Pete, culture, and quarterbacks

PNW25

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I think it goes without saying, Russell Wilson is a DIFFERENT kind/style of Quarterback, & Coaching for his tendencies to consistently leave the pocket & take off on a scramble, voided a lot of what Pete could do for him (clean Pocket) Etc., there were MANY TIMES that he took off running when he really didn't have to, he didn't take the many, many layups that were there for the taking.
'I can't help you if you won't let me'
Sure but there were also many, many plays were there was nothing and Russ made something out of nothing. The net gain with Russ was far more then then the net lost because of scramble plays. We had a historically bad line for years(Petes fault) and Russ had to play background football often just to sustain drives. I'm not a fan of the narrative that all the scrambling was all Russ when multiple years they lead the league in quick pressure which has nothing to do with the QB. People will view this how they want. If they love Pete then they will look for ways to make it all Wilsons fault and if they love Russ they will look for ways to make it all Pete's fault. I think the truth lies somewhere in between but I also believe Russ is an all time great so I'm going to slightly lean that direction.
 

pittpnthrs

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A game manager who is actually a good player.

It's John Stockton over Allen Iverson, to use Pete's point guard reference. Both great players, but one plays within the system and one IS the system. Pete just traded away the former.

The difference is when the game is on the line and you need that game winning basket, who would you rather have, Iverson or Stockton? With Carroll, theres a lot of games that need that last second shot.
 

pittpnthrs

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You're making a lot of assumptions about the D and the offense before even seeing so much as a practice, let alone a preseason game or an actual game. Maybe they'll suck. Maybe they won't. But we literally have NO way of knowing at this point.

And when you assume, you...

You sound like a Jets fan.

Is it really assumptions when basing an opinion on a pattern thats been in place for years?
 
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sc85sis

sc85sis

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You sound like a Jets fan.

Is it really assumptions when basing an opinion on a pattern thats been in place for years?
Considering we have a new D scheme and coordinator, new OTs, a new to-be-determined QB, an OC in only his second year, etc., etc., yes. There are far too many new variables this season to make any assumptions.
 

TwistedHusky

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It is enough change that expecting things to be exceptional sounds more like wishing than realistic analysis. Because there really is nothing to analyze.
We have nothing to base expectations on. Some success in the past few years but more not living up to expectations. And now that our QB that was engendering a lot of those wins is gone - it might get tougher.

Lock being good would be great. It is hard to imagine he will be as good as Wilson was. And we underperformed with Wilson.
But there really isn't even anything in place to expect that Lock will be good.
 

scutterhawk

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Sure but there were also many, many plays were there was nothing and Russ made something out of nothing. The net gain with Russ was far more then then the net lost because of scramble plays. We had a historically bad line for years(Petes fault) and Russ had to play background football often just to sustain drives. I'm not a fan of the narrative that all the scrambling was all Russ when multiple years they lead the league in quick pressure which has nothing to do with the QB. People will view this how they want. If they love Pete then they will look for ways to make it all Wilsons fault and if they love Russ they will look for ways to make it all Pete's fault. I think the truth lies somewhere in between but I also believe Russ is an all time great so I'm going to slightly lean that direction.
Back when he could turn on the jets, yes, that was his forte', but in the last couple years though, not so much, + building a Pass Protection O-Line for a Scrambling Quarterback like Wilson??, Really???
PLUS, the Rams Defense has homed in on his tendencies & stifled a lot of his escape-abilities.
Playing in the NFC WEST for the last 10 years, Wilson has had time to & learn how to better read those swarming Defenses, eh?
You are right in regards to folks taking sides & placing blame on the other, they both have had their shortcomings, but it's a fact that Wilson plays a UNIQUE style of football, and as such, there are some unique pitfalls that come with it.
All we have as a comparative, is guys like Tom Brady (the standard for the Quarterback STYLE of play), his longevity & successes, and let's be honest, it's a lot easier to Pass Block for him, than it is for a Scrambler.
Like I've already said, I have a #3 jersey, am/was a big fan of Wilson, but Pete is HC for a roster of 53.
I'm not a fan of just one Seahawk player or Coach, I'm a fan of the entire team.
 
