3-4 D lineman that the Hawks need

[irfuben32]

I see a lot discussion about people wanting the Seahawks to draft D lineman who looked to me to be traditional 4-3 DE's or 3-Tech's.

I have a rudimentary understanding of the 3-4 but it seems we need a true nose tackle (Siaki Ika) and a couple of 300+ lb guys for the DE's. This is the run-stopping beef that allows the OLB's to be small and fast enough to cover as well as rush the passer.

There are a ton of players I love in this draft like Calijah Kancey or Lukas Van Ness that just don't seem to fit the traditional 3-4. They would be useful on third downs to rush from the inside but do we want to draft a situational pass rusher in the first round?

Like I said I don't have a ton of knowledge on this. I am just throwing it out there for discussion and hopefully I can learn some things.

 

[bsuhawk]

If used properly, I don't see Calijah Kancey as a liability against the run. His ability to penetrate and split double teams will be as disruptive against the run as the pass. However, if you are going to put him head up on a tackle in 4 tech and expect him to play 2-gap then that would be a problem and a waste of his talent.

 

[irfuben32]

If used properly, I don't see Calijah Kancey as a liability against the run. His ability to penetrate and split double teams will be as disruptive against the run as the pass. However, if you are going to put him head up on a tackle in 4 tech and expect him to play 2-gap then that would be a problem and a waste of his talent.

Right, my very basic understand of the 3-4 is that all of the D-lineman should be two gapping. Drafting Kancey to me would signal a return to a 4-3. Otherwise he is just Clint McDonald

 

[nanomoz]

That's one good thing, actually. 5-tech types whose best skill is containment can usually be had for cheaper in FA, and later in the draft.

 

[bsuhawk]

Right, my very basic understand of the 3-4 is that all of the D-lineman should be two gapping. Drafting Kancey to me would signal a return to a 4-3. Otherwise he is just Clint McDonald

That's true for a traditional 3-4, but the Hawks switch things up by using hybrid fronts where one or both of the DE slide inside to 3 tech. If both DE move to 3 tech then that's generally referred to as a bear front.

FYI, while this may sound like I know what I'm talking about I freely admit that I am NOT an expert at defensive alignments. So if this is wrong please correct me.

 

[Hawkspeed]

I am hoping that we draft two quality defensive linemen early, like Jalen Carter and Siaki Ika! This draft is also rich in quality EDGE players that are projected to go early. You can't buy or "coach up" size or athletic ability. Adetomiwa Adebawore is a player that has "lit up the combine".

We also now need a Center and there are a couple of good choices available in the draft. But, maybe picking up an experienced free agent Center would be a good choice. Same to be said for Linebacker...there are some good draft choices, but an experienced middle Linebacker could bring stability...maybe draft a Safety too?

Bobby come back...

 

[HawkinNY]

Think we should run a 6-5 defense. 4 interior lineman with two edge rushers. Then man coverage on all offensive players with one safety deep.

 

[Frozenropers]

I’ll take Mazi Smith, NT (Michigan) and Keeanu Benton, DT/DE (Wisconsin) for beef in the middle. Then a disruptor like Keion White or Calijah Kancey for the interior. In no particular order.

 

[gmor]

Think we should run a 6-5 defense. 4 interior lineman with two edge rushers. Then man coverage on all offensive players with one safety deep.

This might be what the NFL evolves to.

 

[bsuhawk]

I’ll take Mazi Smith, NT (Michigan) and Keeanu Benton, DT/DE (Wisconsin) for beef in the middle. Then a disruptor like Keion White or Calijah Kancey for the interior. In no particular order.

I would not be surprised at all if Seattle drafts Mazi Smith or Keeanu Benton. Either would be a great addition.

 

[AgentDib]

The traditional 3-4 defense is three two gapping DL at 4t-0t-4t. That's what Bill Parcells and Dick Le Beau were known for but defense has evolved a long way since then. If we lined up like that even once then it was on a snap I wasn't paying attention to.

Single gap "3-4" fronts are in common usage now. Versatility is a big deal; if a guy can play at 3t/4t/5t/6t then he'll get more opportunities than somebody pigeon-holed into being a pure 3t. Here are the alignments I noticed us using the most.

3t-1t-4t (var: 3t-1t-5t)
Primary alignment in the two games I re-watched last (Saints/Panthers). The nose tackle slides over to 1t on the strong side, with the task of tying up both the center and the strong side guard on a running play, or penetrating the A gap on a passing play. The DEs both slide, with the one on the strong side lining up across from the tackle and the one on the weakside guarding the B gap (traditional 3t).

The main point of that shift is to get a disruptive player into the 3T role identical to the 4-3. That's because the center is occupied with the 1t, the weak-side tackle is occupied by a wide defender (OLB or DE), and so that gives your explosive 3T a one on one matchup against the weak-side guard.

Why would we do this so much without a dominant 3t? Perhaps because we didn't have great 4t candidates. When Mone was off the field we often shifted to 3t-1t-5t to put the replacements in a better situation to win.

2t-3t (var: 3t-3t)
We did this a fair amount with mixed success. The 2t here needs to play more of the traditional two gapping DT role because his job is cover both the weakside A and B gaps. Our "playmaking" LB lines up behind him for support while the other ILB covers the strongside A gap and the 3t penetrates the strongside B gap. The Panthers were successful seemingly all day against this formation and so it got a lot of negativity, but we were trying to generate some pass rush and that wouldn't have better with our personnel and an extra DL on the field. The Saints ran well to the outside against this alignment because our OLBs lost contain.

