The elephant in the room (Graham)

[Spin Doctor]

Meanwhile he has more receptions than gronkowski, olsen, eifert, miller, etc, is tied for being the team leader in touchdowns, etc. All the while defenses haven't had to focus on lynch.

Some of y'all need to slow down. Yes, we need to focus on our o line (which we've been saying for years, so should we really be expecting anything else?), but it is possible to focus on our o line and leave graham out of the conversation. FYI...

Lynch, graham, Baldwin, lockett and Richardson on the field at once? Hnnnghh

Gronk has two and half times more yards, two more touchdowns more than double the yards per average. There are 11 TE's with the same or more yards, there are over 28 TE's with a higher yards per average, and there are 15 TE's with two or more touchdowns. Receptions are the only category that he is top 10 in at this moment.

For starters, 174 is not 2 and a half times smaller than 308. Secondly, most those numbers came from the game against Pittsburgh, when they decided it was best to leave him completely unguarded all game. They're bloated stats, and the rest of the league is starting to catch up. And jimmy is right in the thick of it. Stats can b framed however you like. But one touchdown, and he passes up most of those eleven.

Without beast mode mind you. Take a step back and examine what exactly that has meant...

My bad, for some reason I thought he had 400 yards, but the point remains, he has 134 more yards in one less game than Graham. Secondly last season he had 340 by this time of year, and three touchdowns with a significantly higher YPC. In four games in 2013 he had 459 yards, and 6 touchdowns. In 2012 he had 163 yards and three touchdowns. It is also worth noting that this was the year that they lost Sean Payton for one year due to the bounty gate scandal. In 2011 he had 367 yards and 3 touchdowns.

As you can see he is down from his yearly average for his first four games, all except 2012 where there was also some extenuating circumstances. He's also down thus far as a Seahawk from his average yards per game. In 2014 he averaged 55 yards per game, this year he is averaging 43. At Graham's current pace he'll be on pace for 8 touchdowns, down two from last year, and his lowest total since his rookie year. He is also averaging 0.8 yards less than his 2014 campaign.

Jimmy Graham is on pace for career low numbers in almost every metric if we omit his rookie season. Also, FYI Gronk has had over 100 yards receiving in two out of three of the games he has played, and 94 against Pittsburgh, also three touchdowns. Gronkowski has also played one less game than Graham thus far.

 

[Hawkpower]

Meanwhile he has more receptions than gronkowski, olsen, eifert, miller, etc, is tied for being the team leader in touchdowns, etc. All the while defenses haven't had to focus on lynch.

Some of y'all need to slow down. Yes, we need to focus on our o line (which we've been saying for years, so should we really be expecting anything else?), but it is possible to focus on our o line and leave graham out of the conversation. FYI...

Lynch, graham, Baldwin, lockett and Richardson on the field at once? Hnnnghh

Gronk has two and half times more yards, two more touchdowns more than double the yards per average. There are 11 TE's with the same or more yards, there are over 28 TE's with a higher yards per average, and there are 15 TE's with two or more touchdowns. Receptions are the only category that he is top 10 in at this moment.

For starters, 174 is not 2 and a half times smaller than 308. Secondly, most those numbers came from the game against Pittsburgh, when they decided it was best to leave him completely unguarded all game. They're bloated stats, and the rest of the league is starting to catch up. And jimmy is right in the thick of it. Stats can b framed however you like. But one touchdown, and he passes up most of those eleven.

Without beast mode mind you. Take a step back and examine what exactly that has meant...

My bad, for some reason I thought he had 400 yards, but the point remains, he has 134 more yards in one less game than Graham. Secondly last season he had 340 by this time of year, and three touchdowns with a significantly higher YPC. In four games in 2013 he had 459 yards, and 6 touchdowns. In 2012 he had 163 yards and three touchdowns. It is also worth noting that this was the year that they lost Sean Payton for one year due to the bounty gate scandal. In 2011 he had 367 yards and 3 touchdowns.

As you can see he is down from his yearly average for his first four games, all except 2012 where there was also some extenuating circumstances. He's also down thus far as a Seahawk from his average yards per game. In 2014 he averaged 55 yards per game, this year he is averaging 43. At Graham's current pace he'll be on pace for 8 touchdowns, down two from last year, and his lowest total since his rookie year. He is also averaging 0.8 yards less than his 2014 campaign.

Jimmy Graham is on pace for career low numbers in almost every metric if we omit his rookie season. Also, FYI Gronk has had over 100 yards receiving in two out of three of the games he has played, and 94 against Pittsburgh, also three touchdowns. Gronkowski has also played one less game than Graham thus far.

Well some drop off was to be expected.

Seattle is a run offense.

Russell Wilson is no Drew Brees.

But all things considered, his pace is pretty similar. Certainly not as dire as some here are trying to make it seem.

