ADB gets real (KJ podcast)

[pittpnthrs]

IMO, the whole idea of the Seahawks' culture and where is manifested from during their Superbowl runs originally came from Marshawn. The offense and team ran through him. I'm not convinced the Seahawks would have been the team that everyone learned about on a national stage without him. I'm not even sure the LOB would have been as dominant without him on the roster.

The one thing that bothers me is that it feels like the Superbowl loss vs the Patriots and how it occurred somehow overshadows the dominant victory they had the year prior against the Broncos. That's the impression I get from some of the players and coaches.

I don't know any of the players personally, it's just an observation. Because the Superbowl loss gets talked about way more than the Superbowl win. Which is quite sad.

This is a great point. Marshawn was the bell cow for years and his play started to regress after the SB years too so he couldnt be counted on like he was then with injuries and so forth.

 

[pittpnthrs]

There's a reason why that in almost every one of his podcast interviews with a former player G tries to get someone to just openly and directly name THE person that everyone is referring to when the topic of culture shift / collapse is brought up.

And credit to them that to a man, they won't just say 'it was Russ'. But it's beyond obvious in their omissions, their praise for their coach, the way they try to tactfully side step placing blame directly. One, because that's just how strong the culture was between the guys outside of Russ. They knew what they built. They knew how special it was and hiw strong. They don't NEED to say anything directly because it's blatantly obvious. They've maintained their bond and the code to this day. And two, they're all just class acts. They have set the record straight without gloating.

Whatever Pete told them when he decided to protect 3, for all the division it caused, they all respected it. They all understood why, even if they didn't agree with him, and they all uphold the word they gave, to this day.

What did Pete tell them? Not one of them ever received an answer for the play call even to this day. Are players blaming Wilson for the call? He didnt call the play. All this "Pete wanted Russ to be the hero" garbage is the biggest fabricated conspiracy i've ever heard. It was just a crap play call from a coaching staff that has a history of getting cute when its not needed and it had the worst possible outcome. Even Baldwin tried to make sense of it from an analytical standpoint and even that doesnt hold water. That play was the cause of the downfall, not just one player.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Of course you don't think it's Wilson. At this point, it looks to me like Wilson could curb-stomp you, completely unprovoked, and you'd find a way to blame Pete Carroll. Saint Russell the Blameless can do no wrong.

As @keasley45 points out in detail in his last comment before this one, the players who were there, even the ones who had semi-public beef with Carroll later, have come back to Carroll and made it clear that their problem with Carroll was that he was protecting Wilson from accountability for his failings. In Sherman's interview with Carroll from a few weeks ago, you can see how much he not only likes Carroll, but also deeply respects him as a head coach.

Lol. So past players have forgiven Pete over time. Isnt that a natural human trait? Ok so the head coach didnt yell at his QB like he did other players. So what. That wasnt the cause of the demise.

 

[hox]

It's obvious Russ' fragile ego needed to be protected. Pete thought that coddling him was the best way to handle this type of player. Sherm's "you' effin suck" was a no-no. Tell the hard truth Mondays didn't apply to Russ and players resented Pete for that.

Pete's approach must have worked to some extent because Russ had his best years under Pete. He's not doing so hot now, with a hard-nosed coach who isn't afraid to call him out, is he?

"We putz a wrist band on it!" lol

 

[pittpnthrs]

Very nice and very human emotion interview. Doug seem to gravitate more to people who helps him in a personal level rather than professional level. A lot of what he was saying was emotions but a bit bias. He also have a bit of an ego which im sure he used that to fuel his amazing career.

The whole Chargers game was extremely hot. LOB could not defend the short pass and they pretty much killed them with a thousand cuts and at the redzone Antonio Gates was unstoppable. I look back and there was no three in a row 3in outs. There was one in 2nd quarter and then 3rd quarter. Charges had the ball for 40+minutes. First half they had field goal, td, field goal, & TD.



