

 

[truehawksfan]

There’s a lot to unpack. Here’s my 2 cents.

Diggs plays a huge role. PC depends on quality Safety play. T2 and Hill are not the answer.
Someone mentioned the quality of play went up with Diggs in the line up. Makes sense, because he plays high safety the way it should be played. Like ET, he diagnoses plays quick. He offers support on deep routes. T2 was awful. Got beat deep all the time. Norton had to protect his CBs. Flowers would back peddle before the snap giving WRs open spaces because of T2. The step kick. With Diggs in, the CBs played more step kick. Stayed close, not giving up on short routes. Giving our DL time to get to the QB. Guess how many sacks Green picked up with Diggs in the line up?

We really miss Justin Coleman
This is a reason why we play with 3 LBs. We just don’t have a quality nickel. Kendricks is fast, but so was Malcolm Smith. But, Smith was a better cover player.

We need, quick twitch rushers.
PC always said, you never have enough speed rushers. And, he’s right. We had 3 quick twitch rushers in our SB winning year. Plus, Mike Bennett as a wild card. This year, only one.

We need a tree truck DT on run downs.
Mebane. Branch. McDaniel. Rubin. This team always had DTs who would eat double teams for lunch. This freed up our LBs to make plays. Last year we brought in Shamar Stephen. This year Al Woods. I think Woods is a good player but so are Ford and Reed. They’re all known as good run stoppers but somethings not right. Maybe a new Dline coach?

But, that said, we’ll still 11-5.

We have lots of cap space and draft picks. Should get this fixed in 2020.

 

[Largent80]

The Line is the only place on defense in need of players.

The line on offense will need to be addressed at EVERY position because of F.A, age, and depth.

O-line definitely needs to be addressed, but other than Wagner and maybe Griffin and Diggs the defense needs playmakers at all three levels.

Wright is gone, so might be Kendricks if his injury is as severe as Pete said it was............and still need corners and a thumper at SS. McDougald is fine, but he's not the long term solution at SS, and Blair hasn't proven he is either.

Amadi at nickel? Still haven't seen him flash enough to trust him there long term, same with Flowers.

So yeah, if you'd like us to be mediocre to bad again on defense, just bring back all the guys from this year.

NO...Who says Wright is gone?..YOU??, you aren't the GM. Kendricks still hasn't been sentenced and has an Acl. HE'S THE ONE THAT'S GONE (imo)...

McDougald is still young and Is a very decent SS. We don't even know what Amadi is since the staff will hardly play him or Blair..... Instead Pete trots out Akeem King. ..Slot CB will need to be addressed. It won't happen in the draft because we drafted one (Amadi), and Pete won't play him. Since Diggs arrival, Blair will develop and will be the guy at FS if Diggs gets injured.

Hill ,King ,and Thompson are ass. (IMO)

The LINE is where this team get's beat week in and week out. This will be the main focus. I'm hoping they can add a guy like Fowler, sign Clowney and Reed. Offer Jefferson a small but decent contract then either trade or draft interior DL. The line in it's current state is one of the worst in the league and also helps make secondary players look like ass. This will be the focal point this off season....yet AGAIN.

 

[LTH]

6106 total yards allowed, the 2nd most in franchise history. Only the 2000 team allowed more with 6391

6.0 yards per play, the second most in franchise history.



These numbers per Tim Booth in this morning's column.



For all the criticisms of Pete I read here, the ones calling him out on the regression of the defense is the most valid based on these numbers (and the eye test) imo.

How long do you think it should take to replace :

Richard Sherman
Kam chancellor
Earl Thomas
Cliff avril


is it reasonable to think those players could be replaced with the same quality of players say with in 2 years?

LTH

 

[Sgt. Largent]

The Line is the only place on defense in need of players.

The line on offense will need to be addressed at EVERY position because of F.A, age, and depth.

O-line definitely needs to be addressed, but other than Wagner and maybe Griffin and Diggs the defense needs playmakers at all three levels.

Wright is gone, so might be Kendricks if his injury is as severe as Pete said it was............and still need corners and a thumper at SS. McDougald is fine, but he's not the long term solution at SS, and Blair hasn't proven he is either.

