Offensive coordinator candidates for 2024

[mistaowen]

To my novice football eyes, I see a smart coordinator who's very adept at all the McVay/Shanahan coaching tree layered sequential deceptive schemes and playcall.............but who struggles with the adjustment parts of the game. Both in-game/in real time and halftime adjustments.

Why else does our early game scripted playcalling usually look really good until the other team adjusts, and then the offense turns to crap for the rest of quarters and even entire games?

There's a disconnect and deficiency with Waldron and Pete trying to adjust. Which is arguably 75% of playcalling and scheming. It's a chess match, and our offensive coaches and players are losing the adjustment chess match. Badly most games.

I genuinely think he's a great behind the scenes offensive mind but may not be ready for the OC role. IIRC McVay spoke glowingly of him regarding weekly game prep and design for their passing game. So he's a smart guy who seemingly cannot (yet?) adapt and counter what the defense does mid-game, which as you said is what makes great OC's. Shanahan and McVay obviously have great opening game scripts, where they separate from others is how they adjust throughout to counter what the other team does. This team runs out of steam almost immediately following their opening 15 or so plays and gets zero rhythm until the defense goes prevent.

This isn't inherent to the NFL, in any profession people get promoted and show they really aren't prepared or their skillset doesn't translate well at the next job tier. It may very well be Waldron is best suited as a week to week planner and less involved with actual game flow. Given what Pete has said over his career (and interviews with former players), he really tries to not inject himself in the day-to-day functions for his coordinators until it is needed, which it sounds like is actually happening now. So I would guess unless things turn around QUICKLY, Waldron will be looking for work next year.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I do think you’re right, some of it is situationally for sure. But looking at the passing charts there are games with zero attempts to that part of the field and even during weeks we’ve played fairly well so I don’t think it’s all of it. It just fits too perfectly with what Pete has preached as his way to play offense. I also think Pete is so anti turnover(and that’s not a bad thing) that he could potentially overreact in a sense to it, especially at 70+ years old.

It just doesn’t make sense to carry over almost zero of the Rams style offense which it currently appears to be the case.

So I see your point that it doesn’t make sense that Pete would hinder his play caller but when you weigh that with his style of offense and what he preaches I really don’t see the alternative as being more feasible.

The Shanahan/McVay scheme is complex, layered and it's foundation is 100% based in sequential playcalling.

Meaning dozens and dozens of EXACT same looking formations and motions, but off that are dozens and dozens of different route trees, etc with lots of options for the QB pre and post snap.

I mean, we know it well right? We've been watching it kick our ass for a decade now, as recent as Thanksgiving watching the Niners RB's, TE's and receivers run free all over the field.

So that's the sticking point. Waldron, Pete and Geno are stuck in the starting gate never getting to 80% of the sequential route concepts/playcalls because our early down looks and plays are not successful enough to get defenses guessing and uncomfortable to even open up the rest of the scripted playcalls.

So Pete's fault? Not sure how any of this is Pete's fault, beyond he's the dude who hired the dude who can't get the offense rolling enough to be more consistently successful and explosive.......and he's the dude who put all his belief in a QB who isn't doing a good job of running the offense.

 

[Ozzy]

The Shanahan/McVay scheme is complex, layered and it's foundation is 100% based in sequential playcalling.

Meaning dozens and dozens of EXACT same looking formations and motions, but off that are dozens and dozens of different route trees, etc with lots of options for the QB pre and post snap.

I mean, we know it well right? We've been watching it kick our ass for a decade now, as recent as Thanksgiving watching the Niners RB's, TE's and receivers run free all over the field.

So that's the sticking point. Waldron, Pete and Geno are stuck in the starting gate never getting to 80% of the sequential route concepts/playcalls because our early down looks and plays are not successful enough to get defenses guessing and uncomfortable to even open up the rest of the scripted playcalls.

So Pete's fault? Not sure how any of this is Pete's fault, beyond he's the dude who hired the dude who can't get the offense rolling enough to be more consistently successful and explosive.......and he's the dude who put all his belief in a QB who isn't doing a good job of running the offense.

You may very well be right and I could be overthinking it. But when you look up the areas of the field Rams offenses and what we did before Geno got cold last year and it was the middle of the field a ton. I guess that's my hang up. It's all guesswork and I'm throwing darts but combine the fact Rams love that area of the field, Pete hates it and think it leads to turnovers and my guess is there is at least some direction from Pete to avoid the higher percentage turnover area.....the middle of the field.

anyway I like your thoughts on this even if we don't fully align....something to think about for sure.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

You may very well be right and I could be overthinking it. But when you look up the areas of the field Rams offenses and what we did before Geno got cold last year and it was the middle of the field a ton. I guess that's my hang up. It's all guesswork and I'm throwing darts but combine the fact Rams love that area of the field, Pete hates it and think it leads to turnovers and my guess is there is at least some direction from Pete to avoid the higher percentage turnover area.....the middle of the field.

anyway I like your thoughts on this even if we don't fully align....something to think about for sure.