KJ had an interesting point in the 6:06 mark. He pretty much said, as soon as they won the superbowl teammates started nitpicking about stuff, not having enough attention, who had the most attention, how much is who is getting paid...they lost focus in actually having fun and winning. That's what i think killed the culture is that they played as a team but when they won, they played for themselves after that. This isn't just Russ, this was pretty much every player.

Perfectly stated. Once the goal was reached, things changed. Egos got in the way. Even Baldwin admitted as much. The culture changed. Kam is a national hero on this board but he even held out for more. All the blame being thrown at the best QB the franchise ever had is asinine. It was so much more than Russ.

 

[keasley45]

It sounds like what your saying is that coach Carroll should have let Russ cook in that game instead of 24 running plays.

And I'm in wholehearted agreement.

Well that's not the gameplan that was on the dinner table that day.

I'm saying the offense would have been infinitely more formidable and not stuck in this binary ' it's all run' , or 'it's Russ cooking' rut if we coukd have ever just run an offense where you could legitimately scheme in the passing game.

We never had a passing scheme or strategy that was discernable in any way. It was 80 % Russ running Russ plays. If it wasn't PA or a handful of the other plays he was good at, it was a crapshoot.

If you wanna see exhibit no.1 of that , rewatch the Broncos v Commanders game from Sunday. Same deal. Russ I'm PA and just making stuff up... ok. The rest of the time? Not so much.

 

[Appyhawk]

Finally got my ISP problem solved and subscribed to KJ's podcast. What a great collection of stuff, and looking at it in overall mode really clarifies a lot of things about internal goings on.

 

[keasley45]

When one of them comes out and flat says its Wilson that screwed everything up, i'll buy in. Nobody has said that. Not being held accountable could mean Pete too as none of the players have ever gotten a straight answer for the play call even when it was clear Pete and Bevell were lost and in a state of panic when Belechick didnt call a timeout. And Baldwin complaining he didnt get enough passes and he was open all the time is nothing different from any other WR in the NFL. Every last one of them are convinced they are open every play. In the Super Bowl, Matthews had a monster game and Baldwin was being covered by Revis. They went heavy towards the better matchup like they should have so Doug can quit crying about that already.

Another aspect of the culture being lost is that the defense regressed and couldnt be counted on to shut other teams down. Whats the alternative? Look at the offensive side of the ball and rely on them. I'm sure the defense wasnt thrilled since they were relied upon to shut down their opponents for 2 to 3 years prior to that. Heck, they even complained when they were expected to do that. As for Wilson, he was the best player on the field from 2015 going forward so why wouldnt you lean on him? Good lord, there was a season he accounted for every single TD but one. Read that again because thats insane. And i'm not sure why everybody needs to point out his lack of success in Denver now when he's not the same player he was 4 years ago. He's done now. If he was in his prime and failing then its a valid point, but thats clearly not the case.

I get it. I really do. Seahawk fans hate Russell Wilson because he supposedly betrayed the team so he's the villain number one. What Seahawk fans dont do is consider that their martyr Pete Carroll who walks on water could be the problem also. Lets face it, he dismantled a near dynasty team quicker than he built it. The problems and issues that have plagued him forever are still plaguing him today. He isnt the perfect messiah fans see him to be.

At this point, its just refusing to acknowledge the obvious. I get it. He's a polarizing dude.

Pete isn't without blame, but the 'witnesses' that have come forward have all stated their belief in Pete and stand by him.

None of have stood by he who will not be named.

When 95 of the 100 puzzle pieces are in place, the picture is clear. One can focus on the 5 holes in the image if that's what they want to do. Doesn't change the picture though.

When you acknowledge the truth that has come out, it makes sense of literally everything that went down in the years that followed and what's still unfolding in Denver.

The conversations that went around and around on this board surrounding Wilson for years are happening in Denver now. There are folks who are even wondering whether Payton is as good as he was billed to be. Why,? Because it's Russ. And look at his stats... Can't be him.

The coach sucks, the offensive line sucks, the plays suck, the defense sucks. All easier for the casual fan to blame. Those are the things being debated on the Broncos forum by some. All because it's just inconceivable to think that the common denominator and real rootbof the problem there and here is one #3.

