The plan for better pass protection

twisted_steel2

Active member
Joined
Mar 4, 2007
Messages
6,850
Reaction score
1
Location
Tennessee
Good article, I like the stats about getting the pass out in under 2.5 seconds. So much more to sacks then offensive line play.

Consider that in 110 times this season that Russell Wilson has dropped back to pass and got rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds or less, he has been sacked exactly one time

In the 150 times he has taken 2.6 seconds or more, he has been sacked 26 times

Russell Wilson ranks 36th in the NFL in time to throw, averaging 3.18 seconds. Only Michael Vick and Terrelle Pryor take longer

Is this Russell's still learning, and will continue to get faster? Scheme? We just don't run many quick outs, screens, slants, etc? Or the receivers not getting open?

http://www.hawkblogger.com/2013/10/the- ... ction.html
 

AbsolutNET

New member
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Messages
8,974
Reaction score
1
Location
PNW
Russ needs to learn that not every play needs to be a home run and get rid of the ball sooner. I have been hesitant to question his comfort reading defenses, because it can be hard to tell what he's being asked to do when under pressure so often and so quickly. But...

I really question Bevell's capability of putting together a short passing game that will help Russ develop that talent. So far a lot of the combos we see are QB 101 and the D is not struggling to take it away. We simply don't have a "drop and throw" passing game and its going to cost us against potent offenses when we can't keep up.
 

bestfightstory

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
8,591
Reaction score
62
Great observations here. Everybody seems to have an angle and an ax to grind and this information can be spun to conform to your own personal argument and belief system about who must render their pound of flesh for this outrage. But there is definitely good objective scientific food for thought here that goes a bit deeper than the blame game.
 

HawkGA

New member
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
107,412
Reaction score
1
twisted_steel2":20mlqequ said:
Good article, I like the stats about getting the pass out in under 2.5 seconds. So much more to sacks then offensive line play.

Consider that in 110 times this season that Russell Wilson has dropped back to pass and got rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds or less, he has been sacked exactly one time

In the 150 times he has taken 2.6 seconds or more, he has been sacked 26 times

Russell Wilson ranks 36th in the NFL in time to throw, averaging 3.18 seconds. Only Michael Vick and Terrelle Pryor take longer

Is this Russell's still learning, and will continue to get faster? Scheme? We just don't run many quick outs, screens, slants, etc? Or the receivers not getting open?

http://www.hawkblogger.com/2013/10/the- ... ction.html

It could also be that his scrambling extends to the play and thus the time until sacked. He may not get sacked in under 2.5 seconds but if he had a guy in his face under 2 seconds but scrambled away, it's basically the same thing.
 

-The Glove-

New member
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
7,689
Reaction score
0
HawkGA":o0xy6hqs said:
twisted_steel2":o0xy6hqs said:
Good article, I like the stats about getting the pass out in under 2.5 seconds. So much more to sacks then offensive line play.

Consider that in 110 times this season that Russell Wilson has dropped back to pass and got rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds or less, he has been sacked exactly one time

In the 150 times he has taken 2.6 seconds or more, he has been sacked 26 times

Russell Wilson ranks 36th in the NFL in time to throw, averaging 3.18 seconds. Only Michael Vick and Terrelle Pryor take longer

Is this Russell's still learning, and will continue to get faster? Scheme? We just don't run many quick outs, screens, slants, etc? Or the receivers not getting open?

http://www.hawkblogger.com/2013/10/the- ... ction.html

It could also be that his scrambling extends to the play and thus the time until sacked. He may not get sacked in under 2.5 seconds but if he had a guy in his face under 2 seconds but scrambled away, it's basically the same thing.

True...in how many of those instances where its taking more than 2.5 is he running for his life already?
 

volsunghawk

New member
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
8,860
Reaction score
0
Location
Right outside Richard Sherman's house
twisted_steel2":3fghd48l said:
Is this Russell's still learning, and will continue to get faster? Scheme? We just don't run many quick outs, screens, slants, etc? Or the receivers not getting open?

