Pete, culture, and quarterbacks

[Ozzy]

I agree with you 100% but quite sure Russ totally disagree with us. Oh Russ and John63 disagree.

The best part is we will all get to confirm priors or look stupid depending on how he does this year. I think he's going to be the same monster he was here and be a top 5 QB. But maybe he falls a ton and everyone who wanted him gone can gloat. It's going to be fun seeing how this plays out. I'm hoping everyone comes out of it a winner. The Seahawks surprise us(me) and Russ continues his success.

 

[toffee]

The best part is we will all get to confirm priors or look stupid depending on how he does this year. I think he's going to be the same monster he was here and be a top 5 QB. But maybe he falls a ton and everyone who wanted him gone can gloat. It's going to be fun seeing how this plays out. I'm hoping everyone comes out of it a winner. The Seahawks surprise us(me) and Russ continues his success.

Wilson is very gifted, and he will do well in Bronco, well enough to earn that big contract. He got two more years on his current contract? What he is not, or hasn't shown that he could, is be the leader that the team will rally around, he was the guy the locker room would pay lip service to.

Now, they are in honeymoon period, and the teammates have not enter the lip service era. If they don't win super bowl in the next 2 seasons, they won't under Wilson.

 

[Ad Hawk]

The best part is we will all get to confirm priors or look stupid depending on how he does this year. I think he's going to be the same monster he was here and be a top 5 QB. But maybe he falls a ton and everyone who wanted him gone can gloat. It's going to be fun seeing how this plays out. I'm hoping everyone comes out of it a winner. The Seahawks surprise us(me) and Russ continues his success.

I doubt it will be a slam dunk argument for either the PC supporters or the RW side (which it seems to boil down to, often). My guess is that Russ still makes some great throws, hits the highlight reels at times, and still takes too many sacks. If I had to guess, he may have higher total yards and attempts, but the Broncos may end up with a 9-8 or 10-7 record. Is that good enough for the money they're paying him?

That's where the FO decided to move on. Pete gets to continue his culture here and see what kind of magic he can work with a middle-of-the-road (at best, right now) QB.

Because of what happens behind closed doors and the multitude of variables in pro football, I doubt we'll ever know who had more influence on the good and the bad results between PC and RW. I know that together, they won a lot of games. But more than that, developed some great teams.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

I think Carroll is honestly one of the few coaches that actually cares about the human being a player is as much as they are talented football players, perhaps, even more so.

Say what you want and I have myself about Carroll’s football credentials and/or coaching schemes and XOs, but it has been said by players that they truly feel Carroll connects with them as human beings first, which is why most are hurt when their time in Seattle is concluded.

I believe Sherman, reiterated this. Hell, look at KJ Wright, this guy loved everything Seattle, hard to say Carroll did not have a huge impact on him.

I personally believe that Carroll wants to bring out the best in people first, because football is secondary and if he can help a person be a better version of themselves, the chances they succeed on the field is raised.

Some people are coached up when they are yelled at, some are coached when they have a listener. I believe Carroll is a listener first.

Carroll’s make it positive instead of negative can easily change the thoughts of a player and that could bring out the best traits in them.

Imagine going through life being negative all the time. And then imagine going through life with more optimism. What would have higher chance of finding success?

I believe a lot of players see this in Carroll.

I don’t know the man personally but he seems like a decent guy that players would rather be around and play for as compared to like a Jim Harbaugh, Mike McCarthy, Mike Zimmer, etc.

 

[Ozzy]

I doubt it will be a slam dunk argument for either the PC supporters or the RW side (which it seems to boil down to, often). My guess is that Russ still makes some great throws, hits the highlight reels at times, and still takes too many sacks. If I had to guess, he may have higher total yards and attempts, but the Broncos may end up with a 9-8 or 10-7 record. Is that good enough for the money they're paying him?

That's where the FO decided to move on. Pete gets to continue his culture here and see what kind of magic he can work with a middle-of-the-road (at best, right now) QB.

Because of what happens behind closed doors and the multitude of variables in pro football, I doubt we'll ever know who had more influence on the good and the bad results between PC and RW. I know that together, they won a lot of games. But more than that, developed some great teams.

The only people who don't think Russ is an elite top 5 guy when healthy are Seahawk fans who are over thinking it and I think watching the position post Wilson for a few years will make people realize how lucky we were. If Russ continues to be that guy then I think Pete is going to take a lot of heat from people around the league for botching that situation. But having said that I'm starting to be a little more open to why they did it. I just think overall fans are a little hypercritical of his shortcomings and watching how almost every other QB plays week in and week out will make people realize we were a little ridiculous at times and hypercritical.

