This year's defense historically bad

ivotuk

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This defense suffers from a plethora of injuries, suspensions, and a lack of talent in some areas.

I think this 3 linebacker experiment was a failure and should be shitcanned.

IMHO, we need another DE, a good NT, and improved talent at back up DB/S.
 

Spin Doctor

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SanDiego49er":kwrqp4g3 said:
So what is different this year? Usually your defense is outstanding. I guess Pete Carroll was saying they need pass rush. I thought Clowney was your pass rush? He is too injured or the other guys are not performing?
Pete Carroll's defense has been declining every year since 2014. Don't believe me? Just go look at the numbers. When I looked it up the main thing that stood out to me is the defensive line. The Seahawks D-Line fell off before the core players completely left. It has continuously been getting worse, and quicker than the rest of the units too. Lack of pass rush has been a trend since 2017, even with Clark. You can see it reflected in the drafts as well. Since 2016 at least one of our first two picks has been a D-Lineman. We've struggled to put together a cohesive unit. Even with talent it seems this line has underperformed.
 

olyfan63

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Fire Norton?
Or how hamstrung is Norton with the talent available?
How badly is Norton struggling on scheme and game-planning stuff? It looks bad, but I don't know how much is under Norton Jr.'s control. Or if Norton has upside to adjust and grow to get better at the schemes and game-planning.
 

olyfan63

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hawksfansinceday1":2322e3ki said:
I posted this in the Gameday forum last Sunday but to me it bears repeating...this defense is desperately in need of an infusion of SPEED. While Diggs is fast, he looks amazingly so cuz the rest of the D is freaking sloooooooow.

We used to have LBs who were faster than many/most RBs and even many WRs. Darren Smith, Bruce Irvin, Bobby Wagner; all with RB speed, and Irvin with WR speed. KJ back then was average speed for a LB, but made up for it with smarts. Now, we look slow by comparison.
 

themunn

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Northwest Seahawk":2rz5lkva said:
John63":2rz5lkva said:
Northwest Seahawk":2rz5lkva said:
LB is a clear need Wags and KJ are past it . I would not be opposed to drafting a LB with out first pick.


Ahh wags led LBs in tackles, and KJ led LBs in ints

That's good to hear but there not getting any younger bro. They don't play as physical game in game out as they used to and they have both lost a step. LB has to be seriously addressed it's just common sense. Barton and BBK are not the answer . Second worst defense in franchise history let that sink in.

It's a team game, Wagner and KJ were just fine, but the defensive line has been putrid and our secondary play without Diggs pathetic.
Wagner is still only 29 and has at least 4-5 years of high level play left in him. Getting rid of him now would be as stupid as getting rid of Sherman or Thomas, both who have proved they are far from beyond their best, and (coincidentally?) playing for the top seeds in each of their conferences.
 

Largent80

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Seahawks are 4th WORST in tackling and that is a huge reason for these numbers. They also bite on screens very badly, also jet sweeps. If you are an OC, it's pretty easy to draw up a plan to beat this team, especially early on in games.

28 sacks, 2nd fewest in the league. They had only 126 pressures, sixth fewest in the league behind Detroit (125), Oakland (117), Houston (117), Atlanta (115) and Miami (96). Seattle’s pressure percentage was the fourth worst in the league (19.3%) behind Detroit (18.9%), Houston (18.1%) and Miami (16.7%).

Seattle hit the quarterback 68 times — fourth fewest. They had 52 TFL’s — again, fourth fewest.

They gave up 55 explosive running plays on defense, seventh most in the NFL. Yet their explosive run play percentage (14%) was the third worst overall behind only Carolina (16%) and Cleveland (15%).

In Quandre Diggs’ five games with the Seahawks this year, Seattle’s defense has produced 16 take-aways, including three INTs by Diggs, and a 4-1 record. Without him in the last two games, 0 take-aways and an 0-2 record.
 
OP
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H

hawksfansinceday1

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Largent80":fv1kzbbz said:
Seahawks are 4th WORST in tackling and that is a huge reason for these numbers. They also bite on screens very badly, also jet sweeps. If you are an OC, it's pretty easy to draw up a plan to beat this team, especially early on in games.

