Me3 starting to lower his goals

SantaClaraHawk

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IMO that's not a concern. There's a lot of quarterbacks in that boat. Carson Wentz and Baker Mayfield have each been with 4 HC's in as many seasons.

That’s not the same situation at all. Wentz and Mayfield for example both showed they could listen to Sean McVay, whereas Russ hasn’t, satisfactorily.
 

RiverDog

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That’s the exact reverse Outcome of the same known problem. Hackett let Russ cook until he, Hackett, was immolated.
So Hackett was aware of this "known problem" of Russell not listening to his coaches which is why he let Russ cook?

IMO Russell did listen to his coaches in Seattle, at least initially, which is why he and the team were successful. Coaches and players were on the same page. Over the course of the last 4-5 years with us, he began to harbor a different opinion as to the best offense for the Seahawks to the point where the relationship was irreparable. If you want to call that "not listening to his coaches", although I wouldn't characterize it like that, I could accept it.

In Russell's first season with Denver, Hackett yearned to build his offense around his franchise quarterback, or in other words, "Let Russ Cook" as he had done something similar with Aaron Rodgers in Green Bay and had great success. It had nothing to do with a so-called reputation for not listening to coaches. Obviously, it was an abject failure on the part of both the coach and the player.

In Russell's last season with Denver, he was subjected to a much more rigged, structured system under Sean Payton than he was used to under both Hackett and Carroll, a polar opposite philosophy to "Let Russ Cook." It wasn't an intentional not listening so much as it was a "can't teach an old dog new tricks" sort of a thing. Russell did not fit Payton's style of offense as Russell was too used to playing a certain brand of football. It had nothing to do with insubordination as you seem to be suggesting.
 

SantaClaraHawk

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So Hackett was aware of this "known problem" of Russell not listening to his coaches which is why he let Russ cook?

IMO Russell did listen to his coaches in Seattle, at least initially, which is why he and the team were successful. Coaches and players were on the same page. Over the course of the last 4-5 years with us, he began to harbor a different opinion as to the best offense for the Seahawks to the point where the relationship was irreparable. If you want to call that "not listening to his coaches", although I wouldn't characterize it like that, I could accept it.

In Russell's first season with Denver, Hackett yearned to build his offense around his franchise quarterback, or in other words, "Let Russ Cook" as he had done something similar with Aaron Rodgers in Green Bay and had great success. It had nothing to do with a so-called reputation for not listening to coaches. Obviously, it was an abject failure on the part of both the coach and the player.

In Russell's last season with Denver, he was subjected to a much more rigged, structured system under Sean Payton than he was used to under both Hackett and Carroll, a polar opposite philosophy to "Let Russ Cook." It wasn't an intentional not listening so much as it was a "can't teach an old dog new tricks" sort of a thing. Russell did not fit Payton's style of offense as Russell was too used to playing a certain brand of football. It had nothing to do with insubordination as you seem to be suggesting.

It’s not so much he won’t adjust, it’s that he almost can’t, just as you said, old dog, new tricks.

He was never a qb2 (except for his last two games in Denver) not learning to emulate different styles in practice while being challenged by his own defense, even in the good years. It is hard for him to learn new things as a result.

This is Russ in a nutshell.
 
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RiverDog

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It’s not so much he won’t adjust, it’s that he almost can’t, just as you said, old dog, new tricks.

He was never a qb2 (except for his last two games in Denver) not learning to emulate different styles in practice while being challenged by his own defense, even in the good years. It is hard for him to learn new things as a result.

This is Russ in a nutshell.

My point was that Russell wasn't/isn't insubordinate, at least from our vantage point like you were making it sound.
 

SantaClaraHawk

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“Insubordination“ maybe isn’t the right word. (And hello fellow hawk with insomnia!) Maybe that word is “infuriating.”
 