Your last point is spot on. We're all throwing darts and can't know the full story and we all have reasonable reasons for holding the takes we do. I tend to lean slightly Russ side but I can get people on the other side and like you said. Together it was a pretty magical 10 year ride. Multiple SB's, 10 wins every year a first ballot hall of famer at the hardest position in football and a guy that Pete was willing to take a risk on so he deserves credit too. It's going to be a long time before a duo like that exists again here.

 

[Ozzy]

I think Carroll is honestly one of the few coaches that actually cares about the human being a player is as much as they are talented football players, perhaps, even more so.

So what you want and I have myself about Carroll’s football credentials and/or coaching schemes and XOs, but it has been said by players that they truly feel Carroll connects with them as human beings first, which is why most are hurt when their time in Seattle is concluded.

I believe Sherman, reiterated this. Hell, look at KJ Wright, this guy loved everything Seattle, hard to say Carroll did not have a huge impact on him.

I personally believe that Carroll wants to bring out the best in people first, because football is secondary and if he can help a person be a better version of themselves, the chances they succeed on the field is raised.

Some people are coached up when they are yelled at, some are coached when they have a listener. I believe Carroll is a listener first.

Carroll’s make it positive instead of negative can easily change the thoughts of a player and that could bring out the best traits in them.

Imagine going through life being negative all the time. And then imagine going through life with more optimism. What would have higher chance of finding success?

I believe a lot of players see this in Carroll.

I don’t know the man personally but he seems like a decent guy that players would rather be around and play for as compared to like a Jim Harbaugh, Mike McCarthy, Mike Zimmer, etc.

Completely true. Even the guys who were critical of his offensive approach all talk about how much they love Carroll, their time here and how much fun it was playing for him.

 

[toffee]

I think Carroll is honestly one of the few coaches that actually cares about the human being a player is as much as they are talented football players, perhaps, even more so.

Say what you want and I have myself about Carroll’s football credentials and/or coaching schemes and XOs, but it has been said by players that they truly feel Carroll connects with them as human beings first, which is why most are hurt when their time in Seattle is concluded.

I believe Sherman, reiterated this. Hell, look at KJ Wright, this guy loved everything Seattle, hard to say Carroll did not have a huge impact on him.

I personally believe that Carroll wants to bring out the best in people first, because football is secondary and if he can help a person be a better version of themselves, the chances they succeed on the field is raised.

Some people are coached up when they are yelled at, some are coached when they have a listener. I believe Carroll is a listener first.

Carroll’s make it positive instead of negative can easily change the thoughts of a player and that could bring out the best traits in them.

Imagine going through life being negative all the time. And then imagine going through life with more optimism. What would have higher chance of finding success?

I believe a lot of players see this in Carroll.

I don’t know the man personally but he seems like a decent guy that players would rather be around and play for as compared to like a Jim Harbaugh, Mike McCarthy, Mike Zimmer, etc.

I think Pete is a bit more than just a good people manager, I would like to think that his offense philosophy of balanced attack and making QB's tasks simpler are sound, share by Shanahan.

Why was Pete's offense philosophy widely criticized then? If you have a franchise class QB, Russ or otherwise, he will likely be unhappy under a balanced Pete style offense for a few reasons. That QB will be called a system QB, a game manager. Once you were label as that, no chance of in MVP race. Harder to get top $$$ and HOF without MVP and be labelled as a system QB/game manager.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Why was Pete's offense philosophy widely criticized then?

Because he often continued with schemes even if they werent working hence the adage "trying to pound a square peg into a round hole" and it often took the QB going off script with heroics to win a lot of games for him. Also, with a QB like Wilson, let him go and do his thing. Dont panic and reel him in because he threw a pick or two in some short time span. Let him work through it before neutering the entire offense. I've heard many people over the years say that Carroll is playing checkers while the other coaches are playing chess and that seems abundantly clear. This season will expose that even though Seattle now has the game manager type QB's that many people were clamoring for.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

I think Pete is a bit more than just a good people manager, I would like to think that his offense philosophy of balanced attack and making QB's tasks simpler are sound, share by Shanahan.