28 sacks, 2nd fewest in the league. They had only 126 pressures, sixth fewest in the league behind Detroit (125), Oakland (117), Houston (117), Atlanta (115) and Miami (96). Seattle’s pressure percentage was the fourth worst in the league (19.3%) behind Detroit (18.9%), Houston (18.1%) and Miami (16.7%).

Seattle hit the quarterback 68 times — fourth fewest. They had 52 TFL’s — again, fourth fewest.

They gave up 55 explosive running plays on defense, seventh most in the NFL. Yet their explosive run play percentage (14%) was the third worst overall behind only Carolina (16%) and Cleveland (15%).

In Quandre Diggs’ five games with the Seahawks this year, Seattle’s defense has produced 16 take-aways, including three INTs by Diggs, and a 4-1 record. Without him in the last two games, 0 take-aways and an 0-2 record.
Good stuff. Further support/reasons behind the numbers I posted.
 

jlwaters1

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Northwest Seahawk":kjuqy4ap said:
Uncle Si":kjuqy4ap said:
Northwest Seahawk":kjuqy4ap said:
LB is a clear need Wags and KJ are past it . I would not be opposed to drafting a LB with out first pick.

Do you think Barton is a long time solution?

I think Calitro was a better player and he was a backup .


Get out of here. That's crazy talk. Calitro was JAG.
 

Sgt. Largent

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Whatever cap space and draft equity we have next year should be plowed into all three levels of the defense.

Russell and some well timed luck with playing 3-4 backup QB's to get wins has masked a very glaring issue in 2019, our defense is not even mediocre, it's bad.

So if Pete's going to want to play Pete Ball, and Pete WILL continue to want to play Pete Ball..............then he better fix the defense going forward.
 

Largent80

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The Line is the only place on defense in need of players.

The line on offense will need to be addressed at EVERY position because of F.A, age, and depth.
 

Sgt. Largent

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Largent80":2swzn4ce said:
The Line is the only place on defense in need of players.

The line on offense will need to be addressed at EVERY position because of F.A, age, and depth.

O-line definitely needs to be addressed, but other than Wagner and maybe Griffin and Diggs the defense needs playmakers at all three levels.

Wright is gone, so might be Kendricks if his injury is as severe as Pete said it was............and still need corners and a thumper at SS. McDougald is fine, but he's not the long term solution at SS, and Blair hasn't proven he is either.

Amadi at nickel? Still haven't seen him flash enough to trust him there long term, same with Flowers.

So yeah, if you'd like us to be mediocre to bad again on defense, just bring back all the guys from this year.
 

onepicknick1

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Do you think it's a lack of player talent or a lack of coaching? I said last year this D was young it would improve this year but it most definitely went backwards. If it's a lack of talent then why do they have the player's they have where is the good drafting they were known for?
 

Sgt. Largent

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onepicknick1":3clxayxn said:
Do you think it's a lack of player talent or a lack of coaching? I said last year this D was young it would improve this year but it most definitely went backwards. If it's a lack of talent then why do they have the player's they have where is the good drafting they were known for?

I think the four game stretch where Clowney and Diggs were healthy showed that the defensive schemes work when we have the talent and playmakers on the field and rolling. What, five turnovers in four games?

But when we've got the likes of Barton, King, Collier, Green and Hill on the field forcing the defense into base getting gashed at every level?

Err, not so good.
 

chris98251

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Need a line on defense that can push the pocket inside and clog run lanes, I think the edge will be better next year, Ziggy not healthy all year really may be a lot better not trying to recover during the season from all sorts of injuries, the shoulder was tough but he may have had the other injuries which I will call compensating injuries trying to protect the shoulder. Collier should be much more involved after his red shirt year also, throw in Green and I think the makings are there. Reed, Ford, and Woods, were ok but didn't appear to be able to push the pocket on passing downs, Woods was good against the run inside but we need more here.

Saying that the next problem is those guys have to do better about tie guys up, the O linemen were getting to our linebackers frequently, you want to make LB's look bad have them take on O lineman all the time.

