Why Russell Wilson is washed?

bileever

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Russell Wilson, in his best years, struggled to run an offense competently. Does anyone have the 3-and-out statistics from when he was in Seattle? I know that in 2020, we were 27th in third down conversions. Between 2016 and 2021, our high water mark was 15th. Not exactly elite. So when people talk about a return to form, it's important to remember what that was. Yes, there were lots of yards and even TDs, but there was a lot of struggle as well.
 

Spin Doctor

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Wilson was one of the strangest QB's to find success that I've ever seen in the NFL. He didn't know how to throw with anticipation, his footwork was sometimes so bad, that it would make the incarnation of Hasselbeck known as Spazzelbeck blush. Wilson's short accuracy was lacking to say the least.

What was also clear is his pre-snap part of his game was lacking. He didn't quite know how to read defenses from the LOS and he completely avoided the middle of the field like a plague.

If I told you a QB like this existed in the NFL, you'd probably assume the said QB was a backup or about to be out of the league. Instead, said QB went on to have a very successful career.

Wilson's strengths were so unique and and developed that he was able to essentially skip all of the procedural bits of playing QB. Good footwork? Nah, let me just chuck the ball 80 yards down field across my body while falling down. Reading defenses pre-snap? Nah, these fools can't catch me when I scramble. Pocket presence? Who needs a pocket? i'll just bail out of the pocket.

Wilson had a unique of skills that allowed him to play the QB position his way. Wilson was playing a different game than every other QB in the NFL. Not even guys like Mahomes, and Jackson could get away with the kind of BS that Wilson could play. Wilson had the same kind of elusivity that Barry Sanders had in the backfield when pass rushers were chasing him. Wilson could pull the biggest BS plays out of thin air.

That guy doesn't exist anymore. Wilson can no longer huck the ball 80 yards from his back foot while falling down. He can no longer avoid pass rushers like he used to. Wilson was somehow deluded into thinking that he needed to gain weight to stay healthy and he somehow convinced himself that he was a pocket QB. The problems are, he couldn't do any of that stuff reliably. Wilson as a pocket QB is a third tier starter and we saw it last season.

Wilson needs to completely change his game or he's going to fall into irrelevancy. Wilson is no longer the mad scrambler. His arm isn't what it used to be and his mobility is now average. He's never going to be the same guy he was as a Seahawk. That part of his career is over.
 

keasley45

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Watch the highlights of the week 18 Chargers Broncos game. That’s Russ’ ceiling.

All Payton is doing for Russ is instilling the plan Jerry Rosberg did.
And I Don't think Peyton wants to hamstring himself to a RW playbook. It's like hiring a Beethoven to write 'chopsticks'. All he has to do to find that ceiling is look at the 2016 to 2021 Hawks.

Peyton is too good a playcaller to let a simple coverage scheme stall his offense.
 
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toffee

toffee

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I suspect Wilson may test poorly on S2 test: Wilson either could not or would not see the whole field, process the data and formula a decision, all in quick enough time. He knew it, so to make it work, he only focus on the hero or glory pass targets. With that, instead of processing 4-5 data points, he only process 2-3 data points. That explained why WRs seemingly right in front of him were ignored.

I also suspect that Wilson has average or even below average Football IQ, which he compensate with his athleticism, ie buy more time by running in circles.

I said all of the above without any proof or evidence, it was just my speculation which was based on:
  1. It took Wilson more time in the huddle, his whole career. (Football IQ)
  2. It took Wilson more time before making a pass, just ask his OL. (S2)
  3. Wilson consistently ignored 35% of the field, and focus on just the other 65%. (Football IQ and S2)
Can Sean change the spots on this old leopard Wilson? Maybe he could, but I won't bet on it. Wilson's problems, if my speculations were true, could be in four areas, Football IQ, visual processing or cognitive processing, diminishing athleticism, and hero ball. Can Sean change any of these four?
 
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rcaido

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Russell Wilson, in his best years, struggled to run an offense competently. Does anyone have the 3-and-out statistics from when he was in Seattle? I know that in 2020, we were 27th in third down conversions. Between 2016 and 2021, our high water mark was 15th. Not exactly elite. So when people talk about a return to form, it's important to remember what that was. Yes, there were lots of yards and even TDs, but there was a lot of struggle as well.
Why do you want to cherry pick one statistic? Wilson from 2012 - 2020 had a top 12 offense every year except one.
Only two QBs did it better which was Brees & Brady.