3t-0t-3t
This was our main run stopping alignment last year. Mone or Woods covering both A gaps, Harris/QJeff/Ford trying get up field to blow up the play in each B gap, OLBs having contain on the C gaps. We got burned occasionally to the outside when the OLBs either lost edge contain, or they had a quick outlet/screen pass over their heads. We didn't just get run over inside very often in this formation but we did give up a few big inside runs on what looked like mental gaffes.

So in short, we do need single gap 1/3/5 techs, in addition to 0/2/4 two gapping techs. We will move alignments around in order to try to get our best DL on the field in their best positions. I didn't see anything last year to support the idea that we were using players in unfavorable alignments for their skillsets.

 

[bsuhawk]

The traditional 3-4 defense is three two gapping DL at 4t-0t-4t. That's what Bill Parcells and Dick Le Beau were known for but defense has evolved a long way since then. If we lined up like that even once then it was on a snap I wasn't paying attention to.

Single gap "3-4" fronts are in common usage now. Versatility is a big deal; if a guy can play at 3t/4t/5t/6t then he'll get more opportunities than somebody pigeon-holed into being a pure 3t. Here are the alignments I noticed us using the most.

3t-1t-4t (var: 3t-1t-5t)
Primary alignment in the two games I re-watched last (Saints/Panthers). The nose tackle slides over to 1t on the strong side, with the task of tying up both the center and the strong side guard on a running play, or penetrating the A gap on a passing play. The DEs both slide, with the one on the strong side lining up across from the tackle and the one on the weakside guarding the B gap (traditional 3t).

The main point of that shift is to get a disruptive player into the 3T role identical to the 4-3. That's because the center is occupied with the 1t, the weak-side tackle is occupied by a wide defender (OLB or DE), and so that gives your explosive 3T a one on one matchup against the weak-side guard.

Why would we do this so much without a dominant 3t? Perhaps because we didn't have great 4t candidates. When Mone was off the field we often shifted to 3t-1t-5t to put the replacements in a better situation to win.

2t-3t (var: 3t-3t)
We did this a fair amount with mixed success. The 2t here needs to play more of the traditional two gapping DT role because his job is cover both the weakside A and B gaps. Our "playmaking" LB lines up behind him for support while the other ILB covers the strongside A gap and the 3t penetrates the strongside B gap. The Panthers were successful seemingly all day against this formation and so it got a lot of negativity, but we were trying to generate some pass rush and that wouldn't have better with our personnel and an extra DL on the field. The Saints ran well to the outside against this alignment because our OLBs lost contain.

3t-0t-3t
This was our main run stopping alignment last year. Mone or Woods covering both A gaps, Harris/QJeff/Ford trying get up field to blow up the play in each B gap, OLBs having contain on the C gaps. We got burned occasionally to the outside when the OLBs either lost edge contain, or they had a quick outlet/screen pass over their heads. We didn't just get run over inside very often in this formation but we did give up a few big inside runs on what looked like mental gaffes.

So in short, we do need single gap 1/3/5 techs, in addition to 0/2/4 two gapping techs. We will move alignments around in order to try to get our best DL on the field in their best positions. I didn't see anything last year to support the idea that we were using players in unfavorable alignments for their skillsets.

Thanks for the detailed description. Very informative. So, based on your description, Kancey would be a 3T and possibly a 5T, correct?

 

[AgentDib]

Those would be his ideal alignments if you are projecting solely off Kancey's fast split. The hope would be that he can use his quickness to be disruptive in the B (3 tech) or C (5 tech) gaps and to get into the back field.

At 3-tech he'll be (hopefully) getting a one on one matchup versus an opposing guard, so I find it useful to compare the 3t prospect measurables to those of the guards. Kancey is much quicker than the average iOL, as evidenced by a very good split. Not quite Aaron Donald otherworldly, but better than all but a couple of guards.



The arm length with Kancey is a concern, however. He will have shorter arms than just about guard he lines up against, and in some cases much shorter. That's a big disadvantage because opposing players can compensate for the difference in quickness by having much longer reach.



In my view what's really going to matter is the bench at Kancey's pro day as he opted out of the combine bench. Aaron Donald is the perfect 3 tech because he combines exceptional quickness with exceptional strength. He's not just quicker than every guard he is going up against but likely much stronger too.



I'd like to see Kancey end up on the right side of this distribution with at least 28 reps at his pro day. More would be even better, as the bench press favors those with short arms.

 

[bsuhawk]

Those would be his ideal alignments if you are projecting solely off Kancey's fast split. The hope would be that he can use his quickness to be disruptive in the B (3 tech) or C (5 tech) gaps and to get into the back field.

At 3-tech he'll be (hopefully) getting a one on one matchup versus an opposing guard, so I find it useful to compare the 3t prospect measurables to those of the guards. Kancey is much quicker than the average iOL, as evidenced by a very good split. Not quite Aaron Donald otherworldly, but better than all but a couple of guards.

View attachment 57938

The arm length with Kancey is a concern, however. He will have shorter arms than just about guard he lines up against, and in some cases much shorter. That's a big disadvantage because opposing players can compensate for the difference in quickness by having much longer reach.

View attachment 57939

In my view what's really going to matter is the bench at Kancey's pro day as he opted out of the combine bench. Aaron Donald is the perfect 3 tech because he combines exceptional quickness with exceptional strength. He's not just quicker than every guard he is going up against but likely much stronger too.

View attachment 57940

I'd like to see Kancey end up on the right side of this distribution with at least 28 reps at his pro day. More would be even better, as the bench press favors those with short arms.

I thought it was odd that Kancey didn't lift at the combine. I've seen reports that he can bench 425 lbs so I would assume he will do well.

 

[ivotuk]

Might be he (Kalijah) is changing his body from speedster, to hercules. I'd be interested in his weight at his Pro Day, and how much of that muscle is in the upper or lower half.