 

[Seahawks Guy]

What did Pete tell them? Not one of them ever received an answer for the play call even to this day. Are players blaming Wilson for the call? He didnt call the play. All this "Pete wanted Russ to be the hero" garbage is the biggest fabricated conspiracy i've ever heard. It was just a crap play call from a coaching staff that has a history of getting cute when its not needed and it had the worst possible outcome. Even Baldwin tried to make sense of it from an analytical standpoint and even that doesnt hold water. That play was the cause of the downfall, not just one player.

I only think it's a bad call in hindsight. From what I remember, New England had success stopping Marshawn on short yardage situations. Russ was in his third year and had been very clutch with game winning TD throws up to that point.

The main issue on that play wasn't the call itself, but rather the fact that the throw was not placed perfect (not horrible, but not exactly where you want it), coupled with a couple of New England's defenders diagnosing the play after the snap and making a great play. New England capitalized on Seattles mediocre execution of that play with superb execution, and that's why it was intercepted.

 

[FlyingGunHawk]

As fans I think it's hard sometimes to give credit where it's due to the other team: The Patriots DB make an incredible play in a pivotal moment. And the rest is history.

 

[Year of The Hawk]

I only think it's a bad call in hindsight. From what I remember, New England had success stopping Marshawn on short yardage situations. Russ was in his third year and had been very clutch with game winning TD throws up to that point.

The main issue on that play wasn't the call itself, but rather the fact that the throw was not placed perfect (not horrible, but not exactly where you want it), coupled with a couple of New England's defenders diagnosing the play after the snap and making a great play. New England capitalized on Seattles mediocre execution of that play with superb execution, and that's why it was intercepted.

This x 1000

 

[AROS]

I just wonder had Lockette made the catch (i.e. Russ thrown the perfect ball in that scenerio) how the course of history - and perception - would have changed completely regarding how these former players feel about Russell Wilson.

 

[hedgehawk]

I only think it's a bad call in hindsight. From what I remember, New England had success stopping Marshawn on short yardage situations. Russ was in his third year and had been very clutch with game winning TD throws up to that point.

The main issue on that play wasn't the call itself, but rather the fact that the throw was not placed perfect (not horrible, but not exactly where you want it), coupled with a couple of New England's defenders diagnosing the play after the snap and making a great play. New England capitalized on Seattles mediocre execution of that play with superb execution, and that's why it was intercepted.

I don’t think calling a pass with 2 more downs to go and a timeout remaining was the wrong move. Throwing into the middle of the field to your 4th/5th receiver was. Doug said he wasn’t even in the route concept. You would think if they’re gonna pass in that situation, it would be a safe pass to Baldwin and give him a chance or we got 2 downs with beast to win. Truly amazing all around. That DB made an amazing read and play.

 

[hedgehawk]

I just wonder had Lockette made the catch (i.e. Russ thrown the perfect ball in that scenerio) how the course of history - and perception - would have changed completely regarding how these former players feel about Russell Wilson.

It’s fascinating to think about. That play changed everything.

 

[FlyingGunHawk]

I just wonder had Lockette made the catch (i.e. Russ thrown the perfect ball in that scenerio) how the course of history - and perception - would have changed completely regarding how these former players feel about Russell Wilson.

Hmmm..

I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say that the Patrtiots winning that game slingshotted them into their 2nd string of Lombardi's and all those Super Bowl appearances.

I'm not sure what would have happened to Brady if he lost his 3rd straight Super Bowl. He's an all-time great, so maybe they still would have been competitive and won a lot of games regardless. It would not surprise me if they still competed for more Lombardi's even if they lost.

If Seattle won the game, I'd take a guess that Wilson would still be here in Seatle, and the Seahawks probably would at the very least appeared in a few more NFC champ games and maybe 1 more super bowl. But Maybe not.

I don't think all-time great defenses are built to last. They are built to win.

But who the hell knows? The NFL is like a small boat in bad weather.

Pete and John would be labeled all-time greats in this timeline. And so would that team. The team already kind of is. But that INT left a ton to be desired.

 

[TwilightError]

It’s fascinating to think about. That play changed everything.