 

[hawknation2015]

Gronk has two and half times more yards, two more touchdowns more than double the yards per average. There are 11 TE's with the same or more yards, there are over 28 TE's with a higher yards per average, and there are 15 TE's with two or more touchdowns. Receptions are the only category that he is top 10 in at this moment.

For starters, 174 is not 2 and a half times smaller than 308. Secondly, most those numbers came from the game against Pittsburgh, when they decided it was best to leave him completely unguarded all game. They're bloated stats, and the rest of the league is starting to catch up. And jimmy is right in the thick of it. Stats can b framed however you like. But one touchdown, and he passes up most of those eleven.

Without beast mode mind you. Take a step back and examine what exactly that has meant...

My bad, for some reason I thought he had 400 yards, but the point remains, he has 134 more yards in one less game than Graham. Secondly last season he had 340 by this time of year, and three touchdowns with a significantly higher YPC. In four games in 2013 he had 459 yards, and 6 touchdowns. In 2012 he had 163 yards and three touchdowns. It is also worth noting that this was the year that they lost Sean Payton for one year due to the bounty gate scandal. In 2011 he had 367 yards and 3 touchdowns.

As you can see he is down from his yearly average for his first four games, all except 2012 where there was also some extenuating circumstances. He's also down thus far as a Seahawk from his average yards per game. In 2014 he averaged 55 yards per game, this year he is averaging 43. At Graham's current pace he'll be on pace for 8 touchdowns, down two from last year, and his lowest total since his rookie year. He is also averaging 0.8 yards less than his 2014 campaign.

Jimmy Graham is on pace for career low numbers in almost every metric if we omit his rookie season. Also, FYI Gronk has had over 100 yards receiving in two out of three of the games he has played, and 94 against Pittsburgh, also three touchdowns. Gronkowski has also played one less game than Graham thus far.

Well some drop off was to be expected.

Seattle is a run offense.

Russell Wilson is no Drew Brees.

But all things considered, his pace is pretty similar, all things considered. Certainly not as dire as some here are trying to make it seem.

It's not dire, it's just a blatant misuse of talent that I personally have a hard time wrapping my head around. Do you have a stat on first downs per game here vs. New Orleans? Because it does not appear that Graham is assisting a well-functioning offense. Instead, when he does get the ball for short gains, it feels like someone has performed a minor miracle.

 

[hawknation2015]

Jimmy Graham First Downs
2011 -- 74
2012 -- 59
2013 -- 61
2014 -- 54
2015 -- 9*

*On track for only 36 total first downs . . . just 2/3 of what he had during his injury-plagued 2014 season.

 

[Hawkpower]

For starters, 174 is not 2 and a half times smaller than 308. Secondly, most those numbers came from the game against Pittsburgh, when they decided it was best to leave him completely unguarded all game. They're bloated stats, and the rest of the league is starting to catch up. And jimmy is right in the thick of it. Stats can b framed however you like. But one touchdown, and he passes up most of those eleven.

Without beast mode mind you. Take a step back and examine what exactly that has meant...[/quote]
My bad, for some reason I thought he had 400 yards, but the point remains, he has 134 more yards in one less game than Graham. Secondly last season he had 340 by this time of year, and three touchdowns with a significantly higher YPC. In four games in 2013 he had 459 yards, and 6 touchdowns. In 2012 he had 163 yards and three touchdowns. It is also worth noting that this was the year that they lost Sean Payton for one year due to the bounty gate scandal. In 2011 he had 367 yards and 3 touchdowns.

As you can see he is down from his yearly average for his first four games, all except 2012 where there was also some extenuating circumstances. He's also down thus far as a Seahawk from his average yards per game. In 2014 he averaged 55 yards per game, this year he is averaging 43. At Graham's current pace he'll be on pace for 8 touchdowns, down two from last year, and his lowest total since his rookie year. He is also averaging 0.8 yards less than his 2014 campaign.

Jimmy Graham is on pace for career low numbers in almost every metric if we omit his rookie season. Also, FYI Gronk has had over 100 yards receiving in two out of three of the games he has played, and 94 against Pittsburgh, also three touchdowns. Gronkowski has also played one less game than Graham thus far.[/quote]











Well some drop off was to be expected.

Seattle is a run offense.

Russell Wilson is no Drew Brees.

But all things considered, his pace is pretty similar, all things considered. Certainly not as dire as some here are trying to make it seem.[/quote]

It's not dire, it's just a blatant misuse of talent that I personally have a hard time wrapping my head around. Do you have a stat on first downs per game here vs. New Orleans? Because it does not appear that Graham is assisting a well-functioning offense. Instead, when he does get the ball for short gains, it feels like someone has performed a minor miracle.[/quote]





Not disagreeing that he could be having a bigger impact.

