What wrong with Payton?

[knownone]

Payton probably saw how Russell's camp worked the media in Seattle to frame Pete, John, and Jody as the villains and prepared for it. Unfortunately for Russ, he doesn't have the clout in Denver to pull that strategy off again and Payton (unlike Pete) is classless enough to throw him under the bus.

 

[keasley45]

almost universally players are coming out against Payton and how he’s handled this. It’s a dumpster fire of his own creation

I hear some former player, now media talking heads making a stir of it, pointing to the same meaningless stats of his.

I have not heard any Denver players twisted about it. In fact, either Jeudy or Sutton seem pretty high on Payton's approach overall, saying he demands excellence and they appreciate that. 99% isn't good enough. And that Payton demands it of himself, willingly changing play designs and concepts if they don't work.

This 'backlash' reaction by the media is no different than the overwhelming praise the trade received (for Denver) for landing a superstar. Did any of them bother to look at tape to see if Russ could actually run a Hackett offense? Nope. Just stats. Even local Denver fans posted videos urging caution in getting too high on expectations with Russ based on a lookback at his play in Seattle and the handful of plays he seemed to run well. But it was all ignored.

And when Payton came along, everybody blamed Hackett for Russ failures, again, just locking onto stats and highlights. And they ignored comments from Terry Bradshaw that stated Payton didn't want Russell at all.

So folks can call Payton a jerk all they want, but if like anytime over Russ's career, if you actually look passed the shiney completion percentage and TDs to his actual qb'ing ability (and Payton surely did) you'd see what his game really is. And Payton for sure did.

So what is he supposed to do? Play Russ because everyone THINKS he's capable of running his offense? He's doing what's best for his team. Sitting the guy he knew, and then confirmed couldn't cut it, and getting a look at the guy he brought in who he has a hunch might be able to do it.

 

[Palmegranite]

On the surface it appears that Sean Payton is the lackey doing the dirty work for the billionaires that don't want to pay the millionaire.
Shannon Sharp's Nightcap channel has a strong opinion on this from a player's perspective.

 

[Lords of Scythia]

What's wrong with Payton? Why does he have to insult Wilson regularly?

Wilson taking a pay cut is a joke, it doesn't matter how humiliated he gets--the coin is what floats his boat. Secondly, his cap hit is only 22 mil this year.

 

[NoGain]

So you're saying Russ is a classless jerk?

I wasn't talking about RW. I was talking about Payton in the Payton thread.

 

[keasley45]

Payton might be frustrated by the fact that besides those solid completion numbers, almost 40% of Russ's passes have been to RBs. For a coach who likes to push the ball, and for a team that doesn't feature a dynamic pass catching threat out of the backfield, those numbers are indicative of an offense built on short passes, not a high powered pass offense.
Denvers distribution :

RBs - 113 catches 39%
WRs - 149 catches
TEs - 35 catches

By contrast our Seahawks have completed:

213 passes to Wrs
57 passes to RBs 17%
61 passes to TEs

My math might be off be a couple, but just a couple.

Now granted, one could argue that we could use the RBs out of the backfield a bit more. But I'd wager a percentage closer to 30 is healthier than 40 if you arent featuring one of those rare backfield receiving rbs.

For the sake of comparison to a team that does feature a high powered, pass catching RB, I added in the 9ers stats.

215 to wrs (including Kittle)
80 to RBs 27%
3 to TEs (not named Kittle)

The 9ers are an odd case study but I used them anyway because of how integral CMC is to their passing game. He's a significant part of their passing attack and overall scheme, yet, rb utilization in SF is only at 27 %.

And, where in Denver, their pass yards per attempt rank 25th at 6.9 yards, in SF their attack leads the NFL at 9.7. We come in 13th at 7.2.

And yards per completion, we are 13th at 10.4, one tenth from Philly in 8th. Denver is at 9.5 and the 24th spot, .1 better than Chicago at 26.

Denver is also 27th on punts per play. Which, when you consider the insane number of additional possessions their overperforming defense gave them, ... it all paints a picture of a pretty meager offense, led by fairly pedestrian qb numbers. And completion percentages aided by the number of easy passes taken out of the backfield and TDs boosted by the number of short fields provided by the D.