It sure did. Even us fans still deal with the trauma right here.

 

[hedgehawk]

It left a mark. The players became resentful, mad, angry. Then there was Russ doing his Russ thing. More resentment and anger from the team. Pete didn’t react correctly in hindsight. We won a lot the next year, but it wasn’t a team and we had no chance for the owl. We should have been going for 3 in a row. Dynasty! We’re talking best ever. Sad in many ways.

 

[MORGULON]

Say you have a little brother that gets away with bloody murder. Your parents let him slide.

Are you mad at your little brother, or the parents?

Both but the parents mostly.

 

[rcaido]

Also at that time Doug was still "pedestrian" 3tds, 800yards, 60receptions ...It wasn't until the second half of the following year when he and Wilson broke out and had the best second half season in NFL history.

Lynch had 100yrd rushing and Mathews had 100yrd receiving. The offense did their part had 10 points lead in the the 4th.

The last play was such a gut punch. Should they have run...probably...would Lynch have scored probably. It is what it is, that's life.

I wonder how things would have turned out if seahawks converted the last play. What if Lynch got the ball and was not able to convert all three tries. Would it be the same blow back, would the team be kumbaya and stay together? I doubt it, kj already said after they won the first championship they started playing for themself.

 

[keasley45]

Perfectly stated. Once the goal was reached, things changed. Egos got in the way. Even Baldwin admitted as much. The culture changed. Kam is a national hero on this board but he even held out for more. All the blame being thrown at the best QB the franchise ever had is asinine. It was so much more than Russ.

You are talking about two different things. Complacency is not what killed this team. Complacency or degrees of it can be expected once you achieve a goal. For the conversation everyday NOT to be about winning a championship and proving to the world you are the best is understandable after you've won one.

Doug pretty plainly stated that even in 2018, he was motivated to continue winning more than anything. The pieces that left before him didn't leave and then just collect a huge paycheck. They went where they could win and where the culture was geared toward winning. They left hear, as Doug said, because it had been lost.

I get it's hard to swallow, but the team broke because of how Pete handled Russ. I dint get the need to defend the dude. If you think he was so on the up, then how do you explain Beast Mode on the one hand wanting to reach out, but then saying 'f that' when he was told to go through Russs handler? Staying on him - how do you explain the resentment he felt when he admitted not wanting tonsee Russ succeed in Seattle? Let me guess, it's all about the SB ?

The clamoring to grab onto any shred of alternate narrative that saves you from the truth that Russ was a flawed player who was wrongly given a pass... even though there has never been a player who denied it... is amazing.

The idea that it was jealousy or laziness on the part of those speaking out now? I get it if Russ has shown to be a solid, stand up guy who can play the position really well, but each of those characteristics that should be vindication for him in hindsight and the years that followed the break up of the dynasty, actually substantiated everything being said.

He isn't a stand up guy. Making former teammates talk to your secretary?? Skimming cash from a charity? Lying about being blindsided by the trade? Throwing former teammates under the bus? Lobbying to get your coach and GM fired??

In terms of his play - other than stats, or claiming tape showing Russ blatantly missing plays over and over again that killed drives is cherry picking and just hate, you can't show solid evidence that the guy can read defenses at a level that remotely parallels his experience. He puts years of tape out there as evidence that his LOB teammates were absolutkey justified in being upset at mistakes that have now run 10+ years not bring fixed... and Pete never openly criticized him for it.

It's all exactly as has been stated. There's no mystery. Charades only ever last but so long.

For Russ, good for him that it got him his huge payday. But he will for certain never sniff the HOF. Anybody who knows football can look at who and what he is as a player and see, like his teammates did, that his holes are too many. And now, when gifted with the coach he always wanted and who was certain to be able to help him over the handcuff that was Nat Hackett (and before that, Pete), he put the nails in his own coffin and removed all doubt.

Except that he and his fans will claim that Pete ruined him with all the hits he forced him to take.

Can't wait until the next teammate from that period comes on KJs podcast. Hoping one day Earl gets his sh!+ together and can offer his perspective.