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sc85sis

sc85sis

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Back when he could turn on the jets, yes, that was his forte', but in the last couple years though, not so much, + building a Pass Protection O-Line for a Scrambling Quarterback like Wilson??, Really???
PLUS, the Rams Defense has homed in on his tendencies & stifled a lot of his escape-abilities.
Playing in the NFC WEST for the last 10 years, Wilson has had time to & learn how to better read those swarming Defenses, eh?
You are right in regards to folks taking sides & placing blame on the other, they both have had their shortcomings, but it's a fact that Wilson plays a UNIQUE style of football, and as such, there are some unique pitfalls that come with it.
All we have as a comparative, is guys like Tom Brady (the standard for the Quarterback STYLE of play), his longevity & successes, and let's be honest, it's a lot easier to Pass Block for him, than it is for a Scrambler.
Like I've already said, I have a #3 jersey, am/was a big fan of Wilson, but Pete is HC for a roster of 53.
I'm not a fan of just one Seahawk player or Coach, I'm a fan of the entire team.
This is a pretty good summary for me. I'm a total Pete homer, yet I can still admit there are things I wish he'd done differently. I also see that despite the things he does great, Wilson has other areas that had begun to impact the team negatively. And for whatever reason (we'll probably never really know - nor do we need to), Pete and Russ were no longer on the same page.

A change was inevitable. I wish Russ well as long as he isn't playing the Hawks. But he's gone. Onto what's next! We have a lot of young talent on the team, and this does feel somewhat like 2011/2012 era again. That doesn't mean success is guaranteed, but the unknown is what makes it exciting right now.
 

Lagartixa

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I wish Russ well as long as he isn't playing the Hawks.

I don't, for two specific reasons, neither of which has much to do with Wilson himself.

1) I still have deep loathing in my heart for the Broncos from the Seahawks' days in the AFC West, plus extra-special loathing for The Teeth, for whom I wish for much failure and frustration.

2) The Seahawks get more Broncos draft picks next year from the Wilson trade, and to maximize the value of those picks, I'd like for the Broncos to suck as much as possible this year.
 

pittpnthrs

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Considering we have a new D scheme and coordinator, new OTs, a new to-be-determined QB, an OC in only his second year, etc., etc., yes. There are far too many new variables this season to make any assumptions.

But there's still that one variable that never seems to change.
 

Recon_Hawk

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The difference is when the game is on the line and you need that game winning basket, who would you rather have, Iverson or Stockton? With Carroll, theres a lot of games that need that last second shot.
Lots of winnable games at the end of it is a good thing. It's gives his QBs opportunities and just because a qb in this offense is playing within the framework of the team plan, it doesn't mean that qb can't take a game over when needed.
 

olyfan63

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The difference is when the game is on the line and you need that game winning basket, who would you rather have, Iverson or Stockton? With Carroll, theres a lot of games that need that last second shot.
I'd rather have Stockton, Malone, and Hornacek all able to take that last shot, rather than have Iverson go 1-on-5 and throw up some off-balance Hail Mary. MJ was the only guy who could make 1-on-5 actually work. So give me Stockton over Iverson. Stockton has made his share of GW shots because the D chose to take away Malone.

Here is the case in point:
 

olyfan63

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Russ before he thought he could do Patrick mahomes stuff
Russell actually can do a lot of the same stuff as Patrick Mahomes. I still remember his gunslinger shootouts Russell had vs Mahomes, then vs Watson, and throw in the one vs Roethlisberger, I think in 2015. IIRC correctly, Russell and the Hawks won all three of those super exciting games, with point totals in the 40s and 50s. There have been some good times, it was a great run, and now we get to see if Pete can work magic with some different QBs.
 

