What wrong with Payton?

[keasley45]

Really?

How is this a knock on Wilson? What do you expect him to say if asked?

So I know there's an element of 'what was he supposed to say ' in that response. But this is psych 101. In corporate settings when 3rd party companies whose business is restructuring or management training do analysis of managers to figure out why leadership is faltering, they use basic responses like this.

If consciously considered, people who are asked will often default to identifying things they like vs don't like... or what manager A does that manager B doesn't do. Subconsciously, the answers often stem more from the like v don't like.

It's psych 101 and pretty consistent.

There are elements like 'trying to be PC' or trying not to saying anything too harsh about a manager an employee doesn't like, but human response is pretty consistent. I've found the above to be true in 10 plus years of doing leadership coaching and culture building.

Remember when players were asked about Geno?

unanimous answer from players -
1. He's a team guy
2. He's one of the guys
3. He's a leader

Unanimous answers from coaches-
1. He's coachable
2. He does what you ask
3. He's in command of the offense.

So you can certainly say it's coincidence, but when those things are the first thing you hear, sometimes it's intentionally underscoring a difference between guy A and guy B based on preference and sometimes it's knee-jerk reaction to just say what's most different.

And we know that the knocks on Russ have stemmed from him not being the 6 things above. Leadership wasn't as much of a knock, but with Russ it was Russ's very unique way. That's 200% not coincidence.

 

[NoGain]

There's always a higher ground to take behaviorably and professionally that can still accomplish the objectives you see fit to pursue. There are certain behavioristic styles that were once deemed to be acceptable, though not so much anymore. There's no reason that Payton couldn't have just as easily accomplished his objectives without being a jerk about it.

That's my only point, really.

 

[DJ_CJ]

Sean Peyton is scum and just keeps reaffirming it. He’s running out of scapegoats. Things went sour with Russ here but he’s still our best signal caller in history. He didn’t deserve this at all. Denver tried to play it as he wouldn’t restructure when come to find out he basically was getting told he would be cut in the offseason but also please defer your injury clause and go out there and keep playing. I get didn’t want to risk getting hit with him not passing a physical and be on the hook for $76 million at once but why not do it earlier? Still going to eat $85 million albeit split over 2 years instead. Peyton is the most overhyped coach and speaks up all that kool aid thinking that he is.

 

[86Hawk]

The Broncos are so screwed. They signed a horrible contract to an aging used to be mobile QB. And when that didn't work they doubled down and got an overrated ahole head coach. I can't wait until Sean Payton falls flat on his face without Russell Wilson. Who will he blame then?

 

[Lagartixa]

On the surface it appears that Sean Payton is the lackey doing the dirty work for the billionaires that don't want to pay the millionaire.

They're getting out having paid him "only" $124M for two years. $62M per year for one year of one of the three worst starting QBs in the league (a hell of an accomplishment when the contract coincided with two years of Justin Fields's career) and one year of a QB in the sixth or seventh octile of starting QBs. To get more specific, I'll be charitable and say he's somewhere in the neighborhood of the 20th-best starting QB in the league, with a few long bombs, no mid-game, and so many checkdowns to running backs that his average "completed air yards per attempt" is 27th in the league among qualifying QBs, allowing him to have a high completion percentage, a low interception rate, and therefore a high passer rating despite still getting sacked at a near-the-top-of-the-league rate and just plain not doing enough to help his team win except in that mid-season stretch when the defense was getting a bunch of turnovers in each game.

It's not "billionaires that don't want to pay the millionaire." It's business people recognizing that the contract extension was unnecessary (it technically starts after this season!), the extension and the trade really hurt the team (and I frickin' love that!), and continuing to keep Wilson at high cap hits (they kept 'em relatively low in the first two seasons, but couldn't take advantage of that cap space because Wilson just isn't a top-tier or even second-tier or third-tier QB, and even with the big cap advantage, Wilson just wasn't good enough for the team to win, and now there's no way to justify that QB at the cap hits that are coming) will hurt the team more. They could have just benched him, but instead went and told him they wanted him to waive the 2025 injury-guaranteed money that vests on St. Patrick's Day. He didn't want to do so, and they really did have to bench him rather than face the risk of having to guarantee another $37M to a quarterback over 35 years old who doesn't get rid of the ball quickly and therefore is always among the quarterbacks most frequently hit in the league, and therefore the risk of digging the hole $37M deeper for another year of a QB who's not worth $20M per year.

If Wilson were even a QB in the 10th-to-15th-best-in-the-league range, the billionaires would have been fine with letting more of the contract play out.

Shannon Sharp's Nightcap channel has a strong opinion on this from a player's perspective.