I just think that some drop off in his stats was to be expected. He doesn't have Brees throwing him the ball anymore.

But he is our leading receiver, and I think his impact will continue to grow, as long as Bevell does as you suggest and split him wide more often.

 

[netskier]

What is dire is the pass protection.

Are you please with the sack rate, hurry rate, tackle for loss rates, and all other rates that result from poor pass production?

The question is not whether we are getting any value from him, but rather are we using him optimally.

Graham is arguably the best move right end in the league, and arguably the poorest blocking tight end, and Pete is proud that we always find the best ways to utilize our players, and yet we do not use him for his best skills which are receiving and not blocking. Blocking a lot will beat up his body, and lessen his receiving ability, so this shortens his career. It could also shorten Russ's career too by missing blocks that result in Russell getting injured.

 

[Hawkpower]

What is dire is the pass protection.

Are you please with the sack rate, hurry rate, tackle for loss rates, and all other rates that result from poor pass production?

The question is not whether we are getting any value from him, but rather are we using him optimally.

Graham is arguably the best move right end in the league, and arguably the poorest blocking tight end, and Pete is proud that we always find the best ways to utilize our players, and yet we do not use him for his best skills which are receiving and not blocking. Blocking a lot will beat up his body, and lessen his receiving ability, so this shortens his career. It could also shorten Russ's career too by missing blocks that result in Russell getting injured.

In yesterdays game, he ran routes on 80% of his plays.

Is 80/20 not a natural ratio for a pass catching tight end?

 

[hawknation2015]

What is dire is the pass protection.

Are you please with the sack rate, hurry rate, tackle for loss rates, and all other rates that result from poor pass production?

The question is not whether we are getting any value from him, but rather are we using him optimally.

Graham is arguably the best move right end in the league, and arguably the poorest blocking tight end, and Pete is proud that we always find the best ways to utilize our players, and yet we do not use him for his best skills which are receiving and not blocking. Blocking a lot will beat up his body, and lessen his receiving ability, so this shortens his career. It could also shorten Russ's career too by missing blocks that result in Russell getting injured.

In yesterdays game, he ran routes on 80% of his plays.

Is 80/20 not a natural ratio for a pass catching tight end?

It's actually extremely problematic because it meant he was being taken off the field in all but seven running plays, making Bevell's play calling even more predictable. Running routes from the in-line spot 40% of the time also means he was running shorter routes, mostly around the middle of the field, where Russell is less likely to see him.

 

[Hawkpower]

What is dire is the pass protection.

Are you please with the sack rate, hurry rate, tackle for loss rates, and all other rates that result from poor pass production?

The question is not whether we are getting any value from him, but rather are we using him optimally.

Graham is arguably the best move right end in the league, and arguably the poorest blocking tight end, and Pete is proud that we always find the best ways to utilize our players, and yet we do not use him for his best skills which are receiving and not blocking. Blocking a lot will beat up his body, and lessen his receiving ability, so this shortens his career. It could also shorten Russ's career too by missing blocks that result in Russell getting injured.

In yesterdays game, he ran routes on 80% of his plays.

Is 80/20 not a natural ratio for a pass catching tight end?

It's actually extremely problematic because it meant he was being taken off the field in all but seven running plays, making Bevell's play calling even more predictable. Running routes from the in-line spot 40% of the time also means he was running shorter routes, mostly around the middle of the field, where Russell is less likely to see him.

Again, true, but that is a different argument.

My response was to the erroneous argument that JG is being used as a blocker instead of a receiver.

Bevell using him more appropriately as a receiver is a different topic.

 

[massari]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/tthasselbeck/status/651408493245804544[/tweet]

So I guess his bad blocking is just lack of effort? How can someone of his size be a bad blocker?

 

[Hawkpower]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/tthasselbeck/status/651408493245804544[/tweet]

So I guess his bad blocking is just lack of effort? How can someone of his size be a bad blocker?

Probably a combination of things.

Doubtful that someone with his skillset really had to block much in the lower levels coming up.....and because of that he may lack the knowledge and the desire. In other words, he may feel above such things.

Of course this is just speculation, but it does seem odd that on some plays he blocks like a pro, and others he looks terrible.

 

[seahawk12thman]

After reading the field gulls article, it seems like when he decides to block he can be quite punishing. Maybe it is as little as being decisive when he looks for someone?

 

[akscoundrel]

Meanwhile he has more receptions than gronkowski, olsen, eifert, miller, etc, is tied for being the team leader in touchdowns, etc. All the while defenses haven't had to focus on lynch.

Some of y'all need to slow down. Yes, we need to focus on our o line (which we've been saying for years, so should we really be expecting anything else?), but it is possible to focus on our o line and leave graham out of the conversation. FYI...