We also need a Nickel guys badly, Teams can scheme easily and to put guys where they want them against linebackers in coverage, to counter we played a even deeper and softer zone.

I agree with the lack of a thumper at SS, we need that presence, guys are running free across the middle and have no fear, leg tackles or missed tackles were a common practice. I will take a flag, I know we will get them even on clean hits because they look violent, but the repercussions are worth it, short armed receivers looking for that player that can take their soul and all the missed completions because of it.

Blair and Amadi are not that physical presence, not because of effort or will but size. Same as McDougald.

Fixing these will help our CB's a lot, we do need a better CB position coach though, the drop off in interceptions is huge from the LOB days, Richard taught them not only the kick step and technique but how to read and look for the ball off a receiver, Maybe it's just me but as a player at that position that's something you learned pretty early, back peddle look at QB to see where he is focused, I say look but it's really a peek, when the receiver gets up on your if your not jamming turn and get position on him or read his core and follow his cut while looking at his head and hand position. This is really done almost instinctively and takes hardly any time once you do it routinely, if you see him start raising his hands or extending or turning his head you peek again and see if the ball is coming and decide to make a play on it or defend and knock it down or strip it.

What I see a lot is they let the Receiver get up on them and are chasing rather then dictating where the receiver can go, rarely using the sideline as a extra defender. Once they are past you have to bust ass and they have length on you for the over the top pass.

Our over the top FS coverage has been abysmal with T2 and Hill; in there also, not knowing if our CB's are trusting them to be there and allowing some of this stuff is hard to tell, but either way it's something we have been burnt on quite a bit.
 

mistaowen

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Sgt. Largent":13q75wua said:
onepicknick1":13q75wua said:
Do you think it's a lack of player talent or a lack of coaching? I said last year this D was young it would improve this year but it most definitely went backwards. If it's a lack of talent then why do they have the player's they have where is the good drafting they were known for?

I think the four game stretch where Clowney and Diggs were healthy showed that the defensive schemes work when we have the talent and playmakers on the field and rolling. What, five turnovers in four games?

But when we've got the likes of Barton, King, Collier, Green and Hill on the field forcing the defense into base getting gashed at every level?

Err, not so good.

Exactly, Pete's style of 'we line up, no secrets, you have to beat us' works great if you have superior athletes. Pete used to have a secondary that actually could hold up for 5+ seconds if pass rush couldn't get home with the LOB. This year had an average to above average secondary without a nickel CB he trusted that needs a solid pass rush. Which is fine, most defenses are the same as lock down CB's are insanely hard to get. This meant an aging group of normally terrific LB's were stuck on islands against speedy slot WR's across the middle.

IMO it is a nice mixture of lacking superior athletes to run the scheme along with poor coaching thinking they could plug and play. The only change I saw for most of the year was 2 deep safeties which had Bobby 15 yards downfield and allowed offenses to get 10+ yards uncontested. They didn't have the guys to run Pete's vision and never accepted it. I'm sure Pete was expecting some big leaps forward this year from guys who are year 2-3 in his system and for the most part that didn't happen.

I think Ken Norton needs to be upgraded. Good LB coach, 0/2 as DC, didn't see any fire out of him on the sidelines, mostly had the Eli confused look. Not sure who the guy would be but he needs some familiarity with Pete's scheme and I'd prefer he be DL minded. Defense needs a complete infusion of talent as well, especially improving overall speed. Depth is really bad and the guys who filled in showed almost no promise. These new young play callers utilizing motion and speed to the edges really gashed us this year.

They have pieces in place to get this group back to the top 10 but they need to hit this offseason out of the park. Lots of draft picks and cap space available to do it and I think Pete knows the play he got from the DL is inexcusable. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much in the draft to immediately improve the DL so they will likely need to trade or get FA's.
 