Maybe that's why Payton is pissed. And I wouldn't be surprised if he came out and addressed the issue of their being a feeling that Russ is being unfairly treated because of how good his numbers look. Payton is fully aware that those number are inflated and wouldn't look as good if Russ didn't have the checkdowns to resort to (provided by Payton's design) or a defense that was playing out of its mind.

Not hate, just the number behind the numbers.

 

[Palmegranite]

The more I hear about this Payton character, the less I care for him....

 

[keasley45]

I wasn't talking about RW. I was talking about Payton in the Payton thread.

I know

 

[HawkeyGoalie]

Or, maybe he's just an overrated coach who was successful more because of Brees than anything.

Same goes for RW who was successful more because of LOB, Marshawn, DB

 

[chris98251]

Payton is a great play caller, he had a QB that was smart, had guts, loved by his team and would bleed for them. That guy retired, he also is in the mold of Belichick and whatever it takes to win and motivate a player to do what he wants them to do.

Wilson is about the Brand and his legacy, he still has not figured out that if you put yourself out there on the line with the rest of the team all the things he wants would have happened. There is a reason his team mates keep their distance from him, he doesn't involve himself as a team mate with them. He would not bleed for them if asked.

Why Matt was a better QB and team guy, his team mates loved him because he would sell out for them, Wilson will sell them out.

Payton sees that in Wilson, he changed the environment right away which had to piss Wilson off also, Wilson thought he would cement his legacy, didn't understand that he had to change to do it, he lost weight, he said all the right things in public, but you look at his team mates and how they interact he is the same guy, Payton won't coddle him like Pete did, Drew earned Payton's respect, it's obvious that Wilson and his entourage has not.

Sure Payton is a jerk, Belichick is a Jerk, plenty of head coaches have been jerks, but these two know offense and defense and will push the rules beyond boundaries and say it's all good till your caught doing it. That's what you get with him and that type, if he is on your team you love him for it, and everyone else will hate you.

 

[Palmegranite]

Q: Did Pete ever have to threaten to bench any Seahawk on behalf of Paul Allen over a scheme to renege on a contract?

 

[HawkeyGoalie]

On the surface it appears that Sean Payton is the lackey doing the dirty work for the billionaires that don't want to pay the millionaire.
Shannon Sharp's Nightcap channel has a strong opinion on this from a player's perspective.

I'm a billion dollars short from being a billionare but I wouldnt want to pay him either - In the real world an employee who doesnt meet expectations gets fired or suspended. RW is like that executive who drove the company he was hired to help fix into the ground...and then gets a multi million dollar severance package.

 

[keasley45]

Again.

Russ at qb 2023:

27th in punts per play
25th in yards per attempt
24th in yards per completion
26th in 3rd down conversions
26th in passing yards per game
26th in sacks taken
And near league leading in self inflicted sacks.

Bottom 5th in 3 and outs if I recall correctly

31st in plays per game (despite an inordinant number of additional possessions)

Almost 40% of his passes went to rbs (SF threw to them at 27%)

And Payton shouldn't be upset??

And those numbers are what all the Russ apologists are defending. The Denver offense stinks and Russ is a major part of why that is.

Here's a pretty good article highlighting some of the above.

Sean Payton bemoans 'self-inflicted problems' that have torpedoed Broncos offense

Without explosive firepower, the Broncos have been unable to withstand the giveaways that have come too frequently down the stretch.

theathletic.com

Touting Russ's comp percentage and tds is woefully misleading.

 

[IndyHawk]

Q: Did Pete ever have to threaten to bench any Seahawk on behalf of Paul Allen over a scheme to renege on a contract?

Scheme?
He's getting the first year of the new contract in 2024.. If he got hurt then they are
on the hook for 2 years at least and he's nowhere worth that.
All he had to do was take that injury thing out or redo the whole contract to reflect his
value but he sure as hell chose to take the money and run so he we are.

 

[LastRideOut]

almost universally players are coming out against Payton and how he’s handled this. It’s a dumpster fire of his own creation

Really?

 

[Ozzy]

Really?

How is this a knock on Wilson? What do you expect him to say if asked?