Why was Pete's offense philosophy widely criticized then? If you have a franchise class QB, Russ or otherwise, he will likely be unhappy under a balanced Pete style offense for a few reasons. That QB will be called a system QB, a game manager. Once you were label as that, no chance of in MVP race. Harder to get top $$$ and HOF without MVP and be labelled as a system QB/game manager.

I agree.

Pete’s philosophy on offense is predicated on the simple run, limit turnovers.

Best way to do that is to be balanced and not predictable. Carroll, absolutely hates throwing the ball 50 plus times because it definitely increases the odds of throwing a turnover. Carroll would rather have a safer approach as in run the ball for 8 times over to throw the ball 8 times.

Yes, a QB, in a safe, protected scheme such as Carroll’s will likely not win you any MVPs. Great, fantastic point you made!

I definitely agree!

 

[scutterhawk]

Yep, the More the ball is being slung around willy-nilly, the More chances for turnovers.
IF you're not keeping Defenses GUESSING & off balance, then you are what??, That's right, you're making their jobs a whole lot easier.
The old adage about 'The Run Setting up The Pass' & The Pass Setting up The Run' is absolutely true.
Footballs aren't "Square Pegs", nor is the game played like "Checkers or Chess".
Playing SOUND Football, and maintaining CONTROL of the ball SHOULD be a PRIORITY for ALL Quarterbacks, and that applies to all Quarterbacks, whether they be Elite or otherwise.
The HC's job is predicated on making the TEAM AS A WHOLE the best they can be & NOT Soley focusing on making his Quarterback the star of the show.
Just take care of the ball, and be a TEAM PLAYER.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I think Pete is a bit more than just a good people manager, I would like to think that his offense philosophy of balanced attack and making QB's tasks simpler are sound, share by Shanahan.

Why was Pete's offense philosophy widely criticized then? If you have a franchise class QB, Russ or otherwise, he will likely be unhappy under a balanced Pete style offense for a few reasons. That QB will be called a system QB, a game manager. Once you were label as that, no chance of in MVP race. Harder to get top $$$ and HOF without MVP and be labelled as a system QB/game manager.

Pete and Shanahan have completely different philosophies, especially on offense. I don't think they're comparable in the least as coaches. Shanahan's offense is like it is because of the limitations of his QB. He knows Jimmy G's strengths and weaknesses and has adjusted his offense accordingly to fit those limitations. In Atlanta his offense looked very different with a competent QB under center.

Shanahan's offense morphs with each QB that is under center. He specifically designs and caters his offensive philosophy based on his signal callers strengths and weaknesses. His first stint with Washington showed him pulling out collegiate concepts with the read option and spread concepts, specifically catering to RG3's athleticism and lack of refinement as a passer. The offense completely changed to a more traditional WCO style when Kirk Cousins came in.

In ATL his offense looked completely different yet again with Matt Ryan under center. This is where we saw the unraveling of the Cover 3 system that Carroll had crafted that dominated the NFL since 2011. This is the same style of attack that Sean McVay uses as he is a Shanahan disciple. Shanahan originally wrote this playbook and it spread like wildfire throughout the NFL. The Fangio style of defense was the answer to this new attack around the NFL.

Carroll is more of a keep it simple sort of guy. He likes his playbooks and his defenses to be simple. He doesn't believe much in subterfuge or hiding what he's doing. He is a firm believer in the air coryell style of attack. Using the run to set up play action and attacking the sidelines with deep passes once defenses cheat up. His style of offense is all about limiting the toxic differential. Our offensive strategy looked very similar with Hasselbeck and Tarvaris Jackson under center despite having different OCs and QB's with vastly different skillsets. I'm not exactly a fan of Carroll's offensive strategies because it often feels like we're ramming a square peg into a round hole. Shanahan's approach on offense is more fluid and subject to change based on his personal and passer he has under center. Very different approaches to the game and a different management style from these two.

 

[toffee]

Pete and Shanahan have completely different philosophies, especially on offense. I don't think they're comparable in the least as coaches. Shanahan's offense is like it is because of the limitations of his QB. He knows Jimmy G's strengths and weaknesses and has adjusted his offense accordingly to fit those limitations. In Atlanta his offense looked very different with a competent QB under center.

Shanahan's offense morphs with each QB that is under center. He specifically designs and caters his offensive philosophy based on his signal callers strengths and weaknesses. His first stint with Washington showed him pulling out collegiate concepts with the read option and spread concepts, specifically catering to RG3's athleticism and lack of refinement as a passer. The offense completely changed to a more traditional WCO style when Kirk Cousins came in.

