Offensive Coordinator replacement for 2016

hawkfan68

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candybars":1mjlmlv4 said:
hawkfan68":1mjlmlv4 said:
Look how the Bills are using Harvin. He's doing much better as a receiver there.

Harvin has fewer receptions and about 90 yards more with Buffalo than he did with Seattle through the same number of games. I would hardly call that much better.

yes but he's averaging 11.5 ypc in the Bills offense versus 6.0 ypc as he was with the Seahawks. Thus my point of Harvin being utilized much better in the Bills offense.
http://www.nfl.com/player/percyharvin/80425/careerstats
 

mrt144

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DavidSeven":30czai8r said:
Otherwise, Seattle would've been better served going with the alternative approach. If your $22M QB needs to be coddled as much as a $3M QB, meaning he needs an excellent playcaller to be effective, you cannot justify paying that premium.

I'd argue that the Hawks are on the other side of the spectrum here: Everything has been so spartan and reliant on Lynch and Wilson working in tandem to get it done that very little has been applied to improving every other aspect of the offense including being adaptive to deficiencies or new parts.

If letting almost all your WR and OL talent sign with other teams after their rookie contract and then trying to integrate an outsider to a completely different system isn't spartan, then certainly we'll never agree on what being coddled is. I'd be elated to see a change in some of the play calling as a first step and then work from there because as my previous post said - RW is here for a while, he can improve but there are ways to get more out of your players than talent allows and I'm dubious that adaptation is happening with any urgency.

The stats don't hint at RW being obviously deficient as a passer in some key regard, rather he's reluctant and puts a lot on the playmaking onus on himself. There are so many small fires contributing to this blaze though that I'd love to see if improvements in other areas will lead to improvements with RW.
 

Siouxhawk

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mrt144":jlhzxwip said:
DavidSeven":jlhzxwip said:
Otherwise, Seattle would've been better served going with the alternative approach. If your $22M QB needs to be coddled as much as a $3M QB, meaning he needs an excellent playcaller to be effective, you cannot justify paying that premium.

I'd argue that the Hawks are on the other side of the spectrum here: Everything has been so spartan and reliant on Lynch and Wilson working in tandem to get it done that very little has been applied to improving every other aspect of the offense including being adaptive to deficiencies or new parts.

If letting almost all your WR and OL talent sign with other teams after their rookie contract and then trying to integrate an outsider to a completely different system isn't spartan, then certainly we'll never agree on what being coddled is. I'd be elated to see a change in some of the play calling as a first step and then work from there because as my previous post said - RW is here for a while, he can improve but there are ways to get more out of your players than talent allows and I'm dubious that adaptation is happening with any urgency.

The stats don't hint at RW being obviously deficient as a passer in some key regard, rather he's reluctant and puts a lot on the playmaking onus on himself. There are so many small fires contributing to this blaze though that I'd love to see if improvements in other areas will lead to improvements with RW.
All of the improvement you speak of will take care of itself with the coming of age of the offensive line. When Russell isn't forced to go into scramble mode the moment the football hits his hands from the shotgun, he's adept at picking apart defenses.
 

rideaducati

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Siouxhawk":1bbb1wyp said:
MontanaHawk05":1bbb1wyp said:
DavidSeven":1bbb1wyp said:
That said, if the offense is consistently performing poorly and that is proven by the numbers, then ultimately the OC takes the heat for that. Just like a mid-level manager takes the heat for a failing division he oversees. But no one has statistical support for this over Bevell's tenure. It's all "gut feeling" that the offense could do better than the top-10 standing it's consistently found itself in over the last three years, despite having a quarterback who anyone can see is somewhat limited and having almost no resources devoted anywhere on this offense.

It's not a "gut feeling" that Bevell is calling play-action on fourth down, or deep sideline bombs on 3rd and long, or FBs in motion as wide receivers, or Graham blocking on crucial 3rd downs. There are clear instances of dumb playcalls where Bevell is trying so hard to be unpredictable that he just gets dumb.

This isn't like the mid-level manager taking heat over stats, it's more like a mid-level manager taking heat because he got witnessed verbally abusing employees or putting people on projects they're terrible at.

And as Kearly said...even if you can ignore all that stuff, Russell Wilson needs better than an average OC. He probably needs one of the league's best, someone with real creativity.
Bevell is the best in the league at working with Russell. If you've ever noticed the sideline shots, there's a constant teaching and learning dialogue going on.
And here's something to consider for those latching onto the "play calls lack creativity" narrative -- you realize these play calls aren't created by Bevell in a vacuum. The entire coaching staff scripts and practices them, with Pete very much a part of the process. As a defensive expert, don't you think Pete would detect the blinking red lights many of you detractors claim to see that the play schemes are so simple that opposing defensive coordinators can foil with ease?
No way.
You know something ironic though? I hope you're right. Then we'll have opposing defenses right where we want them and when they think we're going to ZIG, we'll ZAG and leave them face-planted.

