MacDonald riding with Geno

[JayhawkMike]

Not much of a QB when you have to have the “right” OC AND the ”right” OLine and the “right” WRs and TEs AND the ”right” RBs. If everything is perfect you could slot most any PS player there and will succeed. And as an added bonus you don’t have to pay them $30m a year

 

[Subzero717]

I think your point is valid but its possible Geno isnt the talent you think he is either?

You need an elite QB to win. Look at the final 4 teams in the last 10 playoff cycles. Very, very few aren't elite guys. Here are the last 5 years:

Mahomes over Purdy
Mahomes over Hurts
Stafford over Burrow
Brady over Mahomes
Mahomes over Kaep
Brady over Goff (I think?)

Who isn't elite? I know you will say Purdy but Purdy by every metric used to defend Geno like on target throws, throws under pressure, QBR, Passer rating is putting up elite numbers. But for sake of argument lets say he's not every SB winner is elite the past 5 years Mahomes, Stafford, Brady. The losers in the SB is a pretty solid list too in Burrow, Mahomes, Hurts, Purdy and Kaep.

You really do need an elite QB to win a Super Bowl. You think Geno is elite and that's fine. Many don't and I think they have a reasonable case on that as well.

Maybe Seattles defense because best in the league, they get a couple of guards to fix the line and an OC that can fit the Macdonald system and get to a SB. I sure hope they can but it appears to be the only reasonable option right now.

Tell you what. drop Waldron and Dickerson, Grubb and Huff in any of those cities and see where their QBs come out.

It is beyond myopic to look at just the qb in comparing those teams and ignore the fact that you have an ALL TIME GREAT HC in Andy Reid calling plays in KC vs Shane Waldron or Ryan Grubb, neither of which are even in the NFL anymore. Seriously? If OC / playcalling wasn't critical to the function of an offense and performance of a QB, those positions wouldn't be the prime candidates for head coaching positions across the league. And we have been rolling with guys who cant even keep their job, let alone garner attention for a better post.

And you pull Burrow and Jackson into the convo, the latter of which is a multiple MVP winner and generational talent? Burrow is the only guy who is similarly strapped on offense, but has arguably the best player at his position to throw to (you dont hear debates about chase running wrong routes and being trade bate in part for the low ROI for the position he holds).

You dont need a generational talent at QB to win a SB. I mean, 3/4 of the guys on the teams you have mentioned havent won one.

But you do have guys like Matt Stafford and Jared Goff who was just a talents until they got hooked up with the right coordinator.

Buffalo, KC and Baltimore are without a doubt three of the best coached teams in the league, top to bottom with superstars throughout their staffs. We just fired our HC, 2 OC's, likely 2 O line coaches and THAT doesnt factor into the conversation as to how well aspects / players on the offense are performing?

You guys are funny

You missed the entire point.

 

[OneLofaTatupu]

And he's not in the same stratosphere as most of those guys. I hope to be wrong, but this guy isn't magically going to become elite, imo.

Geno is a generational talent.

 

[keasley45]

You missed the entire point.

What is the point?

 

[Lagartixa]

I dont get the constant drumbeat of negativity around what a qb cant do or wont do.

Every day on TV, talking-head mediots screech that the only way a team can possibly win a Super Bowl is by having one of the top two or three QBs in the league. You're hearing parrots who have been hearing this for years and are dutifully repeating it.

In the talking-head mediot (and mediot-parrot) view, a few QBs have magic winning powers, regardless of the team around them, and "all a team has to do" is get one of those magic QBs.

 

[keasley45]

I think your point is valid but its possible Geno isnt the talent you think he is either?

You need an elite QB to win. Look at the final 4 teams in the last 10 playoff cycles. Very, very few aren't elite guys. Here are the last 5 years:

Mahomes over Purdy
Mahomes over Hurts
Stafford over Burrow
Brady over Mahomes
Mahomes over Kaep
Brady over Goff (I think?)