There is something important for people to see in this. Fans of every team always want their favorite players to give their favorite teams "hometown discounts" and show "loyalty," but the NFL is a business, so there is no loyalty going the other way, so asking players to be "loyal" to their teams and fans is just nonsense.

In this specific case, if Wilson were playing even reasonably well, rather than throwing $#!+loads of high-percentage checkdown throws to running backs to pad his completion percentage and keep his interception rate low (and, of course, not making or hitting the actual primary and secondary reads even in the limited parts of the playbook Payton felt he could even try to use with Wilson), none of this would have happened. It says a lot that Payton would rather roll with Stidham than with Wilson, even though the cap hits from cutting Wilson will be enormous.

 

[BASF]

This is a thread about Sean Payton, and so was my post.
7-9, 7-9, 7-9 record back to back to back. Oh yeah, then after one year another 7-9. Arguably in a weak division.
Not exactly a QB whisperer.

Pete Carroll never had this poor a run, win-loss record-wise in the last decade, so I can't endorse or defend this guy. That's all I'm saying.

The offense during those seasons:
Third in points, second in yards
Ninth in points, first in yards
Eighth in points, second in yards
Second in points, first in yards

So, QB whisperer. I have posted several times regarding Payton's record of getting the best out of veteran QBs and getting the best out of middling QB's on a few occasions while being a QB coach or offensive coordinator when so many have said that it was Brees that made Payton. Payton increased Brees to the hall of famer he became.

All of this does not mean that I like Payton. He is not a great head coach. I do not like his approach, but to sit there and present the record like it is an indictment of his offense or how he handles QBs is not correct.

 

[keasley45]

Great post from the Broncos board:

Originally posted by GMTD View Post

Reading between the lines I suspect the following:

1. Broncos discussed reworking the date on which the 2025 injury guarantee would become binding - hoping to push this back from 2024 to 2025.

2. RW's team pushed back, most probably because with a QB already in his mid thirties, and given the current state of long term injuries in the league to key players; they considered the current arrangements to be necessary for Russ.

2. Either there was a threat to bench Russ as he did not agree to vary the clsuses, or there wasnt. Russ's team says there was and they subsequently referred the matter to the players' union and the league to see whether this would be allowed. Broncos say there wasn't. My feeling is that there was no explicit threat to bench Russ but that Russ's people looked into the levers they could pull to put the Broncos on the defensive if the Broncos did subsequently bench Russ - hence looking into the point with those bodies.

3 These discussions took place when Russ had gone 6-11 in 2022 and 3-5 in 2023. The Broncos looking in some way to restructure a superstar contract given these results is understandable.

4. The Broncos did not bench Russ and won 5 in a row, only now benching Russ after he had gone 1-3 with 8 TDs and 4 INTs, including a loss at home to the Pats that practically ended the Broncos season.

I can see both sides and don't consider anyone has acted outside of their interests. Russ team's job is to protect the career and value of their client. I don't think they had any intention of leaking their side of the story until they thought Russ was done in Denver. The Broncos sought to protect the medium to long term success of the team.

I just don't understand how the Donks or Payton acted in bad faith.

 

[LastRideOut]

Another good post from the Broncos board, by FR Tim. View Post.

FR Tim:

The convenient spin being told by the Wilson camp about “restructure or be benched” is being overblown IMO.

The discussion has been posted around here since the beginning of the season. Are we believing that it is shocker to be asked to restructure to avoid the risk of injury and no financial flexibility? Broncos were doing their due diligence, but did they really “ threaten “ or just state the reality of the situation ? Context of how it was stated and how it was received is everything.

IMO Wilson got his ego bruised by the benching. Obviously the contract risk was a major factor. His season long mediocrity has just as much to do with the decision. Would it really be an issue if he doesn’t go 3 and out in the 4th quarter, they get the FG, and the Broncos were still in the playoff hunt? He would likely still be playing this Sunday despite the financial risk.

This is exactly what I suspect. The Broncos management probably stated the realty if the situation, i.e, if play is not up to contract, the possibility remains that you may be benched at some point so the injury guarantee doesn't kick in.

My $$$ says that is how the conversation went. The me3 team just spun it as an outright threat to bench if he didn't comply, because again, Russ is good at playing the victim and trying to look like the blameless good guy in all this.

I have a really hard time showing any sympathy for a guy missing out on 37 million because of his own doing, which is poor play. What are the Broncos supposed to do? Hand over millions, and take it up in the ass with a giant smile on their faces? They are going to try to do their due diligence for the good of the team. To do otherwise would be negligent.

So, the 250 million man got his feelings hurt, because he might be short 37 million on 250 million. Oh, my heart breaks. My tears flow.

Grow a pair Russ, and get with the program.