How the hell can we know that Bevell is the best in the league at working with Russell? He is the ONLY guy that ever has worked with Russell and I for one would like to find out if Russell would be better served by working with someone else. When I see Bevell and Russell together on the sideline, I believe it to be Russell PLEADING to run certain plays that he thinks will work with his best options not being the decoys.
 

Siouxhawk

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rideaducati":17aoeiu8 said:
Siouxhawk":17aoeiu8 said:
MontanaHawk05":17aoeiu8 said:
DavidSeven":17aoeiu8 said:
That said, if the offense is consistently performing poorly and that is proven by the numbers, then ultimately the OC takes the heat for that. Just like a mid-level manager takes the heat for a failing division he oversees. But no one has statistical support for this over Bevell's tenure. It's all "gut feeling" that the offense could do better than the top-10 standing it's consistently found itself in over the last three years, despite having a quarterback who anyone can see is somewhat limited and having almost no resources devoted anywhere on this offense.

It's not a "gut feeling" that Bevell is calling play-action on fourth down, or deep sideline bombs on 3rd and long, or FBs in motion as wide receivers, or Graham blocking on crucial 3rd downs. There are clear instances of dumb playcalls where Bevell is trying so hard to be unpredictable that he just gets dumb.

This isn't like the mid-level manager taking heat over stats, it's more like a mid-level manager taking heat because he got witnessed verbally abusing employees or putting people on projects they're terrible at.

And as Kearly said...even if you can ignore all that stuff, Russell Wilson needs better than an average OC. He probably needs one of the league's best, someone with real creativity.
Bevell is the best in the league at working with Russell. If you've ever noticed the sideline shots, there's a constant teaching and learning dialogue going on.
And here's something to consider for those latching onto the "play calls lack creativity" narrative -- you realize these play calls aren't created by Bevell in a vacuum. The entire coaching staff scripts and practices them, with Pete very much a part of the process. As a defensive expert, don't you think Pete would detect the blinking red lights many of you detractors claim to see that the play schemes are so simple that opposing defensive coordinators can foil with ease?
No way.
You know something ironic though? I hope you're right. Then we'll have opposing defenses right where we want them and when they think we're going to ZIG, we'll ZAG and leave them face-planted.

How the hell can we know that Bevell is the best in the league at working with Russell? He is the ONLY guy that ever has worked with Russell and I for one would like to find out if Russell would be better served by working with someone else. When I see Bevell and Russell together on the sideline, I believe it to be Russell PLEADING to run certain plays that he thinks will work with his best options not being the decoys.
I highly doubt it's that. They're just using the surface to gauge defensive tendencies and scheme offensive sets. You have your opinion and I have mine that Bev is the best at working with Russ. Thankfully, Pete shares that opinion.
 

massari

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SacHawk2.0":1k5uu9ji said:

I want Jon Gruden to be the HC once Carroll retires so getting his bro would be a step in the right direction.
 

Fade

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Jon Gruden is ESPN's highest paid employee. I don't see him leaving that job ever.
 

massari

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Fade":dj0qbzan said:
Jon Gruden is ESPN's highest paid employee. I don't see him leaving that job ever.

If he gets the itch to coach again, he'd probably make double the amount of money being a HC than he makes from TV currently.

So it seems there's a decent chance unless a TV company is willing to get in a bidding war with an NFL franchise.
 

HansGruber

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DavidSeven":5l9yz5ql said:
mrt144":5l9yz5ql said:
DavidSeven":5l9yz5ql said:
MontanaHawk05":5l9yz5ql said:
It's not a "gut feeling" that Bevell is calling play-action on fourth down, or deep sideline bombs on 3rd and short, or FBs in motion as wide receivers, or Graham blocking on crucial 3rd downs. There are clear instances of dumb playcalls where Bevell is trying so hard to be unpredictable that he just gets dumb.

This isn't like the mid-level manager taking heat over stats, it's more like a mid-level manager taking heat because he got witnessed verbally abusing employees or putting people on projects they're terrible at.

And as Kearly said...even if you can ignore all that stuff, Russell Wilson needs better than an average OC. He probably needs one of the league's best, someone with real creativity.