Who isn't elite? I know you will say Purdy but Purdy by every metric used to defend Geno like on target throws, throws under pressure, QBR, Passer rating is putting up elite numbers. But for sake of argument lets say he's not every SB winner is elite the past 5 years Mahomes, Stafford, Brady. The losers in the SB is a pretty solid list too in Burrow, Mahomes, Hurts, Purdy and Kaep.

You really do need an elite QB to win a Super Bowl. You think Geno is elite and that's fine. Many don't and I think they have a reasonable case on that as well.

Maybe Seattles defense because best in the league, they get a couple of guards to fix the line and an OC that can fit the Macdonald system and get to a SB. I sure hope they can but it appears to be the only reasonable option right now.

You are claiming i am saying things i am not.

I didnt say Geno was elite but you also dont need an elite qb to win the SB.

Stafford won because his coach and his team was better. He had barely 200 yards, 2 tds and 2 picks in the 3rd qtr of the SB.

Their are only 2 other qbs on that list and again, one is playing for one of the best coaches of all time, and best play callers of all time.

How many Sbs do you think Mahomes woukd have if he had shane waldron or ryan grubb calling games for him? Answer? Zero

How many SB victories did 'elite' Stafford have before he played for McVay? Zero

How good was Goff before he was resurrected in Detroit? He flamed out under McVay because he was seen as NOT elite and then all of a sudden is with the staff at the Lions.

It is NOT just a matter of an elite qb elevating a team. The team and the staff around him matters.

KC has an elite staff
Detroit has an elite staff
The 9ers have an elite staff
The Rams have an elite staff

And none of those qbs have to deal with a hack like Shane Waldron or Ryan Grubb. They are working from the play books that the rest of the league tries to emulate.

They also had solid to great rushing attacks and good to great O lines.

Is Geno elite? He sure hasnt shown it yet as a complete passer. But he HAS been insanely accurate considering the quality of play calling, scheming and protection he has receieved.

So how about instead of constantly talking about what he CANT do, lets put a moratorium on the critique and debate about him until he too has the opportunity to throw for a coordinator who is at least good enough that folks outside of seattle want him to be their HC and befind a line that is top 15, and a rushing attack that strikes fear into opposing defenses, rather than eliciting jokes.

THEN we can compare apples to apples.

 

[keasley45]

Purdy - do you actually think he is 'Purdy' if he is playing for Waldron in Seattle? Not remotely. His career would be over by now had he spent his career here.

Sam Darnold? You saw who he was before he found coaches and a system.

Stafford - already mentioned him, but he was a remade, if not to an extreme degree as Darnold.

Goff - See Stafford.

Herbert has a chance now to be 'elite' but if he does win a championship, it will be in large part due to Harbaugh's coaching staff and system.

Burrow - same as Herbert. Of all of the current QBs, he is the one who truly stands out as he is fighting an uphill battle, but with a staff that was capable of taking the team to a championship a dew years ago. The dude is maybe the most gifted of all the other current 'elite' guys.
Why? Because he is doing the most with the least. And with arguably the best wr in the league, he STILL cant get his team to the playoffs.

The others are the beneficiaries of incredibly successful, stable, proven and trend setting systems.

We have had beyond debate one of the worst offensive programs in the league. No competent OC in 4 years. No competent O line coach in that same span.

Has led to:

One of the worst rushing attacks
One of the worst performing lines (notice i didnt say least talented)
One of the worst schemes in the league.
One of the least creative offenses in the league.
One of the most predictable schemes in the league.

And out of all that, Geno Smith is hands down the only bright spot, posting better than respectable number in multiple categories, and posting franchise and NFL bests in some.

A QB playing in the garbage that has been offensive leadership in this place shouldnt be posting 70%+ completions, and 80% adjusted completions. He shouldnt lead the league in number of least bad throws and be top 10 in deep ball accuracy.

An 'average' QB in the system(s) we have had here over 4 years wouldnt be capable of doing any of the above because 'average' qbs need great systems to find success, just as good and even great qbs need great systems to win Superbowls.

Let the FO fix the crap show that has been offensive leadership in Seattle since Schotty was pushed out after posting top 10 offenses for 3 consecutive seasons and lets have the convo about Geno in 12 months.