In ATL his offense looked completely different yet again with Matt Ryan under center. This is where we saw the unraveling of the Cover 3 system that Carroll had crafted that dominated the NFL since 2011. This is the same style of attack that Sean McVay uses as he is a Shanahan disciple. Shanahan originally wrote this playbook and it spread like wildfire throughout the NFL. The Fangio style of defense was the answer to this new attack around the NFL.

Carroll is more of a keep it simple sort of guy. He likes his playbooks and his defenses to be simple. He doesn't believe much in subterfuge or hiding what he's doing. He is a firm believer in the air coryell style of attack. Using the run to set up play action and attacking the sidelines with deep passes once defenses cheat up. His style of offense is all about limiting the toxic differential. Our offensive strategy looked very similar with Hasselbeck and Tarvaris Jackson under center despite having different OCs and QB's with vastly different skillsets. I'm not exactly a fan of Carroll's offensive strategies because it often feels like we're ramming a square peg into a round hole. Shanahan's approach on offense is more fluid and subject to change based on his personal and passer he has under center. Very different approaches to the game and a different management style from these two.

I agree with you, but my point was Shanahan's offense for Jimmy were quite 'peteballnesque' balanced attack. In 2019 their superbowl year, they even run more than pass , and it worked well enough.

 

[JayhawkMike]

My grandma was the nicest human being in earth. I wouldn’t have wanted her coaching the Seahawks. I don’t care how nice PC is. I care that he is a 7 year post season failure going on 8 with no end in sight.

 

[scutterhawk]

Pete and Shanahan have completely different philosophies, especially on offense. I don't think they're comparable in the least as coaches. Shanahan's offense is like it is because of the limitations of his QB. He knows Jimmy G's strengths and weaknesses and has adjusted his offense accordingly to fit those limitations. In Atlanta his offense looked very different with a competent QB under center.

Shanahan's offense morphs with each QB that is under center. He specifically designs and caters his offensive philosophy based on his signal callers strengths and weaknesses. His first stint with Washington showed him pulling out collegiate concepts with the read option and spread concepts, specifically catering to RG3's athleticism and lack of refinement as a passer. The offense completely changed to a more traditional WCO style when Kirk Cousins came in.

In ATL his offense looked completely different yet again with Matt Ryan under center. This is where we saw the unraveling of the Cover 3 system that Carroll had crafted that dominated the NFL since 2011. This is the same style of attack that Sean McVay uses as he is a Shanahan disciple. Shanahan originally wrote this playbook and it spread like wildfire throughout the NFL. The Fangio style of defense was the answer to this new attack around the NFL.

Carroll is more of a keep it simple sort of guy. He likes his playbooks and his defenses to be simple. He doesn't believe much in subterfuge or hiding what he's doing. He is a firm believer in the air coryell style of attack. Using the run to set up play action and attacking the sidelines with deep passes once defenses cheat up. His style of offense is all about limiting the toxic differential. Our offensive strategy looked very similar with Hasselbeck and Tarvaris Jackson under center despite having different OCs and QB's with vastly different skillsets. I'm not exactly a fan of Carroll's offensive strategies because it often feels like we're ramming a square peg into a round hole. Shanahan's approach on offense is more fluid and subject to change based on his personal and passer he has under center. Very different approaches to the game and a different management style from these two.

And the Wins vs Losses between the two clubs?

 

[pittpnthrs]

And the Wins vs Losses between the two clubs?

If Shanahan had Wilson I bet you wouldnt be asking that question.

 

[toffee]

My grandma was the nicest human being in earth. I wouldn’t have wanted her coaching the Seahawks. I don’t care how nice PC is. I care that he is a 7 year post season failure going on 8 with no end in sight.

revisit 2019, then talk.

 

[Lagartixa]

If you have a franchise class QB, Russ or otherwise, he will likely be unhappy under a balanced Pete style offense for a few reasons. That QB will be called a system QB, a game manager. Once you were label as that, no chance of in MVP race. Harder to get top $$$ and HOF without MVP and be labelled as a system QB/game manager.

I dunno. Through his 20s, Tom Brady was (correctly) seen as a "game manager," and the debate at the time was Peyton Manning's otherworldly on-the-field performance vs. Brady's titles as a game manager. It was only in his age-30 season that Brady suddenly had a Peyton Manning-level season (twice as valuable as Brady's previous best season, and three times as valuable as Brady's performance in his age-29 season) and then he proceeded to maintain that same level for 13 more seasons (there was a one-year break between Brady's breakout age-30 season and his next Manning-level season because Brady was injured in the first game of his age-31 season and missed the rest of that season).