 

[djb28]

Saw this today and agree with it.

 

[ccla]

Saw this today and agree with it.

There was indeed one thing Russel could have done to avoid this situation: Play LIKE a franchise QB not like a bottom feeder. The problem is that he cannot. Now, does this make berating him on the sidelines right? Maybe not, but it makes it understandable.
It is easy to play the richeous (sp?) card with somebody’s else money!!

 

[James in PA]

I just want to get John63's hot take on this matter (a.k.a. D angeruss And C ierra)

 

[IndyHawk]

Another good post from the Broncos board, by FR Tim. View Post.




This is exactly what I suspect. The Broncos management probably stated the realty if the situation, i.e, if play is not up to contract, the possibility remains that you may be benched at some point so the injury guarantee doesn't kick in.

My $$$ says that is how the conversation went. The me3 team just spun it as an outright threat to bench if he didn't comply, because again, Russ is good at playing the victim and trying to look like the blameless good guy in all this.

I have a really hard time showing any sympathy for a guy missing out on 37 million because of his own doing, which is poor play. What are the Broncos supposed to do? Hand over millions, and take it up in the ass with a giant smile on their faces? They are going to try to do their due diligence for the good of the team. To do otherwise would be negligent.

So, the 250 million man got his feelings hurt, because he might be short 37 million on 250 million. Oh, my heart breaks. My tears flow.

Grow a pair Russ, and get with the program.

He's not getting $250 million
He being paid under the Hawks contract through this year,he got $50 million as signing bonus
upfront and he's getting the $37 million (year 1)
The injury thing is if he got hurt it gives him year 2 money and they are cutting him instead of
paying anymore than the bonus and year one.
They take a massive cap hit of course for a couple years but do not pay him a total of $158 million.
So he still made out like a Mcburgler thief for non elite play.

 

[LastRideOut]

He's not getting $250 million
He being paid under the Hawks contract through this year,he got $50 million as signing bonus
upfront and he's getting the $37 million (year 1)
The injury thing is if he got hurt it gives him year 2 money and they are cutting him instead of
paying anymore than the bonus and year one.
They take a massive cap hit of course for a couple years but do not pay him a total of $158 million.
So he still made out like a Mcburgler thief for non elite play.

Yeah I know. The contract is 250 million. I think I read somewhere, that assuming he is cut in the off season as is expected, he will get around 124 million of that 250 million contract.

Still a big chunk of money. Far more than I'll ever see in my lifetime.

 

[knownone]

Saw this today and agree with it.

Ryan Clark should avoid the business sector because what he's described is what good executives do when coming to an underperforming company. Payton established himself as the leader from day one and ensured the highest-paid player was on notice that no one was bigger than the team.

Imagine being in the Broncos' locker room right now; knowing the face of the franchise, with decent stats and a massive guaranteed contract, wasn't even safe. What message does that send? Payton would rather play with one hand tied behind his back financially than empower players who are not fully aligned with his vision. That's risky yet bold leadership.

 

[keasley45]

Ryan Clark should avoid the business sector because what he's described is what good executives do when coming to an underperforming company. Payton established himself as the leader from day one and ensured the highest-paid player was on notice that no one was bigger than the team.

Imagine being in the Broncos' locker room right now; knowing the face of the franchise, with decent stats and a massive guaranteed contract, wasn't even safe. What message does that send? Payton would rather play with one hand tied behind his back financially than empower players who are not fully aligned with his vision. That's risky yet bold leadership.

I can bet you dollars to donuts that not a single player in that lockeroom is saying ' wow, but his stats are so good'.

Have you seen Russ's lineman leave him on the ground after a sack... just walk away from him?

Have you seen his receivers body language on plays where they've been wide open and he's foregone the throw because he either didn't see it or chose the checkdown? Not every once in a while, but multiple times a game.

The Broncos offense was again the beneficiary of the defense handing them fantastic field position and still the unit is at the bottom of the league in multiple critical statistical categories.

I think the only folks who actually guve credence to his stats are those who pull for him, those who don't actually watch the Broncos games to see the stagnant state of the offense in action, or media talking heads who are leaning on them to have something controversial to talk about. You just can't have a unit ranked between 24 and 32 in critical performance categories and claim the qb is playing well.

The guys in the lockerroom know exactly why he was benched and I'd wager were surprised that it maybe didn't happen sooner.

 

[OrangeGravy]

Excellent read, and probably an accurate breakdown of what's going on in donkey land.