P.S. If Russ needs a better-than-average OC to be effective, why did we hand him $88M? Cam Newton is carrying his team on his back right now, and Carolina definitely isn't doing it by out-coaching anyone on offense. At some point, a QB who's making 20x the salary of his OC needs to take ownership of the offense.

Because the size and duration of a contract aren't absolutely tied to intrinsic forward looking performance levels. The contract sausage takes into account market value - something fundamentally dislocated from forward looking performance based on QB talent scarcity. It also takes into account the opportunity cost of acquiring a new QB talent and integrating them into your system.

Because you give RW a large contract doesn't mean you can reasonably expect him to perform like Rodgers or Brady. Well maybe you CAN expect it but disappointment looms large with that expectation.

Pricing in the NFL is wacky but I just seem all the "expects" and "needs" and I wonder.

What does Cam Newton have to show for carrying his team right now? Nothing worth celebrating.

I'm not talking about expecting a huge jump in forward looking performance levels. I'm talking about performing at a level that is commensurate or exceeds the value that could be obtained by using the same resources on alternatives. For example, Seattle could have spent $15M on its OL, on attracting a "elite" playcaller, and spent the rest to sign a QB like Josh McCown or Ryan Fitzpatrick. Whether or not you think this alternative approach provides the same value or whether you think Wilson falls into the category of "scarce great QBs" is your own value judgment.

Getting excellent performance from Wilson during his rookie deal was a windfall resulting partly from the structure of the CBA. The only question back then was whether or not he was worth the 3rd round pick, which he obviously was. His current salary is the first to incorporate true economic/market realities. And now the expectation is that he continues to perform at a level that matches these new economic terms, because alternative approaches were available.

It isn't accurate to say anyone is expecting Wilson to play 20x better than he did under his rookie deal. I think everyone recognizes we obtained a windfall during that stretch and he outplayed the resources expended significantly. However, that is the past. The reality now is that he is making $22M/year, and the expectation is that the team benefits at least as much as it would have if it spent the money elsewhere. To do that, he must perform individually at a level that is equal to what a less expensive QB could do with more expensive player/coaching talent around him. Otherwise, Seattle would've been better served going with the alternative approach. If your $22M QB needs to be coddled as much as a $3M QB, meaning he needs an excellent playcaller to be effective, you cannot justify paying that premium.

Dallas has arguably the best OL in the NFL. And they can't do jack-diddly-squat with Wheeden. That offense is horrible. They went from Superbowl contender to fighting for the best draft pick, overnight.

Second, point out some teams that have had a great OL and a mediocre QB that's managed to win a Superbowl in the last 20-30 years. I can't think of any. The NYG would come close, but I still wouldn't call Manning "mediocre". He's not great, but he's "ok to good".
 
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HansGruber":mq7q3acb said:
Dallas has arguably the best OL in the NFL. And they can't do jack-diddly-squat with Wheeden. That offense is horrible. They went from Superbowl contender to fighting for the best draft pick, overnight.

As bad as its been they're only a game out. If they get Romo and Dez back and don't fall too far back in the standings they will be a contender still.
 
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Hasselbeck

Hasselbeck

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candybars":3kf3e14b said:
hawkfan68":3kf3e14b said:
Look how the Bills are using Harvin. He's doing much better as a receiver there.

Harvin has fewer receptions and about 90 yards more with Buffalo than he did with Seattle through the same number of games. I would hardly call that much better.

Fewer receptions tells me they aren't force feeding him the ball on bubble screens because they have no idea how to incorporate a route tree.
 

rideaducati

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After watching a bit more, I still think the offensive problems are the O-line, of coarse, personnel and the QBs reluctance to throw the damn ball, in that order. Playcalling is okay and there ARE guys getting open with the exception of Kearse. Looking at most of Russell's passes, he doesn't throw the ball unless his receiver is wide open and I mean WIDE OPEN. If his receiver has a guy beaten well enough to get a ball into him, but the defender is within a couple yards, Russell looks for another guy to be WIDE OPEN and ends up holding the ball too long. Always looking for "something better" is Russell's main problem and he is missing the easy yardage. That isn't Bevell's fault.
 

MontanaHawk05

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DavidSeven":2pfikur5 said:
MontanaHawk05":2pfikur5 said:
It's not a "gut feeling" that Bevell is calling play-action on fourth down, or deep sideline bombs on 3rd and short, or FBs in motion as wide receivers, or Graham blocking on crucial 3rd downs. There are clear instances of dumb playcalls where Bevell is trying so hard to be unpredictable that he just gets dumb.

This isn't like the mid-level manager taking heat over stats, it's more like a mid-level manager taking heat because he got witnessed verbally abusing employees or putting people on projects they're terrible at.