Wilson 8 out 9 seasons

Rapeburger 6 out 9
Erin Rogers 5 out 9
Matt Ryan 4 out 9
Andrew Luck 4 out 8
Daulton 3 out 9
Rivers 3 out 9
 

morgulon1

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Wilson was one of the strangest QB's to find success that I've ever seen in the NFL. He didn't know how to throw with anticipation, his footwork was sometimes so bad, that it would make the incarnation of Hasselbeck known as Spazzelbeck blush. Wilson's short accuracy was lacking to say the least.

What was also clear is his pre-snap part of his game was lacking. He didn't quite know how to read defenses from the LOS and he completely avoided the middle of the field like a plague.

If I told you a QB like this existed in the NFL, you'd probably assume the said QB was a backup or about to be out of the league. Instead, said QB went on to have a very successful career.

Wilson's strengths were so unique and and developed that he was able to essentially skip all of the procedural bits of playing QB. Good footwork? Nah, let me just chuck the ball 80 yards down field across my body while falling down. Reading defenses pre-snap? Nah, these fools can't catch me when I scramble. Pocket presence? Who needs a pocket? i'll just bail out of the pocket.

Wilson had a unique of skills that allowed him to play the QB position his way. Wilson was playing a different game than every other QB in the NFL. Not even guys like Mahomes, and Jackson could get away with the kind of BS that Wilson could play. Wilson had the same kind of elusivity that Barry Sanders had in the backfield when pass rushers were chasing him. Wilson could pull the biggest BS plays out of thin air.

That guy doesn't exist anymore. Wilson can no longer huck the ball 80 yards from his back foot while falling down. He can no longer avoid pass rushers like he used to. Wilson was somehow deluded into thinking that he needed to gain weight to stay healthy and he somehow convinced himself that he was a pocket QB. The problems are, he couldn't do any of that stuff reliably. Wilson as a pocket QB is a third tier starter and we saw it last season.

Wilson needs to completely change his game or he's going to fall into irrelevancy. Wilson is no longer the mad scrambler. His arm isn't what it used to be and his mobility is now average. He's never going to be the same guy he was as a Seahawk. That part of his career is over.
I agree 💯 .

I just want to add that his backyard hero ball only works with talented cerebral WR like Doug Baldwin , Kearse and Tyler Lockett scrambling and adjusting routes
To give Mr limited a target. Those 3 were severely underrated. He doesn't have them anymore as well.
 

bileever

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Why do you want to cherry pick one statistic? Wilson from 2012 - 2020 had a top 12 offense every year except one.
Only two QBs did it better which was Brees & Brady.

Wilson 8 out 9 seasons

Rapeburger 6 out 9
Erin Rogers 5 out 9
Matt Ryan 4 out 9
Andrew Luck 4 out 8
Daulton 3 out 9
Rivers 3 out 9
You have a point--I was thinking the same thing as I wrote it. But I wasn't cherry-picking so much as making a minor point, that what we witnessed during those years was an offense, despite all its success, that could be frustrating with an inability to move the ball consistently. Because I didn't have the 3-and-out stats, I referred to the third down conversion data. For all the success that Wilson had in 2015 to 2021 in the regular season, that success didn't translate to success in the post-season, and that had a lot to do with running an offense on schedule. That's what I was talking about. But yes, you have a point, and that disconnect between Wilson's stats and the offense's lack of success in the post-season has been the subject of debate here for a while.
 
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Spin Doctor

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I agree 💯 .

I just want to add that his backyard hero ball only works with talented cerebral WR like Doug Baldwin , Kearse and Tyler Lockett scrambling and adjusting routes
To give Mr limited a target. Those 3 were severely underrated. He doesn't have them anymore as well.
It's also worth noting that the scramble practice was a HUGE part of the Seahawks practice. I've heard sometimes it was 50 percent of the Seahawks offensive practice. Most teams don't spend as much time on the scramble drill as we did.
 

