Is Russell Wilson worth extending?

Scottemojo

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Spin Doctor":1r9qfv5p said:
I gave you too much credit at the start of this thread. There have been games when Wilson carried the Hawks. Whether he has to or not is immaterial, when he has had too, he has.

You ignore things that have happened, and invent things that have not. You love the traditional model, and in doing so laud a QB who could not perform in the clutch with great weapons around him just 9 months ago.

It isn't important to me that you like Russ. I have concerns too. But ignoring how big he has been when it has really mattered makes your voice null and void.
I do not take much stock in 'game winning drives' or comeback victories. I'm a firm believe that if an offense is doing its job that one wouldn't be in that position in the first place. This is especially true for a team such as Seattle's that keeps teams games low scoring affairs.

One drive or two drives are much easier to engineer than a whole games worth of play. It is this very reason that I've never been very impressed with Andrew Luck's late game heroics. His play put the team in that very position in the first place, just like Seattle's impotent offense has put our team in the position of being down late in the 4th quarter.

And yes, Wilson has had a few REALLY good comebacks, and games with tremendous offensive production, but my question is can he do it on a regular basis? By this I mean production on offense. Many of Wilson's comebacks were low scoring affairs that the defense kept close with a few exceptions (NE, TAMPA)
John Elway. Joe Montana. Comeback kings.
Russ is in his third year, like Luck Your myopia of that fact is insane.
 

onanygivensunday

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To not extend Russell is ludicrous.

With a decent running game, a decent O-line and a good defense, he will put Seattle in a position to contend for a title every year.

What else could a fan base ask for.
 

oldhawkfan

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You absolutely do not extend Russell Wilson or even wait a year and resign him him when his contract is up...if you want to win your fantasy league. However, if you are playing real football with real human brings trying to knock the shit out of each other and you have a QB that fits perfectly with what you do while setting numerous NFL records as well as being the best QB In franchise history, then lock him up with an extension the very second rules allow it! Fantasy football has severely skewed people's ability to gauge players real effectiveness to their teams success!
 

Tical21

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There are essentially straight-forward questions to consider for this debate.

1. Is ANY quarterback worth paying 100+ to? To what level does a contract that large decrease your chances of winning Super Bowls?

2. If yes, is Russell Wilson in the class of quarterbacks that deserved to be paid in that fashion?


Okay, so kinda three questions.
 

drdiags

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The Seahawks have shown that they will pay a premium price for the position with their attempts to get the position where they wanted it. I am sure during the negotiations with Wilson's agents the team will have to speak to any concerns they have for long term, but the team has heavily invested into Wilson already as the face of the franchise.

They have shown they will extend those players they drafted and deem "one of their core guys". There is no way around it, the team will have to pay a decent price for Wilson and the bill will have come due starting next year. They cannot ask for others to be "I'm In!" and then waffle when given a chance to commit long term to the leader some players claim are too close to management (if you believe the Freeman article and other rumors floating out of the locker room).

Is he worth extending? Yes, if you want to live up to your word of produce and you will get your due once the time comes. The QB salary range is crazy but as pointed out by folks, it is something you have to plan for as your team building reaches steady state.

The first wave of young stars have begun reaching the second contract stage, where costs take off. Sherman, Kam and Earl are there now. Lynch is moving out of that group due to long term planning. As I mentioned earlier, you can delay ultimately paying the premium QB price, but it will be paid.

It isn't so much whether Wilson fits Joe Fan's vision of what a top-tier QB looks like, it is whether the FO and coaching staff feels they have their man. Thus the caveat about as long as JS/PC are here, Wilson is the man for them right now and it is time to pay up. These guys are putting in financial plans with ~3 yrs forecasts. They aren't going to be cutting someone unexpectedly due to signing the QB. If things change in the next few years, most likely the contract will not be one that hamstrings them anymore than any other of these current QB contracts do.
 

razor150

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-The Glove-":9ihle80y said:
razor150":9ihle80y said:
Spin Doctor":9ihle80y said:
This may sound like sacrilege to many to the 9th degree, but it has been a question that has been nagging at the back of my mind for awhile. Wilson is going to due a huge pay day soon somewhere in the range of 120 million dollars. He is going to be one of the best, if not the best paid Quarterback in the NFL. This means the roster is going to have to undergo a serious makeover. No longer can we have big free agent acquisitions, this contract will certainly mean letting go of a few contributors on our team at this moment. We won the superbowl last year largely to a team that was good in all phases of the game. We can no longer count on that to be the case in the future, as we're already starting to see this season.

In lieu of the looming future the question I'm asking myself is: Can Wilson carry the team, can he be that elite QB that can carry the team on his back. If we re-sign him Wilson is going to have to shoulder a much larger burden, as it is going to cost the team in a few extra areas.