Amadi at nickel? Still haven't seen him flash enough to trust him there long term, same with Flowers.

So yeah, if you'd like us to be mediocre to bad again on defense, just bring back all the guys from this year.

NO...Who says Wright is gone?..YOU??, you aren't the GM. Kendricks still hasn't been sentenced and has an Acl. HE'S THE ONE THAT'S GONE (imo)...

McDougald is still young and Is a very decent SS. We don't even know what Amadi is since the staff will hardly play him or Blair..... Slot CB will need to be addressed. It won't happen in the draft because we drafted one (Amadi), and Pete won't play him. Since Diggs arrival, Blair will develop and will be the guy at FS if Diggs gets injured. Instead Pete trots out Akeem King.

Hill ,King ,and Thompson are ass. (IMO)

The LINE is where this team get's beat week in and week out. This will be the main focus. I'm hoping they can add a guy like Fowler, sign Clowney and Reed. Offer Jefferson a small but decent contract then either trade or draft interior DL. The line in it's current state is one of the worst in the league and also helps make secondary players look like ass. This will be the focal point this off season....yet AGAIN.

Maybe John and Pete will keep KJ next year, but do you think he's worth 10M he's due in 2020?

I don't. Pete's defense is predicated on all three LB spots performing at a very high level with how much responsibility they have in this scheme, and sorry but KJ's just an average LB now, and certainly at a spot where we need to get younger and faster.

Same with Kendricks, he's been fine, but not great.

My point is all three levels need addressing in free agency and the draft. I'm not OK with just bringing back the same guys, that's not good enough if you're trying to get the D back to a top 10 defense.

 

[LastRideOut]

This thread is interesting. This defense might be "historically bad", but to the eyes, it is not. The Seahawks aren't giving up big over the top plays like what happened under Holmgren in '08 and Mora in '09. Those defenses were much worse. Greg Jennings anyone?

I'd this this iteration of the defense with Diggs over the '08 and '09 defenses.

 

[chris98251]

This thread is interesting. This defense might be "historically bad", but to the eyes, it is not. The Seahawks aren't giving up big over the top plays like what happened under Holmgren in '08 and Mora in '09. Those defenses were much worse. Greg Jennings anyone?

I'd this this iteration of the defense with Diggs over the '08 and '09 defenses.

What team have you been watching, insert T2 or Hill and we get burned over the top, it has happened more this season then any other I can remember under Pete, Why Diggs made such a difference right away.

 

[Largent80]

The Line is the only place on defense in need of players.

The line on offense will need to be addressed at EVERY position because of F.A, age, and depth.

O-line definitely needs to be addressed, but other than Wagner and maybe Griffin and Diggs the defense needs playmakers at all three levels.

Wright is gone, so might be Kendricks if his injury is as severe as Pete said it was............and still need corners and a thumper at SS. McDougald is fine, but he's not the long term solution at SS, and Blair hasn't proven he is either.

Amadi at nickel? Still haven't seen him flash enough to trust him there long term, same with Flowers.

So yeah, if you'd like us to be mediocre to bad again on defense, just bring back all the guys from this year.

NO...Who says Wright is gone?..YOU??, you aren't the GM. Kendricks still hasn't been sentenced and has an Acl. HE'S THE ONE THAT'S GONE (imo)...

McDougald is still young and Is a very decent SS. We don't even know what Amadi is since the staff will hardly play him or Blair..... Slot CB will need to be addressed. It won't happen in the draft because we drafted one (Amadi), and Pete won't play him. Since Diggs arrival, Blair will develop and will be the guy at FS if Diggs gets injured. Instead Pete trots out Akeem King.

Hill ,King ,and Thompson are ass. (IMO)

The LINE is where this team get's beat week in and week out. This will be the main focus. I'm hoping they can add a guy like Fowler, sign Clowney and Reed. Offer Jefferson a small but decent contract then either trade or draft interior DL. The line in it's current state is one of the worst in the league and also helps make secondary players look like ass. This will be the focal point this off season....yet AGAIN.

Maybe John and Pete will keep KJ next year, but do you think he's worth 10M he's due in 2020?