Torc

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It's also worth noting that the scramble practice was a HUGE part of the Seahawks practice. I've heard sometimes it was 50 percent of the Seahawks offensive practice. Most teams don't spend as much time on the scramble drill as we did.
A good coaching staff does their best to amplify a player's strengths and minimize their weaknesses. They're putting the QB in a position to win. Apparently the scramble drill is how Pete thought Russ could win.

I'm really curious to see if Sean Peyton thinks that's how Russ can win too.
 

Spin Doctor

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A good coaching staff does their best to amplify a player's strengths and minimize their weaknesses. They're putting the QB in a position to win. Apparently the scramble drill is how Pete thought Russ could win.

I'm really curious to see if Sean Peyton thinks that's how Russ can win too.
I don't think that is the path forward for Wilson any longer. I think Peyton's answer is going to be a bit different. Wilson no longer has those chops anymore. Athletically he's a shell of his former self. Even if he lost his extra weight, I highly doubt he's going to be anywhere the same guy athletically. Wilson's had an uncanny ability to start and stop on a dime and accelerate up to full speed almost instantly. It really did remind me of a guy like Barry Sanders running the ball. The way he could twist and contort his body, bounce of people like a rubber band. I doubt at his age that is going to happen.

I think Peyton is going to do what he said he is going to do. A passing game predicated on play action passing. His goal is going to minimise Wilson's responsibilities I think. I suspect he's going to be running an offense that is very similar to Schottenheimer's back in 2018/2019.
 

rcaido

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You have a point--I was thinking the same thing as I wrote it. But I wasn't cherry-picking so much as making a minor point, that what we witnessed during those years was an offense, despite all its success, that could be frustrating with an inability to move the ball consistently. Because I didn't have the 3-and-out stats, I referred to the third down conversion data. For all the success that Wilson had in 2015 to 2021 in the regular season, that success didn't translate to success in the post-season, and that had a lot to do with running an offense on schedule. That's what I was talking about. But yes, you have a point, and that disconnect between Wilson's stats and the offense's lack of success in the post-season has been the subject of debate here for a while.

Before that dreadful Rams game in 2020, Wilson had the highest QB Rating in playoff history.
 

keasley45

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You have a point--I was thinking the same thing as I wrote it. But I wasn't cherry-picking so much as making a minor point, that what we witnessed during those years was an offense, despite all its success, that could be frustrating with an inability to move the ball consistently. Because I didn't have the 3-and-out stats, I referred to the third down conversion data. For all the success that Wilson had in 2015 to 2021 in the regular season, that success didn't translate to success in the post-season, and that had a lot to do with running an offense on schedule. That's what I was talking about. But yes, you have a point, and that disconnect between Wilson's stats and the offense's lack of success in the post-season has been the subject of debate here for a while.
Here you go.


Not Cherry picking at all. To only look at the ranking of the offense over his tenure is to turn a blind eye to the fact that he was perpetually mediocre at best (with the exception of a few years - 2 I think, when he ran more ) when moving the chains through the air, and near dead last every year when targeting the middle of the field.

Russ is a paradox. Those who say he was a lead leading passer the entire time he was here aren't wrong.

And... if you were to attempt to identify how much of his success came NOT through executing a perfectly appropriate and successful play and rather abandoning successful plays in favor of buying himself the time HE needed to make a play, I'd wager they are disproportionately low.

That's important, because it points to a player who requires time and unique circumstances to play the position. Time not typically available behind a reasonable offensive line and circumstances that rely on him NOT making throws in traffic or in windows not necessarily open when the ball is released.

Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Mahomes... they all slow the game down by virtue of their ability to process quickly.

Russ slowed the game down by virtue not of his quick football mind, but by buying almost perennially league leading time between the snap and ball being released. He scrambled to avoid the throw on time when there was greater risk (and where he oft couldn't see the route or was just slow to release), and instead, relied on defenses eventually breaking coverage after 4 seconds or more to hit a wr that had found an opening. Note - there are few defenses in the league that can cover 3 receivers for more than 4 seconds without someone being open. Russ made a living in that timezone. Where the true elite qbs made hay immediately after the snap on presnap brilliance, Russ worked his magic way off script when cb's and safeties were twisted into knots trying to cover guys like Tyler and ADB.