I imagine it's probably a combination of all of those things. In a game like football, where so many moving parts are dependent on one another, I've found that it's rare when you can just point at one thing and say, "That's the issue. Fix that and everything changes."
 

Largent80

New member
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
36,653
Reaction score
5
Location
The Tex-ASS
Is it just me or is Unger not playing well either?....I re-watched the game last night and all is saw was backwards motion from him, even on runs.
 

Happypuppy

New member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Messages
1,975
Reaction score
0
Keep in mind Wilson is also second in length of pass completion. It takes longer to run long routes. Maybe they need to start throwing underneath more utilize Miller , Baldwin
 

Smelly McUgly

New member
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
4,282
Reaction score
0
Location
God's Country AKA Cascadia AKA The Pacific Northwe
I guess this is where the discussion actually is. I'll repeat my thoughts, not that they are valuable necessarily.

The coaching staff needs to return to its run commitment, regardless of how many players the defense stacks in the box.


I am going to bang this drum repeatedly. They put eight or nine in the box? Come out in 22 and run the ball anyway.
 

Polk738

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Messages
977
Reaction score
876
Run the ball, screen passes, short underneath routes to Miller and Davis should work. We don't always have to throw the bomb to Tate, as exciting as that is but its not always gonna work.
 
OP
OP
twisted_steel2

twisted_steel2

Active member
Joined
Mar 4, 2007
Messages
6,850
Reaction score
1
Location
Tennessee
Brian Nemhauser ‏@hawkblogger 10m
Carroll also said on Monday that they need to add more quick passes and fewer straight dropbacks. It matters how the question is asked.


About time.
 

formido

New member
Joined
Nov 29, 2012
Messages
547
Reaction score
0
Location
Ventura, CA
twisted_steel2":18b7iu2h said:
Good article, I like the stats about getting the pass out in under 2.5 seconds. So much more to sacks then offensive line play.

Consider that in 110 times this season that Russell Wilson has dropped back to pass and got rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds or less, he has been sacked exactly one time

In the 150 times he has taken 2.6 seconds or more, he has been sacked 26 times

Russell Wilson ranks 36th in the NFL in time to throw, averaging 3.18 seconds. Only Michael Vick and Terrelle Pryor take longer

Is this Russell's still learning, and will continue to get faster? Scheme? We just don't run many quick outs, screens, slants, etc? Or the receivers not getting open?

http://www.hawkblogger.com/2013/10/the- ... ction.html

This is because we don't throw much and when we do, it's to make big plays. We're being forced to throw short passes more lately because teams are scheming away our long passes. It's not our preference.

QBs who rely on short passes to handle poor pass protection do well until they don't. Then they throw 9 picks over the course of two games, like Matt Ryan against Arizona. Russell Wilson is "multiple". If the pass protection is too bad, he can still make throwing and passing plays. At a certain threshold, when the pass rush is too fast for them, rhythm passers like Manning and Ryan start making more errors than good plays, like Manning did against Indy. And they have no back-up plan. Football teams always want to be multiple. It's no accident we have a running QB. If a team schemes away our passing attack, Wilson can still make plays, and eventually make them play more honest.

When rhythm passers are pressured, they start having to force the ball too quickly into too tight of windows. They might get away with it for a few plays, but at some point their luck runs out. On the other hand, Wilson won't do that. He tries to avoid INTs like the plague. That's why you'll hardly ever see an INT from him on a simple overthrow in the middle of the field. Almost all his INTs come on final plays of halves, batted balls, or balls that hit the receivers hands.

There are <5 guys who are really consistently good at the ball control passing attack and like I said, even they break against the best pass rushes, e.g., Brady against the Giants. We have no reason to believe that Wilson could copy them. Wilson has his own strengths and he's using them at an elite level despite enormous pressure.

Seattle optimizes for big plays first, not pretty passing attack first. A pretty passing attack is certainly on the list, we'd love to look like the last half of last year all the time, but it's not THE priority. And having correct priorities is how we ended up with an 80 yard TD to Tate that was the deciding points in the Rams game. We had the most points per yard in the NFL last year because we prioritize big plays where other teams prioritize (implicitly) yards.