Russell Wilson is a good Quarterback, certainly better than the washed up Hasselbeck, the Flynns, TJs, and Whitehursts of this world. I have my doubts though as to whether he can transcend his point guard Quarterback status.

If you believe he will be one of the best, if not the best QB in the NFL then it is a no-brainer. You extend him. I think he is good, but I don't know if you can elevate him to that level.

However, our offense stinks, as does the passing game. The 20 to 25 million a year for Wilson that is being thrown around he just isn't worth at this point in his career. You can't blame having the 30th ranked passing attack on everybody but Wilson. Great QBs have done well with poor OLines and pedestrian receivers, he just isn't elevating the players around him. He has had a lot of 4th quarter comebacks in his young career, but I would like to see a lot more consistency from him before he gets one of the insane contracts QBs get.

I am not saying we let him walk, because it isn't easy finding a good QB, I just don't think he is worth what he is likely to demand in negotiations.
Last year people were saying Tom Brady was done without Gronk and throwing to the likes of UDFA Kenbrell Thompkins

Yet Tom Brady still had a great year with those awful receivers but just not a year pundits expected from the great Tom Brad. It isn't like I an saying Wilson is done, he just doesn't elevate those around him to play better most of the time.

theincrediblesok":9ihle80y said:
Last year we were 26th in passing and won a Superbowl. The reason we are 30th is because we are a run first team. Look at the Redskins (Passing almost 40 times a game) they are 3rd in pass ranking but are 3-6. Russell will get his groove back. There are blames to go around but i guess focusing on the leader of the team is an easy pick. Looks like Wilson will never win against the media or his own team's fans. I would hate the day where he goes to another team and lights up the NFL ala Drew Brees.

I specifically said that we shouldn't let him walk, just that everybody makes excuses for how poorly Wilson plays for most of a game or games even though his situation isn't exactly unique. Saying I don't think he is worth the money DOES NOT mean we let him walk and go back to trying the crapshoot that is FA and the draft for QBs. Frankly letting Wilson walk would be stupid. That is the problem with QBs, they can hold teams hostage for more money then they frankly deserve because no one wants to take the chances on loosing even a mediocre QB (which btw I am not calling Wilson mediocre). I fully expect Wilson to take advantage of that, and then we'll find out if he can carry the whole team when everything is on his shoulders and he doesn't have the defense he had the first 3 years of his career and no Lynch to fall back on. He'll either sink or swim, and this team will go how he goes. Honestly I just don't know how good we'll be then.

However, thanks for the irrelevant responses though.
 

Scottemojo

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Tical21":2inmvzq8 said:
There are essentially straight-forward questions to consider for this debate.

1. Is ANY quarterback worth paying 100+ to? To what level does a contract that large decrease your chances of winning Super Bowls?

2. If yes, is Russell Wilson in the class of quarterbacks that deserved to be paid in that fashion?


Okay, so kinda three questions.

1A. Phrasing it as 100+ seems a bit biased from the start. How many years? How much per year? The reality is that QBs ARE getting that money, which renders the question moot anyway. 1B. The list of teams in the playoffs who don't have the QB position locked up at 14 mil plus is always going to be a short list. What choice do you have? Try and build once in a decade defenses that coincide with a really good running game, and hope you get a game manager (who are really just as rare as elite QBs) that is good enough? That strikes me as even more difficult than paying the guy who gets you to the dance annually.

2. Absolutely. I see it like this. If there were a training camp for a team that included every single WR and TE and RB and OL in the NFC west, how many current Seahawks would be on that roster? Lynch? That would be pretty much it. Wilson wins with a pretty lackluster cast around him. He is pretty damn good in the clutch. It will feel ugly on a dollars per yard basis, but measuring Russell has never been about that. He is paid to tilt the field.
 

bevellisthedevil

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I am not going to quote anything from this thread.

All I have to say is ask anyone outside the NFC West (fan wise) to name one receiver from the Seahawks. I am guessing 90% would not know anyone. Our line was at its best during the Superbowl run and it wasn't very good. Our o-line are maulers which is great for the running game, not so much for pass protection. Arguably, our best lineman was converted from the D-line and is in his third or fourth year.

Everyone is clamoring to get Zac Miller back including me and it isn't to catch the ball. It is so Wilson has more than 1/2 second to pass the ball to receivers that get limited separation. Defenses are cheating up because they know Wilson's line sucks and the receivers are average.

As far as pocket presence arguments, I don't even know where to start. Its like you are asking Wilson to stand in front a tsunami and not get wet.

If I was Wilson I would ask for 15 million and year and demand that the Hawks take the extra 5-10 million and look for a free agent lineman in addition using a majority of their picks on solid lineman with technique.