Just dont say 'nobody could have known he could have been so good' , or ' he just needed to wake up and stop throwing INts' or ' somebody finally was able to get to him and have him understand how to play the position'.

Every indication is that he can play it at a high level. No one can say how high until he is afforded the type of staff and support those ither guys who are held up as defining examples have been afforded.

That is 100% fact.

 

[Ozzy]

Stafford is elite and most scouts around the league view Stafford higher than fans do, he’s really talented. Just because a guy doesn’t have a great game in the SB doesn’t mean that it equates to not needing an elite guy.

Like I said earlier if you don’t have a consensus elite guy you better have a guy that is elite in that system like Purdy. If you removed Purdy’s name and just looked at his career stats it’s been incredible. He has years where he was the most productive and efficient QB in the entire league. We can debate if it’s him or the system but other guys weren’t remotely as good as he was in SF. Purdy is much better than Jimmy G for example.

Also let’s say for sake of argument Purdy isn’t. Heck go back 20 years and look at all 40 QBs in the SB about 90% of them will be elite.

So sure a unicorn situation comes along every once in a while situation wise but the vast majority are elite and much younger than Geno. One guy made it at 34 in Stafford(which is younger than Geno as he will be 35) and the other two are Brady and Manning. So multiple things are working against us here. Doesn’t mean Geno isn’t the best option for next year. I think they missed their chance.

 

[keasley45]

Stafford is elite and most scouts around the league view Stafford higher than fans do, he’s really talented. Just because a guy doesn’t have a great game in the SB doesn’t mean that it equates to not needing an elite guy.

Like I said earlier if you don’t have a consensus elite guy you better have a guy that is elite in that system like Purdy. If you removed Purdy’s name and just looked at his career stats it’s been incredible. He has years where he was the most productive and efficient QB in the entire league. We can debate if it’s him or the system but other guys weren’t remotely as good as he was in SF. Purdy is much better than Jimmy G for example.

Also let’s say for sake of argument Purdy isn’t. Heck go back 20 years and look at all 40 QBs in the SB about 90% of them will be elite.

So sure a unicorn situation comes along every once in a while situation wise but the vast majority are elite and much younger than Geno. One guy made it at 34 in Stafford(which is younger than Geno as he will be 35) and the other two are Brady and Manning. So multiple things are working against us here. Doesn’t mean Geno isn’t the best option for next year. I think they missed their chance.

The part i think you are missing that maybe i didnt make very well is the system makes the qb as much as the QB makes the system. Its not a conversation about unicorns as much as it is chickens and eggs - maybe not that exactly... just that you dont have one without the other.

Stafford was a nothing more than a nice talent before McVay.
Purdy... i doubt his game translates well outsude of SF. He has shown to not be remotely the same player when his line plays badly. He had a stretch this year where he led the league in INTs when his protection sucked.

Goff was cast aside and traded for marbles.

Darnold is now being talked about as the best Goff.

Steve Young was Matt Stafford before he landed in SF

Doug Williams was in the same purgatory as Steve until he got to Washington.

Has Russ been elite since he left Seattle?

Would Bo Nix being doing what he is if he was in Seattle?

This whole debate could just stop at Sam Darnold this year. Like Smith, he was left on the scrap heap, wasnt even supposed to be a starter, and now he is among the league's best and he has a far better supporting cast than Geno.

Arguably one of the best 3 or 4 qbs of all time in Arron Rodgers has 1 SB to his name.

Over the last 10 years, if you take Mahomes and Brady out of the picture the other SB winners were qb'd by guys who were 'reborn' in new systems with better coaches.

Stafford after Detroit

Nick Foles after failing in a few spots.

Peyton Manning in his old age (he rode that team to a SB)

Russell Wilson (doesnt qualify as reborn but he didnt carry the team) well before he was 'the guy'

And Eli Manning (also didnt carry his team), who is the poster boy for non-elite, but still champion.