BTW, no kidding throws that get out in under 2.5 seconds have a higher passer rating. If your play works, it works. That doesn't really tell you anything. You can't tell your QB "hey, throw the ball in under 2.5 seconds every time" and suddenly have a magically delicious passing attack. Don't confuse correlation with causation.

Arizona is now #2 in defensive DVOA. We scored 34 points on them last week. St. Louis is a bad match-up for us. We're 7-1 for a reason. We lead the NFC in point differential for a reason.

Last year, Wilson was 5th in the NFL last year in passer rating when holding onto the ball for >2.4 seconds. This year he's around 10 or 11. This is because the pass protection sucks.

Last year, Wilson led the NFL in holding onto the ball. He was also number one in passer rating for the last 10 games of the year and 5th for the whole year. This should be a fairly obvious clue that holding onto the ball "too long" is not a problem for Wilson. Pass protection is the problem.
 

keatonisballin

New member
Joined
Jan 7, 2013
Messages
635
Reaction score
0
Location
Fed Way
twisted_steel2":2jhysd5w said:
Brian Nemhauser ‏@hawkblogger 10m
Carroll also said on Monday that they need to add more quick passes and fewer straight dropbacks. It matters how the question is asked.


About time.

Saw that too, finally he says it. But who knows how long he's known that and been trying to implement it?
 

SalishHawkFan

New member
Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
5,872
Reaction score
0
formido":21yroo51 said:
twisted_steel2":21yroo51 said:
Good article, I like the stats about getting the pass out in under 2.5 seconds. So much more to sacks then offensive line play.

Consider that in 110 times this season that Russell Wilson has dropped back to pass and got rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds or less, he has been sacked exactly one time

In the 150 times he has taken 2.6 seconds or more, he has been sacked 26 times

Russell Wilson ranks 36th in the NFL in time to throw, averaging 3.18 seconds. Only Michael Vick and Terrelle Pryor take longer

Is this Russell's still learning, and will continue to get faster? Scheme? We just don't run many quick outs, screens, slants, etc? Or the receivers not getting open?

http://www.hawkblogger.com/2013/10/the- ... ction.html

This is because we don't throw much and when we do, it's to make big plays. We're being forced to throw short passes more lately because teams are scheming away our long passes. It's not our preference.

QBs who rely on short passes to handle poor pass protection do well until they don't. Then they throw 9 picks over the course of two games, like Matt Ryan against Arizona. Russell Wilson is "multiple". If the pass protection is too bad, he can still make throwing and passing plays. At a certain threshold, when the pass rush is too fast for them, rhythm passers like Manning and Ryan start making more errors than good plays, like Manning did against Indy. And they have no back-up plan. Football teams always want to be multiple. It's no accident we have a running QB. If a team schemes away our passing attack, Wilson can still make plays, and eventually make them play more honest.

When rhythm passers are pressured, they start having to force the ball too quickly into too tight of windows. They might get away with it for a few plays, but at some point their luck runs out. On the other hand, Wilson won't do that. He tries to avoid INTs like the plague. That's why you'll hardly ever see an INT from him on a simple overthrow in the middle of the field. Almost all his INTs come on final plays of halves, batted balls, or balls that hit the receivers hands.

There are <5 guys who are really consistently good at the ball control passing attack and like I said, even they break against the best pass rushes, e.g., Brady against the Giants. We have no reason to believe that Wilson could copy them. Wilson has his own strengths and he's using them at an elite level despite enormous pressure.

Seattle optimizes for big plays first, not pretty passing attack first. A pretty passing attack is certainly on the list, we'd love to look like the last half of last year all the time, but it's not THE priority. And having correct priorities is how we ended up with an 80 yard TD to Tate that was the deciding points in the Rams game. We had the most points per yard in the NFL last year because we prioritize big plays where other teams prioritize (implicitly) yards.

BTW, no kidding throws that get out in under 2.5 seconds have a higher passer rating. If your play works, it works. That doesn't really tell you anything. You can't tell your QB "hey, throw the ball in under 2.5 seconds every time" and suddenly have a magically delicious passing attack. Don't confuse correlation with causation.