But if the front office continues to take the best player available in the draft and picks not based on need, Wilson should ask for 50 million a year because he isn't going to last long.

Wilson has always had to quarterback with one arm tied behind his back because of his o-line. This year because of Dr. Bevell and Mr. Hyde, he has had to quarterback at times with no arms because he won't use Lynch.

Wilson is the franchise QB. Honestly, what else does this guy need to do?
 

scutterhawk

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SoulfishHawk":33xmuocl said:
No stock in game winning drives??? Now I've heard it all. :rofl:
No,,, No you haven't, just wait a minute or two, and 'Spin Doctor' will dump some more nonsense on us.
Some people won't admit that they're wrong about Russell Wilson, even when they know that deep down, they are.
Gives praise to the Defense for the W's, and the blame for the L's on Russell Wilson.
 

Anthony!

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So I am only going to say one more thing on this. The few who say things like;

"He has no pocket management skills. "
"He never steps up in the pocket even when his line is playing good."
"He does not know how to set up his blockers like Manning and Brady do, and he has always held onto the ball for way longer than he should. "

And the like really do not get it at all. They do not watch games, listen to what PC says, or anything if they did they would not say the stuff as it is clearly not true. However they do and do so because all they want to do is gripe, they are clearly not Wilson fans and probably trolls. Makes a lot of these statements in a vacume without looking at the contributing factors to things. Such as PS saying he wants to get a lead and then let the Defense win I so we go into prevent offense. Which means we do little. However again they do not care about truth only their agenda, and talking out of both sides of their mouths.


The you have people saying;
"Yet Tom Brady still had a great year with those awful receivers but just not a year pundits expected from the great Tom Brad. It isn't like I an saying Wilson is done, he just doesn't elevate those around him to play better most of the time. " were to start first Rw is playing with a bunch of undrafted Wr and an oline that is crap and yet we are 5-3 and last year won the SB so obviously he elevates people around him that is just a silly thing to say. The as to Bradys great year really, he was barley a 60% complt%, that is not great and was 21st last year, he has a QB rating of 87 that is avg and was 17th last year. his YPA of 6.92 was 22nd last year. He had a 2/1 td/int ratio which is not good. Obviously you are a fantasy guy because the only thing he did well In was yards which throwing the ball over 600 times one would expect to be good. In fact he only had 25 tds.

So lets see Tom Brady one of the best QBs ever did the below last year when he supposedly did not have much with not much.

Brady 628 attempts, 4343 yards, 60% complt, 6.92 ypa, 25tds, 11ints, 87 QB rating, 18 rushing yards, 0 tds

Right now Rw is on pace for
Rw 484 attempts, 3338 yards, 63% complt, 6.90 YPA, 22 tds, 6 ints, 93 qb rating. and 786 rushing yards, 6 tds

Wait a minute how can this be Rw has just as good if not better stats with nothing than the great Tom Brady had with nothing and did so playing in a harder division and conference. OH and if you take into account the difference in attempts and move Rws numbers accordingly you get the below

Rw 628 Attempts, 4333 yards, 63% complt%, 6.90 YPA, 29 tds, 7 ints, 93 qb rating, and still 786 rushing yards and 6 tds

Wow amazing .

What all this boils down to is a select few who make statements without knowing the facts behind them and then arguing them and refusing to admit the facts show them wrong, that is the anti Rw group. And FYI last year NE pass blocking was ranked 9th in the league a far cry form Seattle 32nd last year, and way better than what Seattle sis this year. So Brady still had more around him.

ITs about knowing your facts and anit Rw group do not know their facts only their incorrect beliefs.
 

IndyHawk

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scutterhawk":sjizewxi said:
Spin Doctor":sjizewxi said:
Just look at Manning, it's no accident that he has had a top 10 pass blocking line almost every year he has been in the league, even with his all-pro starting left tackle out in 2013
Yeah, let's do look at Manning--------Super Bowl 48 :roll:
As someone that has the Colts as ther 2nd favorite team since I've lived here,I watched Peyton and Luck from the start..The thing is you have to realize these QBs are tall big guys with arms..I mean they can see over the Off linemen and throw bullets if pressured in a second..They do not need all pro OL to flourish..The QBs have made them look better with the quick timing passes that keep the defense(s) from attacking like they would say Wilson..I don't know if Russ can stay in the pocket if he isn't able to see over whats coming like PM or Luck can...The lack of quick pass- slant timing plays
also hurts him..Lots of questionable stuff to be answered before they shower him with 30% of the cap...
 

Anthony!