I don't. Pete's defense is predicated on all three LB spots performing at a very high level with how much responsibility they have in this scheme, and sorry but KJ's just an average LB now, and certainly at a spot where we need to get younger and faster.

Same with Kendricks, he's been fine, but not great.

My point is all three levels need addressing in free agency and the draft. I'm not OK with just bringing back the same guys, that's not good enough if you're trying to get the D back to a top 10 defense.

Once again, you didn't offer any fixes to what you perceive a problem. Unless you think Wright is the problem on D. Evidently you didn't see him planting 9ers into the turf.

THE FRIGGIN LINE IS A gigantic WEAKNESS. It's so obvious. No quick twitch guy on the opposite side of Clowney. It was the same the previous year with Clark. Clark BTW was middling for KC. Reed was a shell of 2018. Jefferson was the best we had.

You'll see JS will address this big time. They used that base 3 LB defense based on their feeling they had the best LB crew. It wasn't and they were also hoping their Safeties would play better. They DIDN'T so they traded for Diggs. At that point (when he actually started playing) they started playing like a complete D.

Without Diggs they sucked ASS.

 

[lukerguy]

The secondary isn't the problem. With Diggs back there, they now have a championship secondary. It's not the best, but it's above average. The have a lot of problems covering intermediate routes (LBs), and stopping the run (LBs/DLine) of late. You've got LBs out there to ensure you don't leak in the run game- I totally get that philosophically, but if you make that stance, you must be stout against opposing RBs, and they are anything but that in the 2nd half.

There is one miracle fix to this- getting better talent on DLINE. They've got more cap space to work with this offseason than ever before. Look for them to grab a few dline.

One thing that I'd wish that they'd figure out, is that it doesn't matter if you have a 3rd string TE (like hollister was to start the year), it doesn't matter if you have mediocre WRs, if you can block for Russ and run the ball- he will put together points. Stop putting draft capital into offensive players in the first 2 rounds- draft stud DLINE guys.. hell, trade up if you need to. Or, if you're going to trade your 1st, don't do it for offensive guys, do it for guys like Von Miller. Don't sign 30 year old , no rushing, LBs to $8MM a year.

The cap issues from previous years hurt.. Next year they should be able to improve dramatically. I just hope they get rid of Norton.

 

[Largent80]

The secondary isn't the problem. With Diggs back there, they now have a championship secondary. It's not the best, but it's above average. The have a lot of problems covering intermediate routes (LBs), and stopping the run (LBs/DLine) of late. You've got LBs out there to ensure you don't leak in the run game- I totally get that philosophically, but if you make that stance, you must be stout against opposing RBs, and they are anything but that in the 2nd half.

There is one miracle fix to this- getting better talent on DLINE. They've got more cap space to work with this offseason than ever before. Look for them to grab a few dline.

One thing that I'd wish that they'd figure out, is that it doesn't matter if you have a 3rd string TE (like hollister was to start the year), it doesn't matter if you have mediocre WRs, if you can block for Russ and run the ball- he will put together points. Stop putting draft capital into offensive players in the first 2 rounds- draft stud DLINE guys.. hell, trade up if you need to. Or, if you're going to trade your 1st, don't do it for offensive guys, do it for guys like Von Miller. Don't sign 30 year old , no rushing, LBs to $8MM a year.

The cap issues from previous years hurt.. Next year they should be able to improve dramatically. I just hope they get rid of Norton.

LOL, you list the lack of credible players then want the coach fired. What is it? Players or coach?

 

[Sgt. Largent]

O-line definitely needs to be addressed, but other than Wagner and maybe Griffin and Diggs the defense needs playmakers at all three levels.

Wright is gone, so might be Kendricks if his injury is as severe as Pete said it was............and still need corners and a thumper at SS. McDougald is fine, but he's not the long term solution at SS, and Blair hasn't proven he is either.

Amadi at nickel? Still haven't seen him flash enough to trust him there long term, same with Flowers.

So yeah, if you'd like us to be mediocre to bad again on defense, just bring back all the guys from this year.