Jerhawk

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Here's my armchair coach's take on how to solve the issue:

More Nickel packages. Get Amadi and Blair on the field
 

lukerguy

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Yeah, this is really something. So Pete's primary value is locker/team culture. This is no small value. Some coaches offer winning culture with no philosophy/schematic value (like Pete, Dungy). Some offer schematic value, but can't teach a winning culture (Marrone, Arians). Some coaches have neither (Gase, Kitchens).

Coaches are on a wide range of the spectrum too. And, having a very strong coordinator can help too, if you lack in category.. unfortunately Norton is useless schematically (raw raw- which Pete already is). The last time the Seahawks defense was great, they have a schematically brilliant coordinator in Quinn with DLINE coaching excellence (hence why the Hawks were able to get pressure so often when he was here).

Seattle
Pete with defensive back ground
Culture- 10/10
Scheme/game planning- 3/10
D-coordinator (Norton)- 1/10
O-coordinator (Schotty)- 7/10

SF
Shanny with O back ground
Culture mostly TBD since they have had no adversity since having success, but I'll go 5/10
Scheme/game planning- 9/10
D-Coordinator- 7/10 (I'd say their personnel on DLINE is their biggest strength)
O-Coordinator (Shanny calls plays)

SF philosphy was to make their DLINE their strength... Seattle needs to get a new Dcoordinator with specialization in DLINE and spend that 60MM cap space on the DLINE.
 

Sgt. Largent

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lukerguy":30l99dor said:
Yeah, this is really something. So Pete's primary value is locker/team culture. This is no small value. Some coaches offer winning culture with no philosophy/schematic value (like Pete, Dungy). Some offer schematic value, but can't teach a winning culture (Marrone, Arians). Some coaches have neither (Gase, Kitchens).

Coaches are on a wide range of the spectrum too. And, having a very strong coordinator can help too, if you lack in category.. unfortunately Norton is useless schematically (raw raw- which Pete already is). The last time the Seahawks defense was great, they have a schematically brilliant coordinator in Quinn with DLINE coaching excellence (hence why the Hawks were able to get pressure so often when he was here).

Seattle
Pete with defensive back ground
Culture- 10/10
Scheme/game planning- 3/10
D-coordinator (Norton)- 1/10
O-coordinator (Schotty)- 7/10

SF
Shanny with O back ground
Culture mostly TBD since they have had no adversity since having success, but I'll go 5/10
Scheme/game planning- 9/10
D-Coordinator- 7/10 (I'd say their personnel on DLINE is their biggest strength)
O-Coordinator (Shanny calls plays)

SF philosphy was to make their DLINE their strength... Seattle needs to get a new Dcoordinator with specialization in DLINE and spend that 60MM cap space on the DLINE.

Thanks for the well thought out analysis, but you left out the most important factor if you're comparing SF to Seattle, SF just came off a 4-5 year run with a bazillion 1st and 2nd round picks.

It's pretty easy to rebuild your roster when you have a five year span of picking at the top of the draft, some years with multiple 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders due to trades.
 

Seymour

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Sgt. Largent":32vgqeey said:
Thanks for the well thought out analysis, but you left out the most important factor if you're comparing SF to Seattle, SF just came off a 4-5 year run with a bazillion 1st and 2nd round picks.

It's pretty easy to rebuild your roster when you have a five year span of picking at the top of the draft, some years with multiple 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders due to trades.

Given our 1st - high 2nd round history those draft picks would be no advantage here with Pete and John making the selection. :|
 

Sgt. Largent

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Seymour":2br9k2gj said:
Sgt. Largent":2br9k2gj said:
Thanks for the well thought out analysis, but you left out the most important factor if you're comparing SF to Seattle, SF just came off a 4-5 year run with a bazillion 1st and 2nd round picks.

It's pretty easy to rebuild your roster when you have a five year span of picking at the top of the draft, some years with multiple 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders due to trades.

Given our 1st - high 2nd round history those draft picks would be no advantage here with Pete and John making the selection. :|

When we had top 15 picks, we picked guys like Earl, Okung and Irvin.

So while I agree with you that John and Pete are terrible at bottom of the first or top of the 2nd picks, SF had a 4-5 year run of top 10 picks, of which resulted in the core of their defense and O-line.
 

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