That is NOT the kind of play SP will tolerate as a baseline.

Other stats that point to his specific requirements to play the position:

Time to throw
Depth of release
Avg depth of target

And the attached file below shows the success curve for Russ's passes on 3rd down during 2021 when folks hailed he still 'had it' and wqs a top passer in the league. Sure, the tds to ints looked great. Td's? Great. Yards and explosives? Awesome. And then there's the issue of his 3rd down production which wqs great ehn throwing bombs downfield ( read tons of yards and highlights) but sucked when just driving the ball to the guy at the sticks to move the chains and 5 to 15 yards.

Thats why only focusing on the big play numbers, completion percentage and yards is cherry picking - not identifying the holes. It's in the full picture of his game that you understand who he is.

A breakdown that covers pretty effectively his play style.... and this was before last year is here. And in hindsight, it's kind.

 

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Scout

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SP kind of went through an evolution as a HC because for along time he was just an OC who happened to be the HC of the Saints. A high powered offense with a very good or good enough defense yielded many winning seasons and wins (Super Bowl).

However at some point SP decided to rebalance the Saints to be more balanced on offense as Drew aged and to allow the defense more cap resources to help win games.

I think SP realizes this which is why they have a good amount of RBs that are at least 220 lbs on their current off season roster. The Broncos are going to run the football because that is what their OL upgrades and RB stockpile indicates. That is partly because of RW limitations but also because SP has drawn heavily influence from Bill Parcells.

SP has worked with many QBs with many different skill sets to reach at least 3k yards but that involves a running game to set up play action. Even if Russ was more mobile and younger self I don't see SP deviating from this path.
 

chris98251

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Wilson would have to put in the work to adapt his skill set, one other thing, he rarely ran plays from scrimmage mostly in the Shot Gun, Payton likes to run from the line of scrimmage a lot more. That may submarine Wilson out of the gate given he can't process or get a deep drop to see the field quick enough to throw on time.
 

RedAlice

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Wilson would have to put in the work to adapt his skill set, one other thing, he rarely ran plays from scrimmage mostly in the Shot Gun, Payton likes to run from the line of scrimmage a lot more. That may submarine Wilson out of the gate given he can't process or get a deep drop to see the field quick enough to throw on time.
This is going to be fun to watch.

What is the height diff w Brees and Wilson?
 

Rainger

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It is obvious that the dysfunctionality in the Seahawks 2016 to 2021 was not the fault of the OC, the OL, the FO, and especially PC as the majority were screaming. All of those units all bore the brunt of ME3 playing the game his way.

The above embedded video's, clearly show that RW was ,as pointed out above, unique in the talents he had but limited in actually playing "NORMAL" (pro ball not sand lot) football.

We still have the posters who still think RW was the Seahawks rather than seeing his deterioration at his way of playing football was what was bringing the team down through those years.

Everyone blamed PC. The only blame he really has is sticking with RW 3 to 5 years too long wasting those good teams.

And all of the in the weeds detail and stats that the RW groupies throw out to try to justify the weaknesses and limitations of MR. Unlimited, are merely smoke and spin to hide the truth.

Yes I was a RW groupie, but the facts are the facts.

PS: for those who have limited abilities to understand nuance please note the word normal is in quotation marks, One of the purposes of a quotation make is to:

Set apart a word to show irony, sarcasm, or skepticism (scare quotes)​

 
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MizzouHawkGal

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It is obvious that the dysfunctionality in the Seahawks 2016 to 2021 was not the fault of the OC, the OL, the FO, and especially PC as the majority were screaming. All of those units all bore the brunt of ME3 playing the game his way.

The above embedded video's, clearly show that RW was ,as pointed out above, unique in the talents he had but limited in actually playing "NORMAL" football.

We still have the posters who still think RW was the Seahawks rather than seeing his deterioration at his way of playing football was what was bringing the team down through those years.

Everyone blamed PC. The only blame he really has is sticking with RW 3 to 5 years too long wasting those good teams.

And all of the in the weeds detail and stats that the RW groupies throw out to try to justify the weaknesses and limitations of MR. Unlimited, are merely smoke and spin to hide the truth.

Yes I was a RW groupie, but the facts are the facts.
What do you consider normal football?
 
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