NO...Who says Wright is gone?..YOU??, you aren't the GM. Kendricks still hasn't been sentenced and has an Acl. HE'S THE ONE THAT'S GONE (imo)...

McDougald is still young and Is a very decent SS. We don't even know what Amadi is since the staff will hardly play him or Blair..... Slot CB will need to be addressed. It won't happen in the draft because we drafted one (Amadi), and Pete won't play him. Since Diggs arrival, Blair will develop and will be the guy at FS if Diggs gets injured. Instead Pete trots out Akeem King.

Hill ,King ,and Thompson are ass. (IMO)

The LINE is where this team get's beat week in and week out. This will be the main focus. I'm hoping they can add a guy like Fowler, sign Clowney and Reed. Offer Jefferson a small but decent contract then either trade or draft interior DL. The line in it's current state is one of the worst in the league and also helps make secondary players look like ass. This will be the focal point this off season....yet AGAIN.

Maybe John and Pete will keep KJ next year, but do you think he's worth 10M he's due in 2020?

I don't. Pete's defense is predicated on all three LB spots performing at a very high level with how much responsibility they have in this scheme, and sorry but KJ's just an average LB now, and certainly at a spot where we need to get younger and faster.

Same with Kendricks, he's been fine, but not great.

My point is all three levels need addressing in free agency and the draft. I'm not OK with just bringing back the same guys, that's not good enough if you're trying to get the D back to a top 10 defense.

Once again, you didn't offer any fixes to what you perceive a problem. Unless you think Wright is the problem on D. Evidently you didn't see him planting 9ers into the turf..

My fix is to draft and spend serious cap space in free agency next year addressing all three levels. Apparently you're just fine with our LB's, I'm not.

 

[Largent80]

NO...Who says Wright is gone?..YOU??, you aren't the GM. Kendricks still hasn't been sentenced and has an Acl. HE'S THE ONE THAT'S GONE (imo)...

McDougald is still young and Is a very decent SS. We don't even know what Amadi is since the staff will hardly play him or Blair..... Slot CB will need to be addressed. It won't happen in the draft because we drafted one (Amadi), and Pete won't play him. Since Diggs arrival, Blair will develop and will be the guy at FS if Diggs gets injured. Instead Pete trots out Akeem King.

Hill ,King ,and Thompson are ass. (IMO)

The LINE is where this team get's beat week in and week out. This will be the main focus. I'm hoping they can add a guy like Fowler, sign Clowney and Reed. Offer Jefferson a small but decent contract then either trade or draft interior DL. The line in it's current state is one of the worst in the league and also helps make secondary players look like ass. This will be the focal point this off season....yet AGAIN.

Maybe John and Pete will keep KJ next year, but do you think he's worth 10M he's due in 2020?

I don't. Pete's defense is predicated on all three LB spots performing at a very high level with how much responsibility they have in this scheme, and sorry but KJ's just an average LB now, and certainly at a spot where we need to get younger and faster.

Same with Kendricks, he's been fine, but not great.

My point is all three levels need addressing in free agency and the draft. I'm not OK with just bringing back the same guys, that's not good enough if you're trying to get the D back to a top 10 defense.

Once again, you didn't offer any fixes to what you perceive a problem. Unless you think Wright is the problem on D. Evidently you didn't see him planting 9ers into the turf..

My fix is to draft and spend serious cap space in free agency next year addressing all three levels. Apparently you're just fine with our LB's, I'm not.

How do you spend "serious cap space" in FA when you have a center with a torn acl, a RT as a FA, the 2 guards aging and one an FA and your LT a 33 year old?...Not to mention your best DL is a FA. Your best NT is a FA,....Your best backup OL tackle is FA...Explain where all this mysterious money comes from.

 

[lukerguy]

The secondary isn't the problem. With Diggs back there, they now have a championship secondary. It's not the best, but it's above average. The have a lot of problems covering intermediate routes (LBs), and stopping the run (LBs/DLine) of late. You've got LBs out there to ensure you don't leak in the run game- I totally get that philosophically, but if you make that stance, you must be stout against opposing RBs, and they are anything but that in the 2nd half.