The middle of the field isn't open anymore because good teams with smart coordinators and head coaches had an entire year of game tape to scheme and take away all the routes you're talking about.

Two high safety shell with 8-9 players in the box crowding the middle of the field forcing us to throw the ball outside.

How do you beat that? Lots and lots of motion trying to spread those defenders out to run the ball successfully opening up play action to take deep shots downfield.

But again, not enough success in execution or protection to make any of this successful and consistent enough to get defenses out of the shell.

 

[Ozzy]

The middle of the field isn't open anymore because good teams with smart coordinators and head coaches had an entire year of game tape to scheme and take away all the routes you're talking about.

Two high safety shell with 8-9 players in the box crowding the middle of the field forcing us to throw the ball outside.

How do you beat that? Lots and lots of motion trying to spread those defenders out to run the ball successfully opening up play action to take deep shots downfield.

But again, not enough success in execution or protection to make any of this successful and consistent enough to get defenses out of the shell.

It's a valid point. I see some teams scheming their way through it though like Miami, The Rams still do it, KC. You just have to have a lot of pre snap motion like you said and get a little creative.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

It's a valid point. I see some teams scheming their way through it though like Miami, The Rams still do it, KC. You just have to have a lot of pre snap motion like you said and get a little creative.

You also can't perpetually put yourself in 2nd and 3rd and long by committing dumb procedural penalties and take sacks cutting your playbook in half for much of the game.

So yeah, that's ALL on Pete for having such an undisciplined team that seems like it's in constant dysfunction and not coaching up your QB to throw the ball away, or even better yet...........get the damn ball on time and not hold onto it taking needless sacks.

That I absolutely agree with you on Pete.

 

[Ozzy]

You also can't perpetually put yourself in 2nd and 3rd and long by committing dumb procedural penalties and take sacks cutting your playbook in half for much of the game.

So yeah, that's ALL on Pete for having such an undisciplined team that seems like it's in constant dysfunction and not coaching up your QB to throw the ball away, or even better yet...........get the damn ball on time and not hold onto it taking needless sacks.

That I absolutely agree with you on Pete.

The penalty issue is maddening because its been ongoing for ever now.

 

[GemCity]

I do think you’re right, some of it is situationally for sure. But looking at the passing charts there are games with zero attempts to that part of the field and even during weeks we’ve played fairly well so I don’t think it’s all of it. It just fits too perfectly with what Pete has preached as his way to play offense. I also think Pete is so anti turnover(and that’s not a bad thing) that he could potentially overreact in a sense to it, especially at 70+ years old.

It just doesn’t make sense to carry over almost zero of the Rams style offense which it currently appears to be the case.

So I see your point that it doesn’t make sense that Pete would hinder his play caller but when you weigh that with his style of offense and what he preaches I really don’t see the alternative as being more feasible.

I think you’re spot on.

 

[Ozzy]

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Here is a good video and the start talks about who’s at fault for why the offense seems to throw only out routes and they make a compelling case supporting my theory that’s it’s Pete who’s meddling and not Geno or Waldron for why certain routes are being called.

 

[Maelstrom787]

I'd just like to make a request that this thread stay minorly on track despite the merge-ins. Obviously, topics evolve, but I do want to highlight potential candidates rather than just debating Waldron. Our offensive coordinator is a hot topic right now and a ton of us are outspoken on him, but I'd really like to focus on seeing what guys might be considered in the likely event that we look for a new one. It's interesting to debate/discuss their backgrounds, their likelihood of coming here, their fit with the organization, and their individual philosophies.

If anyone else has a reasonable candidate for 2024, I'd love to see who you've got.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Does it really matter who the OC is? At this point?

Would it change the outcome? Im skeptical.
We don't have the horses, and even if we did - our tactics and strategy are built to beat the weaker teams not the stronger ones.

 

[Ozzy]

I think it was a natural progression because the question hinges on if Waldron shoud be the OC and it assumes Waldron is mostly at fault.

I really like Ben Johnson but he probably is going to get a head coaching opportunity. It's really hard to identify offensive coordinators because they tend to come from lower positions. Bienemy as he's probably getting fired in Washington when Rivera does comes to mind? He's directing an offense with a lower level QB and the team is a sinking ship yet he's having some success.

Mcdaniels is a terrible head coach but has been a good play caller. He brought out the best in Jacobs and that could entice Pete.

I think Pete would like Luke Getsy as well because of his success with running the football.

Kellen Moore makes sense as a local kid and a decent chance Chargers fire that staff.

I'm at a loss because Pete will want someone who will run under his vision of an offense so getting a high level guy probably isn't going to happen. Those guys want to go somewhere they can run their vision of an offense and not one that only throws at the line of scrimmage or 15 yard out routes and A/B gap handoffs.

 

[Ozzy]

Does it really matter who the OC is? At this point?

Would it change the outcome? Im skeptical.
We don't have the horses, and even if we did - our tactics and strategy are built to beat the weaker teams not the stronger ones.

the answer is no which is why the conversation nauturally got sidetracked.