Andy Reid has groomed QBs at every stop, taking McNab to great heights, Vick, and now Mahomes.

The Patriots had a system of developing a team that was so good it was coined the 'Patriot Way'.

And when Brady left NE, he hand picked TB because of how brilliant an offensive mind Bruce Arians was.

I will say it again. Saying what Geno cant do under better circumstances is as foolish as stating defintively what Goff would do over the rest of his career after he was traded to Detroit.

Or what Stafford would do.

Or Darnold now.

Give him a competent system and lets see how high he goes.

Great to see that folks outside the PNW dont view him as harshly as his own Russ hardened fans do.

Ranking each NFL team's primary starting quarterback from the 2024 regular season

 

[sutz]

Every day on TV, talking-head mediots screech that the only way a team can possibly win a Super Bowl is by having one of the top two or three QBs in the league. You're hearing parrots who have been hearing this for years and are dutifully repeating it.

In the talking-head mediot (and mediot-parrot) view, a few QBs have magic winning powers, regardless of the team around them, and "all a team has to do" is get one of those magic QBs.

Yep, and if that were true Marino would have had several rings.

 

[Ozzy]

The part i think you are missing that maybe i didnt make very well is the system makes the qb as much as the QB makes the system. Its not a conversation about unicorns as much as it is chickens and eggs - maybe not that exactly... just that you dont have one without the other.

Stafford was a nothing more than a nice talent before McVay.
Purdy... i doubt his game translates well outsude of SF. He has shown to not be remotely the same player when his line plays badly. He had a stretch this year where he led the league in INTs when his protection sucked.

Goff was cast aside and traded for marbles.

Darnold is now being talked about as the best Goff.

Steve Young was Matt Stafford before he landed in SF

Doug Williams was in the same purgatory as Steve until he got to Washington.

Has Russ been elite since he left Seattle?

Would Bo Nix being doing what he is if he was in Seattle?

This whole debate could just stop at Sam Darnold this year. Like Smith, he was left on the scrap heap, wasnt even supposed to be a starter, and now he is among the league's best and he has a far better supporting cast than Geno.

Arguably one of the best 3 or 4 qbs of all time in Arron Rodgers has 1 SB to his name.

Over the last 10 years, if you take Mahomes and Brady out of the picture the other SB winners were qb'd by guys who were 'reborn' in new systems with better coaches.

Stafford after Detroit

Nick Foles after failing in a few spots.

Peyton Manning in his old age (he rode that team to a SB)

Russell Wilson (doesnt qualify as reborn but he didnt carry the team) well before he was 'the guy'

And Eli Manning (also didnt carry his team), who is the poster boy for non-elite, but still champion.

Andy Reid has groomed QBs at every stop, taking McNab to great heights, Vick, and now Mahomes.

The Patriots had a system of developing a team that was so good it was coined the 'Patriot Way'.

And when Brady left NE, he hand picked TB because of how brilliant an offensive mind Bruce Arians was.

I will say it again. Saying what Geno cant do under better circumstances is as foolish as stating defintively what Goff would do over the rest of his career after he was traded to Detroit.

Or what Stafford would do.

Or Darnold now.

Give him a competent system and lets see how high he goes.

Great to see that folks outside the PNW dont view him as harshly as his own Russ hardened fans do.

Ranking each NFL team's primary starting quarterback from the 2024 regular season

It’s a fair point but Russ was elite for sure in Seattle. I don’t think it’s fair to judge a running QB in his mid 30’s and then say he’s not elite. Almost no one is at this stage.

As far as how the league ranks Geno? Execs put him at 20th so the league actually views Geno as slightly below average and that was before the is year. I will be curious to see how the league views him after this year. Doubt it would go up any.

I partially agree with you on system vs QB but either way even if your argument is true you might be able to have a good not elite QB BUT their production is elite aka Purdy.

 

[Ozzy]

I want to add I'm not against rolling another year with Geno. You won 10 games with no running game, an OC you fired, a pretty bad year overall by Geno and a defense that didn't take off until the second half. So its entirely possible a full year with what appears to be an elite defense, a new OC should help Geno and maybe you add a couple pieces to the line and you should win 12 games and be in the mix. It's probably your best option at this point.

