Offensive Evolution

[Sgt. Largent]

If we were able to sign Peyton Manning sitting Wilson would be an option. Currently he is the most experienced QB on the roster and gives us the best chance to win.

Someone better tell Matt Flynn that Russell somehow snuck into the NFL eight years ago without anyone knowing and amassed copious amounts of experience.

Wilson - 7 NFL starts, 42 college starts in the last 5 years.
Flynn - 2 NFL starts, 14 college starts in the last 9 years.

I guess we disagree on what constitutes experience. To me Wilson is by far the more experienced QB. You can only learn so much holding a clipboard. To only have 16 starts in 9 years is worrisome. Wilson is by far the more experienced QB. Even if you just consider NFL starts Wilson has more. Im not a believer in you learn from the bench...so maybe we disagree on that.

If Wilson had "more" experience, then why is Carroll "taking him along slowly" and "opening up the playbook as we go along?"

Even the head coach knows who has more experience. There's no way our passing offense would be as restricted as it is if Flynn was the starter.

 

[hawker84]

you're basing this on the unknown certainty that Flynn would be having more success right now... even with the fact that our o line still struggles at times, so you can assume more sacks with flynn, our hands guys are still dropping balls and missing key opportunities.. and our offensive play calling sucks and is painfully predictable... again, your opinions are based on woulda shoulda coulda's... you don't know those uncertainties, therefore you cannot in all fairness make this claim.. provide some factual evidence before you post these claims.. JMO...

 

[oldhawkfan]

I apologize to everyone on this board. My intent was not to open up another Wilson/Flynn QB debate. My intent was to create some discussion about the offense as a whole. Last year the offense evolved from ineffective to a running juggernaut. Will we see the same type of evolution this year? Passing or runnning, I don't care. Just become effective. The evolution seemed to start when Giacomini and McQuistan were inserted. BTW, I am 100% in the Wilson camp. Have been since draft day.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

you're basing this on the unknown certainty that Flynn would be having more success right now... even with the fact that our o line still struggles at times, so you can assume more sacks with flynn, our hands guys are still dropping balls and missing key opportunities.. and our offensive play calling sucks and is painfully predictable... again, your opinions are based on woulda shoulda coulda's... you don't know those uncertainties, therefore you cannot in all fairness make this claim.. provide some factual evidence before you post these claims.. JMO...

......and you're basing you opinion on the future uncertainty that Wilson will someday be awesome, therefore worth all the growing pains this year and maybe next.

At least with my opinion there's facts that more of the passing offense would be available for us to succeed, as well as having a seven year vet knowing how to read defenses better and make the right choices throwing the ball and changing plays.

 

[hawker84]

i see steady improvement, we just got stop doing all these little things that kill us.. momentum is crucial for sustaining drives and building confidense... drops, penalties, poor coaching decisions, misses blocking assigments have hindered us to no end, my only knock on caroll to this point is he is not a diciplinary enough, holmgren would not have toloerated all these stupid penalties and missed blocking assigments.. PC needs to stop trying to be everyones friend and start bustin peoples A##SES... Giacamini!!!!! anyways go hawks

 

[ImTheScientist]

Someone better tell Matt Flynn that Russell somehow snuck into the NFL eight years ago without anyone knowing and amassed copious amounts of experience.

Wilson - 7 NFL starts, 42 college starts in the last 5 years.
Flynn - 2 NFL starts, 14 college starts in the last 9 years.

I guess we disagree on what constitutes experience. To me Wilson is by far the more experienced QB. You can only learn so much holding a clipboard. To only have 16 starts in 9 years is worrisome. Wilson is by far the more experienced QB. Even if you just consider NFL starts Wilson has more. Im not a believer in you learn from the bench...so maybe we disagree on that.

If Wilson had "more" experience, then why is Carroll "taking him along slowly" and "opening up the playbook as we go along?"

Even the head coach knows who has more experience. There's no way our passing offense would be as restricted as it is if Flynn was the starter.

He has publicly said Flynn would be treated the same.
Flynn has 16 starts in 9 years.
Wilson 49 starts in 5 years.

16 starts in 9 years is concerning to me.

 

[ImTheScientist]

you're basing this on the unknown certainty that Flynn would be having more success right now... even with the fact that our o line still struggles at times, so you can assume more sacks with flynn, our hands guys are still dropping balls and missing key opportunities.. and our offensive play calling sucks and is painfully predictable... again, your opinions are based on woulda shoulda coulda's... you don't know those uncertainties, therefore you cannot in all fairness make this claim.. provide some factual evidence before you post these claims.. JMO...

......and you're basing you opinion on the future uncertainty that Wilson will someday be awesome, therefore worth all the growing pains this year and maybe next.

At least with my opinion there's facts that more of the passing offense would be available for us to succeed, as well as having a seven year vet knowing how to read defenses better and make the right choices throwing the ball and changing plays.

Nope. Pete has said they are bringing Wilson along the same way they would have had to bring Flynn along. Also ....Flynn is not a 7 year vet.

The QB regardless of who it was would be brought along the same.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Nope. Pete has said they are bringing Wilson along the same way they would have had to bring Flynn along. Also ....Flynn is not a 7 year vet.