Back when Brady was a QB with good-but-far-from-great numbers and was widely described as a "game manager," he placed third in MVP voting twice - at age 26 in 2003 and at age 28 in 2005.

 

[Spin Doctor]

And the Wins vs Losses between the two clubs?

I'm talking about the Shanahan system here and how he executes his offense. You can't even make an argument about Pete Carroll's offense vs. Shanahan's offensive system. If you say you'd prefer Pete Carroll's offensive system, most NFL fans would laugh you out of the building. Shanahan knows offense and he's been on the cutting edge of NFL offensive innovation for awhile now.

You cannot argue in any good faith that Carroll's offensive system/coordinators is better than Shanahan's. I never made any single claim about Shanahan being a better overall HC.

I simply said that Shanahan's run with Jimmy G isn't exactly a one to one equivalency with what we got going on over here. Shanahan is one of the league's best offensive minds, and many, including of us have looked to emulate what he's put together on offense. He's routinely made mediocre passers work for him since he's been in the NFL. His style of offense has spread over the NFL like wildfire since Matt Ryan's MVP run and McVay, his understudies success on the Rams. He's also the man who introduced the read option and spread concepts to the NFL way back in 2012.

The NFL is much more than just run vs. pass ratio. How you structure the pass and run game is far more important. We can't say in good faith that because Shanahan/McVay made it work with a mediocre QB that we can as well.

The fact that Carroll is scraping his defensive system and is switching to the Vic Fangio style of defense that was constructed to counter the Shanahan style of offense just shows how much respect that Carroll himself has for Shanahan and McVay. He even went out and tried hiring an understudy of that offense to OC our team, though Shane Waldron still seemed to be running the same playbook, by and large.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I dunno. Through his 20s, Tom Brady was (correctly) seen as a "game manager," and the debate at the time was Peyton Manning's otherworldly on-the-field performance vs. Brady's titles as a game manager. It was only in his age-30 season that Brady suddenly had a Peyton Manning-level season (twice as valuable as Brady's previous best season, and three times as valuable as Brady's performance in his age-29 season) and then he proceeded to maintain that same level for 13 more seasons (there was a one-year break between Brady's breakout age-30 season and his next Manning-level season because Brady was injured in the first game of his age-31 season and missed the rest of that season).

Back when Brady was a QB with good-but-far-from-great numbers and was widely described as a "game manager," he placed third in MVP voting twice - at age 26 in 2003 and at age 28 in 2005.

Brady's "game manager" years actually placed him near the top of the NFL in stats multiple times even before 2007. People need to remember that the early 2000s was a different era entirely. The things allowed by the defense was completely different.

Even since the Seattle dominated in 2013-2014 there have been significant rule changes, some specifically aimed at Seattle's style of defense. The NFL is fluid, and should we reach the Super Bowl again, it won't be with the same exact formula. People here seem to have a fixation on the 2013 team and it being the only way to win a Super Bowl. The 2013 Seahawks and the 2015 Broncos that followed were the exceptions to the rules. Even the 2013 Hawk's had some solid QB play from Russell Wilson, who was near the top of the NFL in most efficiency metrics.

 

[Rosco]

Brady's "game manager" years actually placed him near the top of the NFL in stats multiple times even before 2007. People need to remember that the early 2000s was a different era entirely. The things allowed by the defense was completely different.

Even since the Seattle dominated in 2013-2014 there have been significant rule changes, some specifically aimed at Seattle's style of defense. The NFL is fluid, and should we reach the Super Bowl again, it won't be with the same exact formula. People here seem to have a fixation on the 2013 team and it being the only way to win a Super Bowl. The 2013 Seahawks and the 2015 Broncos that followed were the exceptions to the rules. Even the 2013 Hawk's had some solid QB play from Russell Wilson, who was near the top of the NFL in most efficiency metrics.

Winning a SB via defense and a subpar offense requires a defense playing at historic levels. The ‘85 bears,’00 Ravens, 2015 Broncos all played at historic levels. That’s 3 years out of the last 60. You have to essentially catch lightning in a bottle to win a SB with that formula.
It’s easier to land a Aaron Rodgers in the draft then it is to put together a ‘00 Ravens caliber defense.