There is one miracle fix to this- getting better talent on DLINE. They've got more cap space to work with this offseason than ever before. Look for them to grab a few dline.

One thing that I'd wish that they'd figure out, is that it doesn't matter if you have a 3rd string TE (like hollister was to start the year), it doesn't matter if you have mediocre WRs, if you can block for Russ and run the ball- he will put together points. Stop putting draft capital into offensive players in the first 2 rounds- draft stud DLINE guys.. hell, trade up if you need to. Or, if you're going to trade your 1st, don't do it for offensive guys, do it for guys like Von Miller. Don't sign 30 year old , no rushing, LBs to $8MM a year.

The cap issues from previous years hurt.. Next year they should be able to improve dramatically. I just hope they get rid of Norton.

LOL, you list the lack of credible players then want the coach fired. What is it? Players or coach?

When you have a bottom 5 defense it's both, my dude.

DLINE and Norton are the biggest issues.

 

[Largent80]

Jeezus. This is Pete Carrolls defense and has been for 10 years. Norton is a happy placeholder. Only people that haven't been around this team for a decade would argue otherwise.
When you have a depleted DL and OL you have jack squat. Yet Pete Carroll has found a way to the playoffs yet AGAIN and somehow it isn't good enough.

Explain how Norton is the problem...Please be specific.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Maybe John and Pete will keep KJ next year, but do you think he's worth 10M he's due in 2020?

I don't. Pete's defense is predicated on all three LB spots performing at a very high level with how much responsibility they have in this scheme, and sorry but KJ's just an average LB now, and certainly at a spot where we need to get younger and faster.

Same with Kendricks, he's been fine, but not great.

My point is all three levels need addressing in free agency and the draft. I'm not OK with just bringing back the same guys, that's not good enough if you're trying to get the D back to a top 10 defense.

Once again, you didn't offer any fixes to what you perceive a problem. Unless you think Wright is the problem on D. Evidently you didn't see him planting 9ers into the turf..

My fix is to draft and spend serious cap space in free agency next year addressing all three levels. Apparently you're just fine with our LB's, I'm not.

How do you spend "serious cap space" in FA when you have a center with a torn acl, a RT as a FA, the 2 guards aging and one an FA and your LT a 33 year old?...Not to mention your best DL is a FA. Your best NT is a FA,....Your best backup OL tackle is FA...Explain where all this mysterious money comes from.

Well, we have 66M in cap space next year. I'd say that pretty serious. Cut KJ, that's another 10M.

Plenty of cap and draft capital to address the O-line and defensive holes. Not sure why you're making this a D-line ONLY issue. We need playmakers and depth all over the defense.

 

[Largent80]

Once again, you didn't offer any fixes to what you perceive a problem. Unless you think Wright is the problem on D. Evidently you didn't see him planting 9ers into the turf..

My fix is to draft and spend serious cap space in free agency next year addressing all three levels. Apparently you're just fine with our LB's, I'm not.

How do you spend "serious cap space" in FA when you have a center with a torn acl, a RT as a FA, the 2 guards aging and one an FA and your LT a 33 year old?...Not to mention your best DL is a FA. Your best NT is a FA,....Your best backup OL tackle is FA...Explain where all this mysterious money comes from.

Well, we have 66M in cap space next year. I'd say that pretty serious. Cut KJ, that's another 10M.

Plenty of cap and draft capital to address the O-line and defensive holes. Not sure why you're making this a D-line ONLY issue. We need playmakers and depth all over the defense.

I'm not making it anything more than what the defense has done. Which isn't much. They can't pass rush, they can't stop the run, so it all starts up front. Can't blame the LB's and secondary if people come running full speed at them. You have no miraculous fixes except to spend dollars that aren't going to be available to sign all the players.....So c'mon JS jr. let's hear your grand plan since you want to diminish everything I pointed out as factual.

 

[scutterhawk]

LB is a clear need Wags and KJ are past it . I would not be opposed to drafting a LB with out first pick.

Ahh wags led LBs in tackles, and KJ led LBs in ints

That's good to hear but there not getting any younger bro. They don't play as physical game in game out as they used to and they have both lost a step. LB has to be seriously addressed it's just common sense. Barton and BBK are not the answer . Second worst defense in franchise history let that sink in.