That first camp with Hackett played out just like Russell's early Seahawks camps. There were reports of Simmons, the safety, yelling at Russell and the offense not being able to do anything against the D. I hope to God the next team RW is on has a date with hardnocks

 

[OrangeGravy]

Great post from the Broncos board:

Originally posted by GMTD View Post

Reading between the lines I suspect the following:

1. Broncos discussed reworking the date on which the 2025 injury guarantee would become binding - hoping to push this back from 2024 to 2025.

2. RW's team pushed back, most probably because with a QB already in his mid thirties, and given the current state of long term injuries in the league to key players; they considered the current arrangements to be necessary for Russ.

2. Either there was a threat to bench Russ as he did not agree to vary the clsuses, or there wasnt. Russ's team says there was and they subsequently referred the matter to the players' union and the league to see whether this would be allowed. Broncos say there wasn't. My feeling is that there was no explicit threat to bench Russ but that Russ's people looked into the levers they could pull to put the Broncos on the defensive if the Broncos did subsequently bench Russ - hence looking into the point with those bodies.

3 These discussions took place when Russ had gone 6-11 in 2022 and 3-5 in 2023. The Broncos looking in some way to restructure a superstar contract given these results is understandable.

4. The Broncos did not bench Russ and won 5 in a row, only now benching Russ after he had gone 1-3 with 8 TDs and 4 INTs, including a loss at home to the Pats that practically ended the Broncos season.

I can see both sides and don't consider anyone has acted outside of their interests. Russ team's job is to protect the career and value of their client. I don't think they had any intention of leaking their side of the story until they thought Russ was done in Denver. The Broncos sought to protect the medium to long term success of the team.

I just don't understand how the Donks or Payton acted in bad faith.

The best part is the NFLPA would've or did tell them there's nothing they can do about it because they have no control over it. It's no different than giving a player a salary cut or release ultimatum

 

[NoGain]

From the Washington Post story on RW and the Broncos...

"The NFL Players Association told the Denver Broncos in an early-November letter that the team’s threat to bench quarterback Russell Wilson if he did not agree to adjust his contract was illegal and violated the collective bargaining agreement between the NFL and the NFLPA, creating the possibility that the union would initiate an arbitration proceeding or litigation against the team and the league.

The letter by NFLPA attorney Jeffrey Kessler was dated Nov. 4 and was sent to the Broncos and the NFL’s management council.

“It has come to our attention that the Denver Broncos recently informed Mr. Wilson and his Certified Contract Advisor that if Mr. Wilson would not renegotiate his Player Contract to relinquish certain salary guarantees, the Broncos would remove him from the starting lineup,” the NFLPA wrote in the letter, a copy of which The Washington Post obtained.

The letter continued: “If the Broncos follow-through on the Club’s threat, the Club will violate, among other things, the Collective Bargaining Agreement, Mr. Wilson’s Player Contract and New York law. And, we are particularly concerned that the Broncos still intend to commit these violations under the guise of ‘coaching decisions.’ ”

 

[Palmegranite]

Uh oh......
Or to summarize for the lazy reader:

Russ good, Broncos management/brain trust bad.

 

[toffee]

From the Washington Post story on RW and the Broncos...

"The NFL Players Association told the Denver Broncos in an early-November letter that the team’s threat to bench quarterback Russell Wilson if he did not agree to adjust his contract was illegal and violated the collective bargaining agreement between the NFL and the NFLPA, creating the possibility that the union would initiate an arbitration proceeding or litigation against the team and the league.

The letter by NFLPA attorney Jeffrey Kessler was dated Nov. 4 and was sent to the Broncos and the NFL’s management council.

“It has come to our attention that the Denver Broncos recently informed Mr. Wilson and his Certified Contract Advisor that if Mr. Wilson would not renegotiate his Player Contract to relinquish certain salary guarantees, the Broncos would remove him from the starting lineup,” the NFLPA wrote in the letter, a copy of which The Washington Post obtained.

The letter continued: “If the Broncos follow-through on the Club’s threat, the Club will violate, among other things, the Collective Bargaining Agreement, Mr. Wilson’s Player Contract and New York law. And, we are particularly concerned that the Broncos still intend to commit these violations under the guise of ‘coaching decisions.’ ”

So Broncos wanted to bench him in early November, but to bench him for on the ground of financial grounds would be illegal, bench him under coaching decisions could be legal. Things did not go ownership/coaches' way in Nov and a good part of December when the team had that 5 games winning streak, how inconvenient. Finally, the team suffered a two game losing streak, lol, in came the coaching decisions.

The ownership, front office, and head coach was secretly wishing the team didn't win in Nov, as winning prevented them from benching Wilson. Allowing Wilson to play was a risk, that injury/financial risk.

Some Hollywood type should start scripting a movie for these two month in Denver, where head coach, front office and ownership wanting the team not to win while the players were enjoying a 5 game winning streak.