But Geno is going to be going on 36 when guys tend to fall off a cliff and you have no plan for the future so it scares me. And Geno has to play better as Macdonald even alluded to. He has to cut down on his turnovers and as Daniel Jaremiah said a lot of Geno's picks that were on him were in crucial areas of the field and that's him, its not the OC, its not the line its heavily on him to improve on. Maybe last year was an outlier all around and Geno goes back to being a 2-1 TD/INT ratio guy like he was the two previous years. My worry is its partly because of his age but hopefully that's not the case.

 

[pittpnthrs]

An interesting article that paints a different picture than most were seeing.

Why Ryan Grubb wasn’t the problem with the Seahawks offense

The fired coordinator wasn’t blameless for the Seahawks’ offensive issues this season, but the main issue was personnel, writes columnist Matt Calkins.

www.seattletimes.com

 

[keasley45]

An interesting article that paints a different picture than most were seeing.

Why Ryan Grubb wasn’t the problem with the Seahawks offense

The fired coordinator wasn’t blameless for the Seahawks’ offensive issues this season, but the main issue was personnel, writes columnist Matt Calkins.

www.seattletimes.com

Sure, its personnel if you choose to stay in your silo and rather than adapt your scheme to the guys you have, stubbornly try to force 11 guys to do what YOU want them to do.

And personnel didnt dictate passong the ball on 87% of downs against a poor defense in the Giants. Nor did it preclude Grubb from using rollouts, motions or more PA.

I honestly hope someone else picks him uo so that he can flame out again.

 

[JayhawkMike]

The days of having a great defense, solid running game and a mid QB and getting to the Super Bowl are long in the past.

 

[keasley45]

It’s a fair point but Russ was elite for sure in Seattle. I don’t think it’s fair to judge a running QB in his mid 30’s and then say he’s not elite. Almost no one is at this stage.

As far as how the league ranks Geno? Execs put him at 20th so the league actually views Geno as slightly below average and that was before the is year. I will be curious to see how the league views him after this year. Doubt it would go up any.

I partially agree with you on system vs QB but either way even if your argument is true you might be able to have a good not elite QB BUT their production is elite aka Purdy.

What execs put him at 20? If fhat were the case, the execs who have the most direct experience with him woukdnt be voicing their support. Their would be at least a handful of qbs that they coukd acquire to perform better.

And on what planet does the 20th best qb lead the league in accuracy, finish 3rd in completion percentage, and near first in adjusted completion percentage.

When in the history of the NFL has that happened?

If Geno were really the 20th best qb in the league, grubb would still be employed.

 

[keasley45]

The days of having a great defense, solid running game and a mid QB and getting to the Super Bowl are long in the past.

The past is prologue. Lets revisit that statement in a few years.

Prime example - jaylen hurts is an average at best qb without his legs.

The Eagles have ridden a rushing attack, not their QB, to where they are.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Sure, its personnel if you choose to stay in your silo and rather than adapt your scheme to the guys you have, stubbornly try to force 11 guys to do what YOU want them to do.

This is the exact issue Carroll had as a coach thus the old saying "trying to pound a square peg into a round hole". Trying to get players to do what they couldn't and playing against their strengths. The only difference between Pete and the new regime was Pete chose the players he was asking that of while MM and Grubb were trying to scheme with what they inherited.

Not trying to defend Grubb, but it wasn't all him.

 

[James in PA]

As I've stated all along, our offensive woes this year were caused by a three headed monster: Schneider, Grubb and Smith. They all need to shoulder some of the blame. We got rid of one of them. The other one is obviously not going anywhere yet. The third one (Smith) can take a hike too, unless he's willing to take a massive pay cut (but that's not happening).

Two out of three ain't bad.

 

[toffee]

If Stafford couldn't or wouldn't play in 2025, would Geno sacrifice a finger on his non throwing hand, or a pay cut to join the Rams? Would McVay want a 9 finger Geno?