ME3 to start!

bigskydoc

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
4,845
Reaction score
2,260
Location
Kalispell, MT
The problem with analyzing Russ with advanced metrics is, he doesn't play that game. He plays his own game, and that game doesn't grade well on advanced metrics. It's a game that isn't going to appeal to Payton's ego, because it won't make Payton look like the offensive genius that he makes himself out to be. That's why Russ could never succeed in Payton's system. That's why Payton ditched him.

I'm not saying Payton is necessarily wrong, or that Russ's game will necessarily be successful elsewhere, just that they are a terrible match.

The NFL pendulum is swinging back toward a more Carroll style of ball control offense combined with a smothering defense. Even the Chiefs have been more defensive focused lately, and they have one of the best pure QBs ever. Pair Russ with a coach that doesn't care about flashy, advanced QB play, a coach that just wants ball control and close, tight games, and Russ, humbled from his experience of trying to be a pure QB, will likely find success.
 

Palmegranite

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
1,996
Reaction score
801
Location
CAN
... It's a game that isn't going to appeal to Payton's ego, because it won't make Payton look like the offensive genius that he makes himself out to be. That's why Russ could never succeed in Payton's system. That's why Payton ditched him.

I'm not saying Payton is necessarily wrong, or that Russ's game will necessarily be successful elsewhere, just that they are a terrible match.

The
Here's a match made in hell:
Sean Payton coaching Lamar Jackson...
 

IndyHawk

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
8,974
Reaction score
2,633
But now you’ve moved the goal posts. I never said it was all him and neither has a single person in here. Again you don’t have his efficiency numbers solely throwing moon balls. How you guys miss this point is odd to me. How was his completion %, td/int, passer rating, two minute drive success, GWDs were you have to be ultra efficient and surgically move the ball down the field if he only throws 50/50 balls? That sounds ridiculous if you truly think on that point does it not?

Damn it I said I was out of this lol but I am after this one.
We are just going to keep disagreeing, no matter how much I or others put up there
really.. I'm tired of trying so I'm out with you lol.
I will say let's see what he does against better teams with a D than the Jets.
 

Ozzy

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
11,647
Reaction score
6,495
We are just going to keep disagreeing, no matter how much I or others put up there
really.. I'm tired of trying so I'm out with you lol.
I will say let's see what he does against better teams with a D than the Jets.
It’s true we’re never going to move on this lol. I don’t think any less of anyone for holding the other view even though they’re wrong 😁

But seriously we should all allow others to disagree with us and be cool with it, have fun talking crap to each other in good fun and realize we’re all fans of the same team and that trumps any side issue
 

Sun Tzu

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 28, 2016
Messages
617
Reaction score
757
Location
Corvallis
I don’t mean to and even said it may not be you so apologies if it still came across that way.

I said anyone (including me right?) can cherry pick stats to say what we want them to say. Did you miss that part?

I’ve deep dived into the advanced metrics a million times on here so I’m just not interested in it. If you think Wilson survived throwing 50/50 deep balls and that’s it then we’re probably not going to get very far with each other because we are on polar ends of this debate. Every single time this debate pops up it gets personal and ruins future football discussions and I’m just not interested in it. I understand that is frustrating but hopefully you understand where I’m coming from at least a little bit.
Why do you feel compelled to lie to support your opinion rather than backing your opinion up with data?

If you have actually done a "deep dive" into advanced metrics (I'm pretty sure no one here believes you have done a "deep dive" or even know what advanced metrics are for that matter), why not present the data rather than making vague unsubstantiated claims?
 

Ozzy

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
11,647
Reaction score
6,495
Why do you feel compelled to lie to support your opinion rather than backing your opinion up with data?

If you have actually done a "deep dive" into advanced metrics (I'm pretty sure no one here believes you have done a "deep dive" or even know what advanced metrics are for that matter), why not present the data rather than making vague unsubstantiated claims?
this is a warning to quit with the personal attacks. You do this every time this topic comes up. If you want debate topics stick to the post and not the poster
 

knownone

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2010
Messages
5,805
Reaction score
2,953
It's worth noting that until 2021, Russ was a juggernaut in most advanced metrics. At one point, he was one of the most efficient down-to-down QBs in the league. Now? He's one of the least efficient.