 

[LastRideOut]

How is this a knock on Wilson? What do you expect him to say if asked?

You said players were universally coming out against Payton for benching Russ. I was providing a counter-example. Seems Jerry is just fine with it.

 

[strohmin]

Sean Payton has acted like a classless p*ick since he arrived in Denver as head coach. There's already multiple examples of this. But it's been clear from the beginning, as the above article articulates, that Sean Payton and RW was a match made in hell. RW would have had to evolve into a completely different QB for this pairing to have succeeded. But it became painfully evident that RW was all but incapable of doing so, and there was evidence of this as early as his last three seasons in Seattle when he refused to adjust his approach and style of play when it became apparent that his deteriorating athleticism/escapability was compromising the style of play that had made him so successful earlier in his career.

Sean Payton's classless attitude and approach towards RW was only matched by RW's seeming obliviousness and/or pigheadedness about the adjustments he needed to make as a QB to remain a viable starting QB in the NFL. It was as if RW couldn't see what any astute observer of the NFL could plainly see, or that he was stubbornly living in some kind of a dream world of magical thinking that he was somehow immune to the realities that were making themselves so clearly apparent.

This relationship was toxic from the very beginning. I was a bit surprised that Payton took the job in Denver in the first place, knowing the mess he was going to have to clean up in order to run the kind of offense that he was accustomed to running. It is a bit of a shame, however, that Payton chose to classlessly and unceremoniously throw just about everybody under the bus in the organization in an effort to realize his own vision and direction for the team moving forward.

One thing seems certain, though. It's all on Payton now. He's going all-in on himself. He's apparently been green-lighted to make the changes he feels he needs to. The only question is how long of a leash of time he'll be granted to sucessfully rebuild the team in his image. As the saying goes, the harder they come, the harder they fall.

Russell asked for this so Im not sure what the problem is. Almost everyone was whining that he needed a hard ass head coach to get him back in shape after he failed so miserably with a coach in Nathaniell Hackett who basically coddled him. If Russell wanted to avoid this then he could have put together his own offensive gameplan last year when he pretty much had the same power as Hackett. He called it a partnership yet took no blame for the trash offense that was put together and didnt even lobby to go for it against Seattle with one of the biggest games of his career on the line. He then lobbies to bring in an asshole of a head coach and cries when it bites him in the ass.

If this guy was really serious about winning multiple championships, he would have lost the weight last season and focussed on his play rather branding and slogans. He would have played in those preseason games making sure he was in sync with his offense.

 

[LastRideOut]

Russell asked for this so Im not sure what the problem is. Almost everyone was whining that he needed a hard ass head coach to get him back in shape after he failed so miserably with a coach in Nathaniell Hackett who basically coddled him. If Russell wanted to avoid this then he could have put together his own offensive gameplan last year when he pretty much had the same power as Hackett. He called it a partnership yet took no blame for the trash offense that was put together and didnt even lobby to go for it against Seattle with one of the biggest games of his career on the line. He then lobbies to bring in an asshole of a head coach and cries when it bites him in the ass.

If this guy was really serious about winning multiple championships, he would have lost the weight last season and focussed on his play rather branding and slogans. He would have played in those preseason games making sure he was in sync with his offense.

Yup and if there is one thing abundantly clear by now, Russ is much better at playing the PR game than playing an actual quarterback.

 

[NoGain]

Yup and if there is one thing abundantly clear by now, Russ is much better at playing the PR game than playing an actual quarterback.

But is RW really good at playing the PR game? Just a question. Sure, early on in his career in Seattle I'd say so. But as soon as some sunlight was shone on what really happened at the end of his tenure in Seattle, a lot of people and fans turned on him. Then him getting his private office in Denver, and thus cloistering himself off from his teammates, as if he was royalty, some kind of a savior. Then his endless sanctimonious self promotion on social media rubbing people the wrong way. Then his charity work coming under scrutiny as more a benefit for himself and his peeps.

I think he's pretty well known as kind of a sanctimonious phony, even making it abundantly clear day and night that Jesus/God is on his side, as if such a supreme being was picking favorites.

I think you could make an argument that he's been a bad PR machine. Just look at how strongly divided people are about him.

Just a thought.