And as Kearly said...even if you can ignore all that stuff, Russell Wilson needs better than an average OC. He probably needs one of the league's best, someone with real creativity.

At the end of the day, you are judged by the overall performance, which is measured in statistical performance and wins. Both are areas that our offense has excelled in over the last three years.

We've excelled because Russell Wilson can improvise against fourth-quarter defenses exhausted by our run game. Most Wilson scrambles are a sign that the play has broken down. Now I acknowledge that a LOT of plays break down in the NFL, more than most people realize; the five-seconds-of-protection accomplishments pulled off regularly by Dallas' offensive line are actually broken plays themselves, pushed far beyond whatever the OC originally intended. But Seattle, I feel, has a much higher lucky-to-intentional ratio than even most teams thanks to Wilson. It's not a comfortable situation for a lot of us, and the question of whether it's sustainable for more than a couple seasons is still an open question.

I don't mean to make this personal, because I sense you're a smarter and more level-headed guy than most, but you've almost flat-out admitted that you're being contrarian. I agree that scapegoat mentality is annoying and there have been times I pushed back against it, too. One such time was the anti-Ruskell sentiment after 2008. One bad season was too early to be calling for his head like some were, and there were too many other factors involved. So I sat back and waited another season. It turns out that sometimes, mobs are right. Ruskell's drafting tactics just weren't cutting the mustard, and his staffing decisions proved to be fatal. (That was the downfall of John Morgan over at Fieldgulls. He let his contempt for common fan narratives drive him consistently in the opposite direction, and he ended up a Ruskell apologist without realizing it.)

As far as reasons for seemingly dumb play calls...do you remember the game after the Beastquake? The 2010 divisional-round road game at Chicago, Hasselbeck's last game as a Seahawk? You might recall that we went down early after a big 3rd down TD play to their tight end (I think Greg Olsen, don't remember). Most fans reflexively blamed the first defender they saw trailing the TE in covering, in this case Lawyer Milloy, and just assumed he'd lost too much speed to be covering guys down the seam. Put him out to pasture and all that.

In reality (and most fans still don't realize this), the TD happened because Milloy had been caught off-guard by a ridiculous play-call, courtesy of mad scientist OC Mike Martz. It had been 3rd and 5. You don't call seam bombs on 3rd and 5, even if the safety does abandon the deep middle. It's just a low-percentage play, and there are literally dozens of higher-percentage plays that you could run to pick up the first. High risk, high reward. In this case, it worked because Cutler made an ace throw. Martz gambled that Milloy would be caught flat-footed just long enough by a call he never expected, and it paid off. But had it failed, Martz would have been crucified for the call, and rightfully so.

I suspect Bevell's bizarro play calls are of a similar vein. He's hoping to catch his opponents off guard with unconventional stuff. In other words, "getting cute". Except that Martz was better at cute than Bevell, and working with more talent at WR, TE, and OL. I also suspect that much of it is Pete's greed for the big play, since a 50-yard bomb is statistically equivalent to a handful of punts. "Run-first offense" is often just code for play action.

So I don't just appeal to "they know what they're doing" when it comes to NFL staffing decisions, especially after Ruskell, Mora, and Knapp. A lot of coaches out there are in over their head. There's a subtle narrative of players chafing under Bevell that goes all the way back to his days in Minnesota. We've also got throughlines of our playbook being too well-known, DBs running our WR's routes for them, and Seattle players not being used to their strengths. I agree that Wilson and the OL share part of the blame, as well as an almost completely unremarkable WR corps. But the Bevell narratives are starting to harden their own ruts - they're consistent and harder to avoid with each week.

I don't think Bevell is horrible. But I think he's predictable at the wrong times, unpredictable at the wrong times, too simplistic, too slow to adjust, and not a good fit for a unique QB like Wilson. And if we want to avoid a decade of Colts-like playoff flirtations, it might be time to see if we can upgrade.
 

massari

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chris98251":3d9x1my6 said:
6 million plus a year at ESPN, he isn't leaving.

Google's telling me 4M annually, Chris.

Either way, if he gets the itch to coach again while making 8M a year like Payton/Carroll, then I don't see how you can say "he isn't leaving".
 

Siouxhawk

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Grahamhawker":2actw8lv said:
hgwellz12":2actw8lv said:
hburn21":2actw8lv said:
I honestly think Sark will end up here

Instant upgrade.


^^
I'd take a drunk OC over a simply brain-dead one pretty much every time.
Considering your post, I can see why a lack of sobriety would appeal to you.
 

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