The QB regardless of who it was would be brought along the same.

There's the big difference here, you believe Carroll when he says stuff like this to mitigate his rookie's shortcomings. Did Green Bay restrict Flynn's playbook when he threw for five TD's and 600 yards?

Flynn's a veteran QB who learned the playbook back in March and April, I don't believe for a second that he'd have the same restrictions and conservative plays called as Wilson does.

We can debate all day whether Flynn = more wins due to poor WR play and offensive line protection. That's fine, but don't tell me he'd be restricted as much as Wilson is, that's just flat out BS.

 

[Sarlacc83]

Nope. Pete has said they are bringing Wilson along the same way they would have had to bring Flynn along. Also ....Flynn is not a 7 year vet.

The QB regardless of who it was would be brought along the same.

There's the big difference here, you believe Carroll when he says stuff like this to mitigate his rookie's shortcomings. Did Green Bay restrict Flynn's playbook when he threw for five TD's and 600 yards?

Flynn's a veteran QB who learned the playbook back in March and April, I don't believe for a second that he'd have the same restrictions and conservative plays called as Wilson does.

We can debate all day whether Flynn = more wins due to poor WR play and offensive line protection. That's fine, but don't tell me he'd be restricted as much as Wilson is, that's just flat out BS.

You know, if you're going to argue for Flynn, you should get the numbers right. (6 TDs and 480 yards). Also, Flynn wasn't exactly bombing it down the field. Of those 6 TDs, multiples were short throws where the receiver took it to the house.

And yes, Flynn would be restricted as much as Wilson. Pete has said it multiple times, and you can argue until you're blue in the fact that it's BS, but you're only fooling yourself.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Nope. Pete has said they are bringing Wilson along the same way they would have had to bring Flynn along. Also ....Flynn is not a 7 year vet.

The QB regardless of who it was would be brought along the same.

There's the big difference here, you believe Carroll when he says stuff like this to mitigate his rookie's shortcomings. Did Green Bay restrict Flynn's playbook when he threw for five TD's and 600 yards?

Flynn's a veteran QB who learned the playbook back in March and April, I don't believe for a second that he'd have the same restrictions and conservative plays called as Wilson does.

We can debate all day whether Flynn = more wins due to poor WR play and offensive line protection. That's fine, but don't tell me he'd be restricted as much as Wilson is, that's just flat out BS.

Wilson knew the playbook DAY 1 of rookie mini camp. Wilson played in a similar system for 3 years at NC State.... actually played in the games and had to make the calls. Don't tell me he doesn't know the playbook....thats BS on your part.

The issue is you "believe" things that have been said not to be true. So should you be believed or should Pete/JS be believed? I side with the experts. If you want to say "BS" or you want to ignore what is said by PC/JS.... then arguments with you are pointless. You ignore facts and what has been said. So keep making up what you want and believing it or deal in reality. If you want to debate with me...debate w/ facts.....

 

[Sarlacc83]

Oh, and Sgt Lgt, another thing:

Pete restricted the playbook for Matt Hasselbeck, further rendering your point about Flynn irrelevant.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

. actually played in the games and had to make the calls. Don't tell me he doesn't know the playbook....thats BS on your part. .....

I never said Wilson doesn't know the playbook, he's a fast learner, I'm sure he does. This is about trust. Carroll right now doesn't trust Wilson to make the right decisions and throws because he's not adept at reading defenses yet. THAT'S where the restrictions comes in.

Btw, I do side with the experts......of which most I've heard and read were and still are on the side that Flynn should have been named the starter and Wilson brought along slowly and put in if Flynn struggled. Even the homer radio hosts and local beat writers around here agree.

 

[ImTheScientist]

. actually played in the games and had to make the calls. Don't tell me he doesn't know the playbook....thats BS on your part. .....

I never said Wilson doesn't know the playbook, he's a fast learner, I'm sure he does. This is about trust. Carroll right now doesn't trust Wilson to make the right decisions and throws because he's not adept at reading defenses yet. THAT'S where the restrictions comes in.

Btw, I do side with the experts......of which most I've heard and read were and still are on the side that Flynn should have been named the starter and Wilson brought along slowly and put in if Flynn struggled. Even the homer radio hosts and local beat writers around here agree.

1) Restrictions would come in regardless of QB. Hass and Tjax were both restricted the first half of their seasons.

2) The experts are who? PC/JS? or journalists? In my mind PC/JS are the experts, they see them play every day.

3) National/Local radio & beat writers are not really a trusted source in my mind. They're job is to report, unfortunately they interject their opinions anymore versus just reporting which tends to affect the way people see things. Radio hosts & beat writers are not experts. Often times I find internet message board guy more helpful than the media.

4) When you said "Flynn's a veteran QB who learned the playbook back in March and April, I don't believe for a second that he'd have the same restrictions and conservative plays called as Wilson does." I took it as...Wilson doesn't know the playbook and is being restricted....sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[hawker84]

. actually played in the games and had to make the calls. Don't tell me he doesn't know the playbook....thats BS on your part. .....

