A Deconstruction and Chronicle of Pete's Defense

Polk738

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A lot of people here want to call Taylor a bust and want to move on from him, but he has more tackles, tackles for loss, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries than Clark in the past two years. Most telling, Taylor has more sacks in the past three years and he only played two of those years.

Now THAT I didn't know, very interesting, something else I didn't know was that the Chiefs restructured his contract to keep him around a bit longer on the cheap, I guess they see something in him lol.
 

MizzouHawkGal

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I think they are going for big disruption on the line and s lock down secondary and hoping we can keep people to 100-125 rushing a game. I hate it but it's the exact formula to dominate if you have a quarterback that's awesome and excellent offensive weapons. It's what the Chiefs do.
 
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LastRideOut

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It seems to me that they're building the back end of the defense. I bet next draft/free agency, they will build up the line.

PC does like to limit the big plays, hence the emphasis on the back end.
 

chrispy

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Gotta start somewhere... Building DBs first limits big plays at the expense of run D. Hopefully BWagz brings the run D back up to average. DLine won't be fantastic on day 1, but hopefully improves each week. Lots of things could go wrong in 23, but...there's a chance things could go really right too.
 

morgulon1

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I think the defensive performances will be slightly uneven. This will be the subject of
many threads , wailing and gnashing of teeth. At the end of the regular season, this
Will be a better team on the edge of being really good.
 

scutterhawk

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Ok, well, to kind of fix your mood, Fade just hates everything Pete Carroll does in any way, shape, or form and this thread is a way to try and move the conversation from why the predictions about how losing Russ would kill us have proven so disastrously wrong.

The first thing I'd point out is that our defense last year under Norton was not historically bad. (Neither was the previous year, for that matter). We had a period where we were on track to be 'historically' bad on defense in only one particular metric (yards) and then... we weren't. It was early season hyperbole that didn't pan out.

Our defense last year, that Fade HATED was actually, shockingly... decent. They were the type of defense that many a team (including us) has taken to a Super Bowl before. They were basically equivalent to the defense of the Rams last year with superstar Aaron 'Why don't I ever get suspended for the things I do?' Donald.

We were in the top 10 or better in numerous categories, including Opposing Scoring %, Points given up per drive, and Red Zone defense.

The problem with our defense last year was our offense. If our offense had been just like, the 27th worst team in the league at sustaining drives instead of dead freakin' last (by some margin), our defense would have instantly shot up to the top 3 or 5 in terms of scoring defense. Like, we were 1 or 2 first downs a game away from being considered one of the better defenses in the league.

That's not to say that we aren't horrendously bad this year (to this point)... we are. BUT you have to look critically at this big assessment of our defense because this type of stuff is the same kinds of things that were said about our perfectly fine defense last year.
Fade >>>ACTUALLY BELIEVES <<< that he's smarter than Pete Carroll BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!
Maybe he needs to provide a team that HE PERSONALLY has groomed to perfection to outshine what Pete & John has provided for the Seattle Seahawks, Yeah, I didn't think so either.
 

scutterhawk

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And who was the architect for those picks? JS is or was the GM by title only. Everyone knows PC has or at least had final say in all personnel decisions, and basically anything Seahawks. This is his team.

It's debatable if PC was stripped of some of those powers in this past offseason with JS being given more say in personnel matters, particularly in the draft. I suspect that's true.

Outstanding thoughtful and well-researched post by the OP, and I completely agree with pretty much everything he wrote.

PC above all else is supposed to be a defensive guru. And yet statistically we've had some of the worse defenses in the league the past few years. We still can't get off the field on 3rd downs, a problem that has existed for years. Before the Lions game, we were the ONLY team in the league without a 3-and-out on defense. That's not just bad, that's abysmal.

We desperately need a change at the top. But as another poster mentioned, with the team currently or soon to be up for sale, unfortunately a change seems unlikely at this juncture.
Pete Carroll has final say on the players that the Seahawks bring on board, it's been that way since his arrival, and that's as it should be...He's the Engineer who got us our FIRST AND ONLY Lombardi by doin' shit HIS WAY.
Sniveling out a long winded 'Hate Pete' post WITHOUT the EXPERTISE to add credibility = Whining.
 

scutterhawk

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Lets hear it hawkstrong....if Fade is so wrong whats your counter? You arguing we have drafted well or that Pete has done a fantastic job building this defense?
The "Counter" is that Pete Carroll's way of doing shit, got us OUR FIRST AN ONLY LOMBARDI, while Fade's Sniveling has gotten US SQUAT.
 

scutterhawk

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Are they improving every day? I can see improvement in individual players such as Woolen and Boye Mafe but the unit as a whole isn't improving. We gave up 45 points this sunday and the team we played didn't even have their three largest threats on offense and they were literally trotting out practice squad receivers against us. They also were missing their starting center and guard.

Despite the Lions missing all of those players they amassed their highest point total of the year against the defense. We gave up over 1000 yards combined, the Lions and the Seahawks.
They've drafted twice as many defensive players, over offensive players the previous 5 seasons with their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks and virtually hit on none of them.

Why defend this?
Boye Mafe was a MISS??? How the hell do you figure?!?
 

Ozzy

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The "Counter" is that Pete Carroll's way of doing shit, got us OUR FIRST AN ONLY LOMBARDI, while Fade's Sniveling has gotten US SQUAT.
Damn that was an old post. Our defense has been really bad for years now with similar issues like stopping the run every single year. I think it's fair to be critical of Pete for that. Hopefully this year it's different and while I think it finally might be it's reasonable to be skeptical until we see it.
 