As Russ has aged, two significant things have happened: 1) His success rate, defined as the percentage of plays with an EPA greater than 0, has declined, and 2) his explosive play opportunities generated (for lack of a better term) have decreased. A reduction in explosive play opportunities leads to a greater reliance on converting the remaining chances.

Here’s a slight simplification: if you go from generating 10 opportunities to only generating 6, even if your conversion rate remains the same at 50%, it's still a 40% loss in production.

This is the Russell Wilson paradox. He’s still an elite downfield passer, and when he converts those few opportunities at a high rate as he did against the Jets, he can look like the same old Russ. However, when those moonballs start bouncing off fingertips or come up short, his performance can resemble Jacoby Brissett's efficiency. That’s not a recipe for consistent offensive success. Instead, it creates a highly volatile offense—one that may look terrible for three drives and then effortlessly score a touchdown before trending back down.

Luckily, the Steelers are the one team that has proven they can win that style of offense.
 

flv2

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2022
Messages
1,823
Reaction score
1,426
Location
Bournemouth, UK
Strikes me as not a great sign that Denver willingly took an $85 million cap hit over the next two years and is paying him $38 million this year to play for a different team.
That wasn't the issue. Playing this season would have guaranteed Wilson another fortune next season. The choice was get nothing from him at a cost of $38M or get 2 seasons from him at a cost of $72M. They didn't think he was worth $17M per season so they made a business decision. Bottom line: It was a terrible contract extension.
 

flv2

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2022
Messages
1,823
Reaction score
1,426
Location
Bournemouth, UK
Wilson has never been a timing play QB, and that's a key factor in the modern game. He has always preferred to extend plays or throw to the perimeter of the defense. That was great when he had the legs to escape outside the pocket because he could then also find the gaps in the middle of the field. He no longer has the legs to extend plays and he still can't hit receivers over the middle on timing plays. He had good results against the Jets throwing low-risk, high-yield touch passes that normally have a low completion rate. He has always been exceptionally good at that. If this is all he has left then going forward he'll be a low yards-per-dropback passer.
 

flv2

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2022
Messages
1,823
Reaction score
1,426
Location
Bournemouth, UK
I hope Cooper Kupp isn't traded to the Steelers. Kupp is a timing pass WR rather than a broken-play athlete. Wilson and Kupp would be a square-peg round-hole combination.
 

keasley45

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Messages
5,008
Reaction score
9,106
Location
Cockeysville, Md
X100
It's worth noting that until 2021, Russ was a juggernaut in most advanced metrics. At one point, he was one of the most efficient down-to-down QBs in the league. Now? He's one of the least efficient.

As Russ has aged, two significant things have happened: 1) His success rate, defined as the percentage of plays with an EPA greater than 0, has declined, and 2) his explosive play opportunities generated (for lack of a better term) have decreased. A reduction in explosive play opportunities leads to a greater reliance on converting the remaining chances.

Here’s a slight simplification: if you go from generating 10 opportunities to only generating 6, even if your conversion rate remains the same at 50%, it's still a 40% loss in production.

This is the Russell Wilson paradox. He’s still an elite downfield passer, and when he converts those few opportunities at a high rate as he did against the Jets, he can look like the same old Russ. However, when those moonballs start bouncing off fingertips or come up short, his performance can resemble Jacoby Brissett's efficiency. That’s not a recipe for consistent offensive success. Instead, it creates a highly volatile offense—one that may look terrible for three drives and then effortlessly score a touchdown before trending back down.

Luckily, the Steelers are the one team that has proven they can win that style of offense.

This x 100

Advanced metrics be damned.

Russ's calling card has been

1. His high comp % because he held the ball so long AND because he does have a gifted arm.

2. His ability to extend plays and THEN find the deep strike, which boosts YPC, explosives and TDs.

3. His ability to limit turnovers because he rarley throws the ball in the flow of the play, preferring to hold the ball and throw it to the WIDE open guy when coverage breaks down.

Thats not to say he CANT throwing timing routes, but throwing into tight windows in between defenders and to wr's transitioning between zone windows on the move was never and still isnt his game.

And thats ok, because he has managed to work around it.

But to pretend the work-around is a sure-fire ticket to winning football and sustainable offense is ludicrous.