Arizona is now #2 in defensive DVOA. We scored 34 points on them last week. St. Louis is a bad match-up for us. We're 7-1 for a reason. We lead the NFC in point differential for a reason.

Last year, Wilson was 5th in the NFL last year in passer rating when holding onto the ball for >2.4 seconds. This year he's around 10 or 11. This is because the pass protection sucks.

Last year, Wilson led the NFL in holding onto the ball. He was also number one in passer rating for the last 10 games of the year and 5th for the whole year. This should be a fairly obvious clue that holding onto the ball "too long" is not a problem for Wilson. Pass protection is the problem.

While the one does not point to causality, the fact is, Baldwin is the #1 Slot receiver in the NFL and he's been targeted the least. That's probably (based on Carrolls latest comments) due more to scheme than anything. They are TRYING to go deep. So the point still stands. If Wilson gets the ball out quick, he doesn't get sacked. Since Baldwin is being targeted so rarely, obvious the Hawks aren't TRYING to make quick throws.

So yes, the stats DO speak to causality in this case. The answer is to target Baldwin more often.

A good side effect of going to Baldwin on quick slants more often is that - in addition to sticking to their run game - that also forces the defense to play honest and not just take away the deep routes. When all you throw are deep routes, you make the secondaries job easier and you also make the pass rush easier. So going to Baldwin more often opens up the long ball as well as answering the pass rush.
 

JonRud

Active member
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
1,346
Reaction score
0
Location
NJ
I think part of it is that unfortunately with Wilson's height it's harder for him to make a quick pass on a 3-step drop because he doesn't have great visibility over the line. A 6'4" QB is going to have a much easier time with a very quick step & throw just because his vision is not as impaired.
 

Hawks46

New member
Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
7,498
Reaction score
0
Well, if we did change up our passing game, it would be throwing a curve ball at the rest of the teams that scout us and give everyone else a lot more to look at. You can only work on so much in a practice week.

When we've thrown short, it's been successful. Throws to Tate, Miller and Baldwin in the 3-5 yard range have netted us some decent first downs and looked pretty effective.

I honestly think Baldwin isn't being utilized enough. I expect to see some differences in our pass game now that Rice is out and Baldwin is in. Baldwin can be every bit as effective as Rice, but in a different way, which is good for us right now. Baldwin's strengths are playing to our weaknesses right now.
 

MysterMatt

Active member
Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
7,242
Reaction score
0
How hard is it to implement some screens, draws, and slants?
 

SalishHawkFan

New member
Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
5,872
Reaction score
0
JonRud":3sy7bqld said:
I think part of it is that unfortunately with Wilson's height it's harder for him to make a quick pass on a 3-step drop because he doesn't have great visibility over the line. A 6'4" QB is going to have a much easier time with a very quick step & throw just because his vision is not as impaired.
Brees says he can't see when he hits those quick slant routes. He just knows exactly where his WR is. Wilson is so conservative in order to avoid mistakes that I don't think Pete lets him find that kind of trust in Baldwin.
 

ivotuk

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Messages
23,298
Reaction score
2,014
Location
North Pole, Alaska
Smelly McUgly":2erkju7s said:
I guess this is where the discussion actually is. I'll repeat my thoughts, not that they are valuable necessarily.

The coaching staff needs to return to its run commitment, regardless of how many players the defense stacks in the box.


I am going to bang this drum repeatedly. They put eight or nine in the box? Come out in 22 and run the ball anyway.


Amen Brutha!

I heard people saying about St Loius "But they had 8 and 9 in the box!" BFD! They did the same thing to SF and FRANK GORE RAN FOR 153 yards on 7.7 yards per carry! Kendall Hunter ran for 49 yards at 4.5 YPC! F that!

RUN the FRIGGIN BALL!


And another thing! I'm glad we won but the reason I'm pissed is because we still have 8 more games! One of which is against St Louis who we lost to last year then barely beat at home! That game plan Monday was pathetic!

Edit: Instead they come out and start throwing against what is likely the best pass rushing team in the league when we are missing both tackles! IDIOCY!
 
Top