BASF

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Damn that was an old post. Our defense has been really bad for years now with similar issues like stopping the run every single year. I think it's fair to be critical of Pete for that. Hopefully this year it's different and while I think it finally might be it's reasonable to be skeptical until we see it.
What stat are we going by to determine stopping the run? Last season we were very poor in the stat that truly determines: Yards per attempt. However, we were number two in 2021. We were number 5 in 2020. We were bottom half in the league in rushing touchdowns allowed in those seasons, but stats like that are determined in how many more attempts at those touchdowns did we yield compared to other teams. In 2019, we were bottom third of the league in all categories except for attempts where we faced the seventh least attempts, so teams were very successful against us with less attempts than most. However the turnover from 2019 to 2022 was pretty much the entire defense.
 

Ozzy

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What stat are we going by to determine stopping the run? Last season we were very poor in the stat that truly determines: Yards per attempt. However, we were number two in 2021. We were number 5 in 2020. We were bottom half in the league in rushing touchdowns allowed in those seasons, but stats like that are determined in how many more attempts at those touchdowns did we yield compared to other teams. In 2019, we were bottom third of the league in all categories except for attempts where we faced the seventh least attempts, so teams were very successful against us with less attempts than most. However the turnover from 2019 to 2022 was pretty much the entire defense.
Fair point. We've had some flashes but overall we haven't had a good defense in years. Pete is considered the greatest defensive coach ever or in the conversation so when for years after the LOB we can't seem to get it right I think it's reasonable for people to be a little skeptical if that makes sense. We seemed to get beat the same way over and over and didn't do a ton to adapt. We seem to be changing that a little bit recently.

Anyway the point is it's not unreasonable for people to have questions about it based on what we've seen the past few years of the defense overall.
 

BASF

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Fair point. We've had some flashes but overall we haven't had a good defense in years. Pete is considered the greatest defensive coach ever or in the conversation
You continue saying this after I have pointed out several times that Belichick is him and there is no one that considers Carroll in the conversation. Please post a link that states this. I decided to take a look at the first page of searches on google asking who the best defensive coach in history is and of the six pages I clicked (one link is a complete no no as far as my anti-virus program is concerned) and Pete Carroll appeared in none of them.

so when for years after the LOB we can't seem to get it right I think it's reasonable for people to be a little skeptical if that makes sense.

We should absolutely be skeptical. He continues to hire people as defensive coordinator that are less than hires. Norton was a horrible decision especially given his track record.
We seemed to get beat the same way over and over and didn't do a ton to adapt.

Preaching to the choir on this one. Carroll did not change for at least two seasons after teams had figured out the Cover 3 and how we pass off the receivers through our zones.
We seem to be changing that a little bit recently.

We renovated pretty much the entire system in the past two seasons. My problem with that is Hurtt was not ready to teach his Fangio adapted system to the players and we suffered through a horrible season because of it. The main problem is that the Fangio system has also been figured out by the league, so we went from one system that had passed it's effective date for another one.
Anyway the point is it's not unreasonable for people to have questions about it based on what we've seen the past few years of the defense overall.
Agreed.
 

Hawkmode

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Amazing blame and angst from a fan base. Finding fan based excuses why our defense has struggled seems like an exercise in futility. The NFL has forced defenses to be in a state of flux by messing with/adjusting rules to "stack" elements of ruining dynasties while propping up offensive minded geniuses to rule the playing field. Many stud defenses of the recent past have faltered while scrambling to overcome the impact of new focus on "defenseless" receiver...helmet leading tackles...the ridiculous definition of what constitutes a catch (which is why you see more desperate attempts to punch a ball loose to create a fumble...instead of popping/leveling a WR as the ball arrives).

Our new blended 4-3 under utilizing 3-4 type personnel is actually taking shape as a response to the modern (NFL rule meddling) offenses running rampant currently...last year communication (lack of) issues created more stress than our defensive schemes could manage. Getting Bobby back is key in addressing the issues plaguing Clint's efforts to bring his ideas to life. Our offense is geared to exploding under Shane's tutelage which should force many offenses to play catch up without the aid of time consuming rushing. Tight pass coverage with stronger pass rush penetration will complement/feed off each other. Trust and faith are never wasted qualities of a fan base.
 

MizzouHawkGal

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Amazing blame and angst from a fan base. Finding fan based excuses why our defense has struggled seems like an exercise in futility. The NFL has forced defenses to be in a state of flux by messing with/adjusting rules to "stack" elements of ruining dynasties while propping up offensive minded geniuses to rule the playing field. Many stud defenses of the recent past have faltered while scrambling to overcome the impact of new focus on "defenseless" receiver...helmet leading tackles...the ridiculous definition of what constitutes a catch (which is why you see more desperate attempts to punch a ball loose to create a fumble...instead of popping/leveling a WR as the ball arrives).

Our new blended 4-3 under utilizing 3-4 type personnel is actually taking shape as a response to the modern (NFL rule meddling) offenses running rampant currently...last year communication (lack of) issues created more stress than our defensive schemes could manage. Getting Bobby back is key in addressing the issues plaguing Clint's efforts to bring his ideas to life.

Our offense is geared to exploding under Shane's tutelage which should force many offenses to play catch up without the aid of time consuming rushing. Tight pass coverage with stronger pass rush penetration will complement/feed off each other. Trust and faith are never wasted qualities of a fan base.
I like your thoughts but it's extremely risky is that Pete?
 

Hawkmode

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I like your thoughts but it's extremely risky is that Pete?
Pete is more traditional than risky...but he's a man who knows he has more energy than most his age...so age acknowledgement can open one's views to include a little more risk for desired achievements.
 
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