Fade

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On the meddling comments, there are levels to meddling.

There's the "I think we should run it here" over the headset in a critical situation. Which is fine, all HCs do that.

Then there's the OC has already called the play, HC gets on the headset and changes the play after the fact, causing a delay of game in the 4th qtr of the playoffs. Pete did this.

AND… "He's running my offense (even though I'm a defensive coach), and the new OC I just hired is going to add to that." That is what Pete said shortly after hiring Schotty.

They are all instances of meddling, but they are not the same. Levels.

=======

Pete's beliefs on how to handle the QB position are well documented at this point.

Strategically, he believes in building the team up first to properly support them. Defense, running game, etc. THEN you go get the QB.

Believe it or not most teams do it the opposite. They take the QB with a top pick with nothing around him, then act surprised when they flounder as they then scramble to build around said top pick. That would describe Lawrence, Fields, and Zach Wilson just last year, alone.

I agree with Pete in this area. And was not surprised when they didn't take any QBs in this draft class, as none of them were even remotely worthy of being the exception to that rule.

Skillset wise he is looking for a RW type. That is what is spooky, he had his prototype and he couldn't win a playoff game to save his life.

Once the team is built up: He wants a QB that takes care of the football, has a big arm, is mobile and can extend plays. All that plus can perform when the game is on the line.

Pete has his dogmatic religion, regardless if his players skillsets fit or not, square pegs be damned, we're jammin' 'em in there. it's about running the ball and playing great defense. And the QB plays off that. Meaning there are going to be stretches where the QB is going to be a professional ball warmer, more than they are a QB as Pete wastes 3 qtrs trying to feel out the other team. Pete will call their number in the 4th when he needs them to finally go win the game.

Any rookie QB stepping into that framework in today's NFL will fail, unless they are an absolute Superstar, and can overcome their coach as well as the opponent.

A new trend has formed and I hope Pete hops on the wagon. And that is teams are building themselves up, but instead of drafting a QB, they are going and getting a highend veteran.

2020: TB - Brady
2021: LA - Stafford
2022: DEN - Wilson

I'd like Seattle to trade for a great veteran QB if available, rather than a 20% dice roll on a 1st round rookie QB. Only 1 in 5 QBs taken in the 1st round since 2000 would be qualified as franchise guys. While a veteran Brady, Stafford, Wilson, Montana, Farve, Manning, etc. is 100%.

The narrative out there that Pete is some kinda QB whisperer is odd. College is college. Carson who he had the least amount of time with is the only one who did anything in the NFL. In the pros, no QBs did anything substantive under Pete, or even show massive improvement. Wilson is the one guy in Pete's NFL career you can point to, and he is a unicorn. Unicorn's don't grow on trees, if you will.

This season will be a reminder once again, that you need a QB to win in the NFL, and they are hard to find. If you've been watching the NFL for any length of time, you already know this of course.

You want to see it look like the 2011 season ideally. Where they have a top 5 defense, and a top 5 running game, finish with a mediocre record, but they are just a QB away from being contenders again.
 

pittpnthrs

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I'd rather have Stockton, Malone, and Hornacek all able to take that last shot, rather than have Iverson go 1-on-5 and throw up some off-balance Hail Mary. MJ was the only guy who could make 1-on-5 actually work. So give me Stockton over Iverson. Stockton has made his share of GW shots because the D chose to take away Malone.

Here is the case in point:


Stockton always had a more talented team than Iverson did in Philly, but they both had the same success. Strange isnt it? I love Stockton, but I wouldnt want him if there wasnt any talent to compliment him.

Here's 10 game winners from the guy you didnt choose.

 
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Sgt. Largent

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I think Pete's system works better in College


He won a Superbowl and assembled and developed one of the greatest NFL defenses of all time, and turned a 5 foot nothing QB into one of best QB's in the entire league for a solid decade.

What a weird take.

I said the same thing, in 2011.
 
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