It's a team game, Wagner and KJ were just fine, but the defensive line has been putrid and our secondary play without Diggs pathetic.
Wagner is still only 29 and has at least 4-5 years of high level play left in him. Getting rid of him now would be as stupid as getting rid of Sherman or Thomas, both who have proved they are far from beyond their best, and (coincidentally?) playing for the top seeds in each of their conferences.

This was my exact thoughts also; Just having Diggs back there should clue EVERYONE IN HERE, that the LOB was the reason that Wagner & KJ were having so much success securing the intermediate, which let the D-Line concentrate on their assignments.
Everyone scrambling out of their usual area of expertise...See how moving Shaq back to the other side this year played to his strengths.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

My fix is to draft and spend serious cap space in free agency next year addressing all three levels. Apparently you're just fine with our LB's, I'm not.

How do you spend "serious cap space" in FA when you have a center with a torn acl, a RT as a FA, the 2 guards aging and one an FA and your LT a 33 year old?...Not to mention your best DL is a FA. Your best NT is a FA,....Your best backup OL tackle is FA...Explain where all this mysterious money comes from.

Well, we have 66M in cap space next year. I'd say that pretty serious. Cut KJ, that's another 10M.

Plenty of cap and draft capital to address the O-line and defensive holes. Not sure why you're making this a D-line ONLY issue. We need playmakers and depth all over the defense.

I'm not making it anything more than what the defense has done. Which isn't much. They can't pass rush, they can't stop the run, so it all starts up front. Can't blame the LB's and secondary if people come running full speed at them. You have no miraculous fixes except to spend dollars that aren't going to be available to sign all the players.....So c'mon JS jr. let's hear your grand plan since you want to diminish everything I pointed out as factual.

66M in cap space and eight draft picks in the first 5 rounds should be more than enough "miraculous fixes" to get some playmakers and depth on the defense.........and address O-line needs.

Maybe not all in 2020, but definitely a good place to be both cap and draft pick wise. Especially after the past two years of dead cap we've had to get off the books, as well as only having five picks last year due to trades.

So miracle? No, but I do expect John to have as much ammunition as he's ever had to REALLY get the defense right.

 

[chris98251]

What is the going rate now, average Guards about 7 million a year, Tackles on the right close to 10 mil, on the left 14 to 16 mil. DE's 17 to 24 million, DT you can get for 3 or so upward to 7 if they have a name.

That's F.A. doesn't include signing starter quality Nickel, SS or two LB's. Our draft class and back ups needed in many positions.

Yes that's average and starters, I am talking what people have been complaining about on O line run and pass blockers, and DE's pass rushers that are healthy, and NT types that will push the pocket.

I have ate up our cap and more just here to replace everyone that people are complaining about.

This is for average guys and not guys trying to hang on a couple years more or injured players hoping to get right for a year and cash in again.

Also yes they are guess's but looking at what a lot went for last year and adding a million or so.

 

[truehawksfan]

Rushers.
On paper, we had two edge guys -Clowney & Ansah- and inside rusher -Reed and his 10 sacks. Ansah was never right this year and really disappointed w/Reed. I suspect, JS will sign another rusher in FA and draft a couple. Someone mentioned JS likes to load up on a position in the draft and this is great area to go after.

Run stoppers
JS has found quality vets at DT who know their role. I suspect JS will sign a couple of vets and keep one.

Not to high jack this tread, but...
Oline
Solari is a very good coach. Who ever thought Iupati would last for the entire season? Or make Ifedi an ok T. Yes, he still gets called on penalties, but it’s dropped significantly since Solari arrived. I expect JS to address the Oline like he has since Solari arrived. Get a vet he likes and draft one or two players. Who thought Jordan Simmons or Demarco Jones would played well? Solari will patch together a good line.

TE
Dissly is a very good player, but unreliable. I hope JS will sign a FA and draft another.

Someone mentioned cap relief by cutting KJ. Well, the same can be said if we cut Britt and Ed Dickson. Can really use their cap dollars on replacements.