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IndyHawk":1t10ikec said:
scutterhawk":1t10ikec said:
Spin Doctor":1t10ikec said:
Just look at Manning, it's no accident that he has had a top 10 pass blocking line almost every year he has been in the league, even with his all-pro starting left tackle out in 2013
Yeah, let's do look at Manning--------Super Bowl 48 :roll:
As someone that has the Colts as ther 2nd favorite team since I've lived here,I watched Peyton and Luck from the start..The thing is you have to realize these QBs are tall big guys with arms..I mean they can see over the Off linemen and throw bullets if pressured in a second..They do not need all pro OL to flourish..The QBs have made them look better with the quick timing passes that keep the defense(s) from attacking like they would say Wilson..I don't know if Russ can stay in the pocket if he isn't able to see over whats coming like PM or Luck can...The lack of quick pass- slant timing plays
also hurts him..Lots of questionable stuff to be answered before they shower him with 30% of the cap...

:pukeface:
 
OP
OP
S

Spin Doctor

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Dude do not address me, I should never have responded to you, nothing you say is even remotely accurate.
Is it not true that Golden Tate is top 5 in receiving yards this year? Is it also not true that Zach Miller was considered a top 10 tight end before coming to Seattle? Is it also not true that Doug Baldwin has been Mr. reliable as a slot receiver? Is it not true that a QB that gets rid of the ball quickly makes an offensive line look better?[/quote]
Is it not true that Golden Tate's current team is consistently one of the most pass-happy teams in the league.
Is it not true that Zach Miller is also one of the best blocking TE's in the league and has been relegated to being an extra linemen because of our porous OL.
The one about Baldwin, I admit, I don't get. RW trusts Baldwin to be "Mr. Reliable" hence all of the ridiculous 3rd and sideline throws to him.[/quote]
Is it not true that a horrible offensive line makes a QB hold onto the ball much longer?[/quote]
This makes no sense whatsoever. Did you not read the two articles that I posted earlier? It stated that sacks and pressures are largely a function of the QB holding the ball too long. My criticisms of Russell are completely valid. When was the last time you have seen him make a 3 step drop quick timing pass to his receivers? Even QB's like Ben Roethlisberger make those passes on a regular basis. People are blasting me, but in reality these are concerns most people have had about Russell Wilson in the past, especially when he hasn't played well.

The Lions fyi are only 12th in pass attempts this year, and megatron has been injured a good portion of the year. Despite being the center of the defenses attention he is on pace for 1600 yards and 9 tds

My argument, essentially is that unless Wilson is capable of putting up performances like Rodgers, Brady, etc that it should be looked at long and hard before we sign him to a mega million dollar contract.
 

IndyHawk

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Anthony!":3u2yb7pk said:
IndyHawk":3u2yb7pk said:
scutterhawk":3u2yb7pk said:
Spin Doctor":3u2yb7pk said:
Just look at Manning, it's no accident that he has had a top 10 pass blocking line almost every year he has been in the league, even with his all-pro starting left tackle out in 2013
Yeah, let's do look at Manning--------Super Bowl 48 :roll:
As someone that has the Colts as ther 2nd favorite team since I've lived here,I watched Peyton and Luck from the start..The thing is you have to realize these QBs are tall big guys with arms..I mean they can see over the Off linemen and throw bullets if pressured in a second..They do not need all pro OL to flourish..The QBs have made them look better with the quick timing passes that keep the defense(s) from attacking like they would say Wilson..I don't know if Russ can stay in the pocket if he isn't able to see over whats coming like PM or Luck can...The lack of quick pass- slant timing plays
also hurts him..Lots of questionable stuff to be answered before they shower him with 30% of the cap...

:pukeface:
Whatever dude..I'm not going to glam up something to pacify you..
 

AROS

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Ugh. I hate even accidentally reading this thread title every time I log on. :pukeface:
 

brettb3

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IndyHawk":14axvfqi said:
scutterhawk":14axvfqi said:
Spin Doctor":14axvfqi said:
Just look at Manning, it's no accident that he has had a top 10 pass blocking line almost every year he has been in the league, even with his all-pro starting left tackle out in 2013
Yeah, let's do look at Manning--------Super Bowl 48 :roll:
As someone that has the Colts as ther 2nd favorite team since I've lived here,I watched Peyton and Luck from the start..The thing is you have to realize these QBs are tall big guys with arms..I mean they can see over the Off linemen and throw bullets if pressured in a second..They do not need all pro OL to flourish..The QBs have made them look better with the quick timing passes that keep the defense(s) from attacking like they would say Wilson..I don't know if Russ can stay in the pocket if he isn't able to see over whats coming like PM or Luck can...The lack of quick pass- slant timing plays
also hurts him..Lots of questionable stuff to be answered before they shower him with 30% of the cap...
Wilson has never had an all pro OL. How does that explain all the times he has flourished over his career?
 

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