Lynch, graham, Baldwin, lockett and Richardson on the field at once? Hnnnghh

Gronk has two and half times more yards, two more touchdowns more than double the yards per average. There are 11 TE's with the same or more yards, there are over 28 TE's with a higher yards per average, and there are 15 TE's with two or more touchdowns. Receptions are the only category that he is top 10 in at this moment.

For starters, 174 is not 2 and a half times smaller than 308. Secondly, most those numbers came from the game against Pittsburgh, when they decided it was best to leave him completely unguarded all game. They're bloated stats, and the rest of the league is starting to catch up. And jimmy is right in the thick of it. Stats can b framed however you like. But one touchdown, and he passes up most of those eleven.

Without beast mode mind you. Take a step back and examine what exactly that has meant...

My bad, for some reason I thought he had 400 yards, but the point remains, he has 134 more yards in one less game than Graham. Secondly last season he had 340 by this time of year, and three touchdowns with a significantly higher YPC. In four games in 2013 he had 459 yards, and 6 touchdowns. In 2012 he had 163 yards and three touchdowns. It is also worth noting that this was the year that they lost Sean Payton for one year due to the bounty gate scandal. In 2011 he had 367 yards and 3 touchdowns.

As you can see he is down from his yearly average for his first four games, all except 2012 where there was also some extenuating circumstances. He's also down thus far as a Seahawk from his average yards per game. In 2014 he averaged 55 yards per game, this year he is averaging 43. At Graham's current pace he'll be on pace for 8 touchdowns, down two from last year, and his lowest total since his rookie year. He is also averaging 0.8 yards less than his 2014 campaign.

Jimmy Graham is on pace for career low numbers in almost every metric if we omit his rookie season. Also, FYI Gronk has had over 100 yards receiving in two out of three of the games he has played, and 94 against Pittsburgh, also three touchdowns. Gronkowski has also played one less game than Graham thus far.

Four games......


Four games!

And even in worst case scenario with your on pace crap(all it takes is one game to throw that crap off) with four games, when's the last time we had a receiver with 8 touchdowns?

And ultimately, you are bashing Russell Wilson. Not bevell. Its Wilson decision who he throws the ball to, who he looks for, etc. But let me guess, its bevells fault for giving Russell the freedom to make that choice?

 

[StoneCold]

He doesn't play any of his positions with passion and fire. He is tall and has good hands, but I could see his attitude being a problem. Trade him now.

 

[bjornanderson21]

I dont see value in catering to a player who tries when he wants to.Harvin at least played hard and showed some toughness

Whether he wants to or not this O or any running game needs everyone to step up and block regardless of their position.Wr and TEs block downfield.They need to chip,they may need to recognise a blitz and pick it up instead of getting the RB thrown for a loss on 2nd and 4 like the video shows.Its all about having the work ethic and character to do whats best for the TEAM and not what Jimmy wants to do.

Or just send him wide and he can talk to the chain gang when the ball isnt designed to come his way.

WRONG!

When Harvin was being used as a decoy he would only jog. He failed as a decoy because he gave 0% effort unless the ball was coming to him.

As for toughness, you may have forgotten that Harvin was willing to potentially sit out the entire season right after signing the contract so he could have surgery when multiple doctors said he didn't need it.

There are many things I would call Harvin, and "tough" isn't one of them.

 

[netskier]

IIRC, Graham began playing football during his last year of eligibility, at which point he had already graduated and was earning his Masters. So one year of football experience plus how evermany he has played in the NFL.

Did I misremember this?

In any event, I think he is doing very well given his coaching experience.

I would still move him immediately to wide receiver, and train him to block during practices to. The probability of him getting hurt, or missing a block leading to a career ending injury to Russ makes learning to block during games too dangerous. The probabilities and plus expected values make his blocking just not worth doing.

 

[massari]

He doesn't play any of his positions with passion and fire. He is tall and has good hands, but I could see his attitude being a problem. Trade him now.

If things continue the way they are now for the rest of the season, I see no other choice but to trade him away for a 1st rounder.

They can't afford to pay him 10M a year and not use him.

 

[Hawkpower]

He doesn't play any of his positions with passion and fire. He is tall and has good hands, but I could see his attitude being a problem. Trade him now.

If things continue the way they are now for the rest of the season, I see no other choice but to trade him away for a 1st rounder.

They can't afford to pay him 10M a year and not use him.

He is our leading receiver.

 

[Exittium]

I honestly think he's lost, there some assignments he gets and other where when he whiffs, and runs down field he looks lost

 

[Fade]

The real elephant in the room is the offensive coaching staff isn't very good, and Sunshine Pete continues to turn a blind eye, as the same mistakes continue to happen week to week, season to season.

It's not Graham's fault that Bevell/Cable, or whoever think's he is Zach Miller.