 

[keasley45]

the answer is no which is why the conversation nauturally got sidetracked.

If the idiocy of the playcalling coming from Waldron isn't obvious, I don't know what is. He's a play designer. Not an in game strategist.

This is so far from taking 'deep shots because that's what Carroll likes. It's that even when we take a deep shot, it's dumb.

It's about being ranked 26th in rushing offense and 30th in attempts. That's 100% Waldron

It's about calling 5 passes on yiur fismrst 6 attempts against the niners when THE things we need to do I establish the run.

It's about not even utilizing the tools at yiur disposal effectively or giving your qb logical options in pattern.

KJ is mentioned it, Brock, Salk, Wyman and Bob... literally everyone can see tye stupidity of their offense and there's a question if someone better woukd make a difference?

Absolutely we'd be better. Shi+, I'd wager we be at least 2 games better if we had the guy Dallas has calling plays. He ran an offense that had an identity. He had an offense with balance. He called plays that made sense.

None of things can Waldron say he does consistently.

Everyone keeps pointing to how the offense is the same as it's always been... common denominator... and on and on. This seahawks offense was never known as one that was elite on early in games and them dropped off a cliff. Waldron can design great concepts that involve his guys and keep the D off balance because they are guessing. But as soon as the script is done and he's shot his shot, it's done.i don't know how you fix that in season without the light going on for him, him getting replaced, or Pete calling plays (which I don't know would be better).

But absolutely, the quality of play can be increased pretty dramatically by improving OC performance.

 

[keasley45]

As for who?

Mike Kafka - their O has struggled but they just don't have talent. Plus, he knows the run game.

Matt Campbell - Iowa state . Great culture builder and by all accounts, a leader. Could be a short term signal caller and long term HC candidate.

Brian Callahan - OC for Cincy. The fact that the Bengals are down and their window slowly closing might lead him to look elsewhere. The fact that we will be looking for a HC sooner than later might be enough to make this spot look greener than the one he's in.

Ben Johnson - Lions. Super intelligent xs and os guy.

 

[Ozzy]

As for who?

Mike Kafka - their O has struggled but they just don't have talent. Plus, he knows the run game.

Matt Campbell - Iowa state . Great culture builder and by all accounts, a leader. Could be a short term signal caller and long term HC candidate.

Brian Callahan - OC for Cincy. The fact that the Bengals are down and their window slowly closing might lead him to look elsewhere. The fact that we will be looking for a HC sooner than later might be enough to make this spot look greener than the one he's in.

Ben Johnson - Lions. Super intelligent xs and os guy.

Why would Cincinatti window be closing? Burrow is in his prime, Chase is just starting out and their skill position guys are loaded. You do make a decent point though as I go back through it about Pete possibly leaving soon. Could be something to entice people with?

I looked at current OC's but why would they want to leave what they're currently doing to come here? Unless they're let go I can't see this as a coveted spot. Part of that is a lack of a QB and even though you disagree I would be willing to bet money being the OC under Pete probably isn't viewed as high as many on here think it would be.

 

[hawkfan68]

This guy just became available today- Hue Jackson. Great OC but terrible HC. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hue_Jackson

 

[chris98251]

It's not our OC's, it's Pete, he blends a Bud Grant and Al Davis approach to offense, deep ball for space and to create a mental advantage when we win, also to open up underneath routes which we hardly use, but giving space for a run game to flourish is the biggest reason and control time of possession. Bud never trusted his QB's to win, he relied on them not to lose, Al was a bit different in that aspect. But they always had a dominant run game to go with a ball control passing attack with Biletnikoff and Casper, and over the top with Branch for years.

 

[keasley45]

Why would Cincinatti window be closing? Burrow is in his prime, Chase is just starting out and their skill position guys are loaded. You do make a decent point though as I go back through it about Pete possibly leaving soon. Could be something to entice people with?

I looked at current OC's but why would they want to leave what they're currently doing to come here? Unless they're let go I can't see this as a coveted spot. Part of that is a lack of a QB and even though you disagree I would be willing to bet money being the OC under Pete probably isn't viewed as high as many on here think it would be.

I'm less bullish on Cinci because they've been on the brink for a few years now and unless you're KC or NE with Brady, that's about how long teams hang in serious contention before parts begin to fall away. Burrow just got paid too. And although his cap hits don't really wind in until 2025, he's no longer on a cheap deal.

I don't disagree that a top OC would look sideways at coming here. But... I think if this season continues as it has, Pete will be on the hotseat. And if that's the case, the terms of his continuing may make the coordinator position a bit more flexible.

And, Pete, one way or another, may be out sooner that later. Any OC or DC brought in could be wooed with the prospect of being the first to be considered for the top spot. Waldron ain't that guy.

 

[RolandDeschain]

It's like hoping for a particular person to become Vice President...doesn't matter. Not under Pete Carroll, anyway. The next guy will just be another stooge with his hands tied behind his back; or in an ode to Pehawk, a rube.