It will ALWAYS produce the stats Russ has generated by shear fact that he's distributing the ball when HE wants to and not when the offense says he should or when a wr is open by a half step. He simply does not throw those routes. Payton saw it and told him that if he wasnt gonna throw it when it needed to be thrown, then he should just check it down. And he did. At a league leading rate.

But if you role with Russ, you can kiss half of your playbook goodbye and just , as Pete did, make the scramble drill a staple of practice, because thats where the majority of Russ's work is done.

You dont need advanced meteic to see who and what he has been, well before his fall in 21.


There is a reason he has AlWAYS been the only qb considered top tier who was average (sometimes better, sometimes worse) at sustaining drives. His positive stats point to him being stellar. The less galmorous, less discussed stats related to 3rd down passing success, passing success in known passing downs, average drive duration, average plays per drive tell a very different story.

And unfortunately at .net, his failures (because his successess were so otherworldly spectacular) were attributed to 'others' when in fact, they were always his. He was (and is) outstanding at certain aspects of the game, and is wooefully inadequate in others. He is both and has been from the beginning. The fall off he experienced when leaving here wasnt because he forgot how to play, was gunshy, got happy feet or was forced into a bad relationship with his coach. No, he faltered because he was FORCED to play through those aspects of QBing that elite qbs master as their staple and couldnt. He didnt have to do it in Seattle because Pete allowed him to just be Russ.

In Pittsburgh, he has as close to the Seattle sutuation as he will likely ever get - a system predicated on string defense, running the ball, and an offemse thats just creative enough to not lose the game. If the defensr and running game in Pitt can create the mulligan style flexibility for the offense to run in fits and starts because with Russ, it will never be methodical or predictable tbrough the air, and Me3 is allowed to affe t the game on 3 or 4 plays for the better when he is just being him, he can do well.

But he is who he is.
 

sc85sis

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Messages
8,606
Reaction score
1,473
Location
Houston Suburbs
I’m still ticked off about what he allegedly tried to do before his departure from Seattle. I think he let his ego get too big and deserved the humble pie he was served in Denver.

That said, I don’t think Russ is a bad guy. Super cringey at times, but not a bad person. And he still throws a sexy deep ball.

Good luck to him.
 

SeAhAwKeR4life

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
8,188
Reaction score
1,862
Location
Port Townsend, WA
Russell will be successful with the Stealers, and barring him winning a superb owl for them, I'm all for it. I suppose if they faced the Niners, Rams or Packers, Cowboys or Eagles I'd root for them, but I don't see Russ going to another superb owl, not cuz of him, just cuz it's super hard!
 

Ozzy

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
11,647
Reaction score
6,495
It's worth noting that until 2021, Russ was a juggernaut in most advanced metrics. At one point, he was one of the most efficient down-to-down QBs in the league. Now? He's one of the least efficient.

As Russ has aged, two significant things have happened: 1) His success rate, defined as the percentage of plays with an EPA greater than 0, has declined, and 2) his explosive play opportunities generated (for lack of a better term) have decreased. A reduction in explosive play opportunities leads to a greater reliance on converting the remaining chances.

Here’s a slight simplification: if you go from generating 10 opportunities to only generating 6, even if your conversion rate remains the same at 50%, it's still a 40% loss in production.

This is the Russell Wilson paradox. He’s still an elite downfield passer, and when he converts those few opportunities at a high rate as he did against the Jets, he can look like the same old Russ. However, when those moonballs start bouncing off fingertips or come up short, his performance can resemble Jacoby Brissett's efficiency. That’s not a recipe for consistent offensive success. Instead, it creates a highly volatile offense—one that may look terrible for three drives and then effortlessly score a touchdown before trending back down.

Luckily, the Steelers are the one team that has proven they can win that style of offense.
This is actually a fair post and while you call me some Russ homer this is not far off from how I view it.
 

Sperrydogg

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 1, 2023
Messages
2,917
Reaction score
1,851
Location
Port Angeles Washington in the mountains
Russell will be successful with the Stealers, and barring him winning a superb owl for them, I'm all for it. I suppose if they faced the Niners, Rams or Packers, Cowboys or Eagles I'd root for them, but I don't see Russ going to another superb owl, not cuz of him, just cuz it's super hard!
I saw a superb owl the other day it swooped down on me on the highway and I almost hit it. Hoot hoot
 

Latest posts

Top