I never said Wilson doesn't know the playbook, he's a fast learner, I'm sure he does. This is about trust. Carroll right now doesn't trust Wilson to make the right decisions and throws because he's not adept at reading defenses yet. THAT'S where the restrictions comes in.

Btw, I do side with the experts......of which most I've heard and read were and still are on the side that Flynn should have been named the starter and Wilson brought along slowly and put in if Flynn struggled. Even the homer radio hosts and local beat writers around here agree.

you're basing your argument on zero facts other than the playbook wasn't restricted for him in GB, ( I'm assuming that to be a fact , i really don't know).. but i would hope they wouldn't, he was there for what 5,6 years... i would think he'd know their offense by then... and the only local radio host i would trust expert wise would be Brock, and i believe he said wilson was the better choice, correct me if i'm wrong.. your whole claim is , he's been in the league longer, therefore he's more experienced in reading defenses.. not necessarily true, big difference being on the bench and being on the field....

 

[Russ Willstrong]

. actually played in the games and had to make the calls. Don't tell me he doesn't know the playbook....thats BS on your part. .....

I never said Wilson doesn't know the playbook, he's a fast learner, I'm sure he does. This is about trust. Carroll right now doesn't trust Wilson to make the right decisions and throws because he's not adept at reading defenses yet. THAT'S where the restrictions comes in.

Btw, I do side with the experts......of which most I've heard and read were and still are on the side that Flynn should have been named the starter and Wilson brought along slowly and put in if Flynn struggled. Even the homer radio hosts and local beat writers around here agree.

Wow, is that what PC told you personally. If so then why even start Wilson when he doesn't trust him? Stop setting up straw men. Your arguments are lame and unproven.

 

[Happypuppy]

I will be happy if they call more slants. Wilson has the arm to throw them and I think it would really open up the mid field. That is the sort of Evolution I want to see

 

[dunceface]

I'm getting sick of the Wilson can't do it threads. For the love of God the kid threw 1 bad pass in the game against SF: a deep int. He put the ball right on the money to Turbin (dropped) put it in a tight window and right on the money to Moore (dropped), put it where Edwards could have made a play for a TD (dropped for TD), to Rice (dropped), Lynch (dropped) and Tate on several occasions (dropped). He threw 2 passes away when getting chased (good decisions). If these balls are caught and we win, would anyone question our ROOKIE QB.

I remember last year when TJ was sucking (which I don't think Wilson is this year) and everyone was complaining to put in Whitehearst. He gets in and lays and egg. Guess the coachs know what's up. They see the guys in practice, in meeting, etc every single day. PC isn't afraid to change things up and puts the best players on the field. Wilson is just better that Flynn, he must be and it is evident by Flynn not starting.

And what Hawks said above.

[/allQBthreadsforever]

 

[Zebulon Dak]

. actually played in the games and had to make the calls. Don't tell me he doesn't know the playbook....thats BS on your part. .....

I never said Wilson doesn't know the playbook, he's a fast learner, I'm sure he does. This is about trust. Carroll right now doesn't trust Wilson to make the right decisions and throws because he's not adept at reading defenses yet. THAT'S where the restrictions comes in.

Btw, I do side with the experts......of which most I've heard and read were and still are on the side that Flynn should have been named the starter and Wilson brought along slowly and put in if Flynn struggled. Even the homer radio hosts and local beat writers around here agree.

We have absolutely ZERO evidence that ANYTHING would be ANY DIFFERENT, better or worse, with Flynn as the starter. None. Zero. If you actually watched the game he threw for those "600" yards (bahaha!) you'd know that it was mostly short routes where the receiver made the plays after he caught the ball. It's not like he made a bunch of brilliant throws.

Right now, I'm glad we have Flynn because he's probably an OK enough QB to back up RW, who right now is OK enough to keep us in games and put us in a position to compete for the win, or just plain win them. If Coach ever decides that MF gives us a better chance to win than RW and decides to start him instead then I will fully have his back 100%. Until then, Russell is my man.

 

[manders2600]

I will be happy if they call more slants. Wilson has the arm to throw them and I think it would really open up the mid field. That is the sort of Evolution I want to see

Quick slants require a 3-step drop and either a very clear passing lane or the ability to see over the line.

 

[Russ Willstrong]

Yes, quick slants and short routes are more apt to get batted but it doesn't matter if you're 6'4 or 5'11 because the release is more important than height. Quick slants are also easier to bait and get picked by defenses on obvious downs.

Again the height issue: Wilson has thrown many quick slants and quick outs behind a TALLER offensive line than the Hawks. His footwork is very good and he also has the quick release to get them out on time. Very few of his passes in college have been batted even his timing routes.

It's good to question why we haven't seen more quick throws or timing routes. Is Wilson not pulling the trigger on these plays because he's afraid to throw a pick? Is it because of the limited reps between the QB and his receivers? Is it because of the physical defenses we've faced who've been able to jam our receivers on obvious passing downs? Is it the conservative playcalling that seems to get us down in the count and in 3rd-and-long (obvious passing situations) that make these short passes irrelevant?