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RiverDog

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Insubordination maybe isn’t the right word. (And hello fellow hawk with insomnia!) Maybe that word is “infuriating.”
I can handle that. If Russell had come out of college and ran a structured offense like Payton runs, then he might not have developed the habits that are now so hard for him to break. We have to remember that Russ broke into the league when the college-style read option was the in thing with QB's like RG3 and Kaepernick, and Russell ran it as well as anybody.

Yes, I'm an early riser. I'm usually in bed before 9pm. In the summer, I'm out at 5am taking my dog for a walk in order to beat the heat and the rattlesnakes. Once I'm done with my laundry and dishes, I'll hit the torture chamber and work on my elliptical machine.
 

LastRideOut

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I can handle that. If Russell had come out of college and ran a structured offense like Payton runs, then he might not have developed the habits that are now so hard for him to break. We have to remember that Russ broke into the league when the college-style read option was the in thing with QB's like RG3 and Kaepernick, and Russell ran it as well as anybody.

Yes, I'm an early riser. I'm usually in bed before 9pm. In the summer, I'm out at 5am taking my dog for a walk in order to beat the heat and the rattlesnakes. Once I'm done with my laundry and dishes, I'll hit the torture chamber and work on my elliptical machine.

Russ never "developed" the habits. He always had 'em. It's just that when he was younger, he could create plays and that ability masked his deficiencies. And the team won... alot.

But as the team got weaker, and Russ became the central focus. Well, we all know what happened, so no need to repeat it ad nauseam.

Weaker teams, generally need excellent and precise QB play. A good example of this was the Colt team that won the SB under Manning. Team was kinda OK, kinda meh. But they won the Owl.. over a Grossman-led Bears team.

That, to me, is what people wanted to see Russ as, including Russ himself.

Just wasn't so. Not that kind of QB.
 

RiverDog

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Russ never "developed" the habits. He always had 'em. It's just that when he was younger, he could create plays and that ability masked his deficiencies. And the team won... alot.

But as the team got weaker, and Russ became the central focus. Well, we all know what happened, so no need to repeat it ad nauseam.

Weaker teams, generally need excellent and precise QB play. A good example of this was the Colt team that won the SB under Manning. Team was kinda OK, kinda meh. But they won the Owl.. over a Grossman-led Bears team.

That, to me, is what people wanted to see Russ as, including Russ himself.

Just wasn't so. Not that kind of QB.
I think we're saying essentially the same thing. Whether he acquired the habits or whether it was always with him, it was something that he couldn't change.

Going way back in time Fran Tarkenton, former QB for the Vikings and Giants, came up as the ultimate scrambling quarterback, a player much like Russell right down their identical height and reverse spin to escape sacks. Scrambl'in Fran was able to modify his game as he got older and as a result, continued to perform at a high level, winning the league MVP at the age of 35 and leading the league in passing at 38, the same year he retired. One can argue that Tarkenton was a better quarterback in his 30's than he was in his 20's.

I thought that Russell could and would make a similar adjustment, get the ball out of his hands quicker, play more like a WCO-type quarterback. I was wrong.
 

xray

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All he had to do was hand the gawddam ball to Lynch . Everything went dark after that .
 

MizzouHawkGal

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I think we're saying essentially the same thing. Whether he acquired the habits or whether it was always with him, it was something that he couldn't change.

Going way back in time Fran Tarkenton, former QB for the Vikings and Giants, came up as the ultimate scrambling quarterback, a player much like Russell right down their identical height and reverse spin to escape sacks. Scrambl'in Fran was able to modify his game as he got older and as a result, continued to perform at a high level, winning the league MVP at the age of 35 and leading the league in passing at 38, the same year he retired. One can argue that Tarkenton was a better quarterback in his 30's than he was in his 20's.

I thought that Russell could and would make a similar adjustment, get the ball out of his hands quicker, play more like a WCO-type quarterback. I was wrong.
Interesting comparison and I also thought he would evolve like Tark..nope.
 

SantaClaraHawk

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The thing that’s really wild is that the issue Russ brought to the league and Union should have had no credence with either. The teams just have to pay the players on contract but do not have to play them.
 
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