MacDonald riding with Geno

OrangeGravy

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Every single time I’ve stated that I’m met with paragraphs from multiple people why that take is crazy.

I don’t take any of this personal. It’s you who gets upset with people who don’t view Geno the way you do. I’ve said multiple times I don’t care where people rank Geno as we’re all entitled to an opinion and it’s fun to agree, disagree whatever as long as it doesn’t bleed into other topics because that’s what happens when people make it personal. Now you’ve said multiple things on other topics I’ve agreed with and hit the like button. One of the guys in this thread puts a laughing emoji on a ton of my posts because I disagreed with him on Geno, another poster lost it too because of the same thing.

So yeah when you say “it’s only the other side” when I’ve seen that that’s not the case i get annoyed.

None of this is personal. I just wish the two sides didn’t take the Geno stuff so seriously. If I have him lower than you it’s perfectly fine. I mean hell I have him multiple spots higher than nfl execs has him in Sandos last poll so it’s not like I’m a hater.

And for the dozen time, I’ve said he may very well be the best option for next year and if he is I’ll be hoping for the best with an improved line and a new OC
I will say this Ozzy, on this whole Geno conundrum. I can only speculate for Keasley45, Maelstrom787, and others who argue Geno's side, but I suspect they probably agree at least in part.

For me, this argument isn't about how good or bad Geno is. It's that people who think Geno is bad in this or that area of the game, aren't grasping that all but a small few QBs have the same issues. I think you all way underestimate how often other QBs make mistakes of all varieties. Darnold, Carr, Baker, Dak, etc.... AND Geno are all the same QB essentially. They're all a lateral move at BEST. People complaining about Geno and wanting to replace him with any other reasonably attainable QB are not getting this point. Whether it's simple ignorance to that situation or just intentional spite against Geno, who knows.

That's what I argue against.

Anyone against Geno because he's somehow preventing us from responsibly planning for the future at the position is being willfully ignorant. Having Geno or any other QB in his range and at his price isn't preventing anything. And no, that isn't preventing us from potentially losing 15 games and getting a top 5 draft pick. No GM, coach, or players would ever make the decision to start a QB that would likely lose you double digit games with the roster we currently have. Outside of a bad owner, nobody involved in football at that level is ever gonna lose on purpose when the only prize for doing so, is getting a lottery ticket with 20% chance of hitting.
 

Appyhawk

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There's no point arguing with the mod. There's no ignore button for mods, so you're forced to deal with the ignorance. Careful though, he might use his mod powers on you if you keep challenging his acumen.
"Mod powers" are supposed to be used for specifically defined infractions. Otherwise, and I think it is an important point, mods are just members and fans like everyone else.
 
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keasley45

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The thing that is most frustrating is that just pointing to a broad range of facts that support the position that Geno can be a top 10 qb (again, because he has been) gets recast as blindly defending the qb, thinking he is elite, believing he is faultless, etc.

Fact is, most of my posts stem from statements made about Geno that hold up some aspect of his game (negative) that for whatever reason need to be cast as THE defining statement about who he is. And those certain aspects are almost always presented without any desire to consider context or circumstance.

I mean, the fact that there's this seeming need to definitively say exactly who the dude is as a qb (or who he cant be) is asinine, given the state of the leadership of this offense over the last 4 year - its been run be unqualified coaches in virtually all of the critical positions. And we honestly want to make defi itive statements about who and what a player is capable of in THAT reality. Its silly AND INCREDIBLY hyopcritical considering many of the folks trying to say Geno is this or isnt that, were the same ones blaming Nathaniel Hackett for Wilson's struggles his first year in Denver. The OC and the O line. But try to state the same gere when we have OCs who have been fired, O line coaches omwho have been fired, and defenses that until this year were horrid, and you get accused of making ecery excuse possible for Geno. Yet the folks who say that will never asnswer the question of - how many more wins would we have if we had a competent OC... in 22, 23, or 24?' And the reason why, is simple - if they attribute even 1 win to a better OC, we are a playoff team every year under Geno. And how many more wins would we have had if our defense wasnt 30th in the league in 22 and 23? They wont answer that one either because the logical answer is likely at least another. And improvements in those areas likely also lead to playoff victories.

But instead, somehow the fact that we couldnt make the playoffs with an unqualified OC, crap defense, crap potection and an unreliable (28th on average) run game somehow all falls on Geno,s plate.
 
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keasley45

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Thing is, this is a discussion board where people are free to express their opinions. It just gets sticky when opinions are expressed as facts and people try to argue their personal opinion against facts.

If all you feel is that

Geno is bad in the redzone
Geno doesnt throw enough TDs
Geno is throwing more interceptions
Geno isnt good under pressure
Geno cant win big games
Geno's Exp P A rating is bad

Well, there is a whole mountain of evidence to counter those points

AND

Why are some hell bent on defining him RIGHT NOW when we have had such poor coaching on offense over his tenure as starter? Thats not an 'excuse', thats fact. We just hired a new OC and all of the discussion was around what scheme he woukd run, whether he used motion, whether he used PA, whether he could scheme a good run attack, whether he can help the o line. Why? BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE THINGS GOOD OCs do. And they havent been done here since Geno has been starter - at least not effectively. So almost everyone, even the GeNo's see the need, but somehow the Nos dont attribute NOT having those things to a qbs struggles... Why do we need them now if the QB should have been fine without them and not having them is an 'excuse'?

I dont get why a fan wouldnt say - 'wow, our coaching on offense has been terrible, our o line hasnt been able to protect, our run game has been MIA, and we STILL almost made the playoffs with a qb who despite all of that, has shown really well in several areas.'

It should all start there. How good our qb can be is a function of how good the guy is calling the plays, drawing up protection, and navigating the chess match on sunday that is football.
 

toffee

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Why are some hell bent on defining him RIGHT NOW when we have had such poor coaching on offense over his tenure as starter?

I dont get why a fan wouldnt say - 'wow, our coaching on offense has been terrible, our o line hasnt been able to protect, our run game has been MIA, and we STILL almost made the playoffs with a qb who despite all of that, has shown really well in several areas.'
That is easy, deep down geNOs want Geno to fail, will Geno to fail, wow, Geno threw an INT, or an analytic publishes something negative about our QB, it's the next round on me time. You are trying to rebut emotion with logic/inference, you shan't succeed.
 

JayhawkMike

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You're wrong this time man. We don't want him to fail. That's just flat out not true. I've never in my life wanted a Hawks player to fail. Ever.
What the blind Geno fanatics don’t understand is this:
1. When Geno is ON THR FIELD I want him to win every damn game and complete every pass etc.
2. BUT Geno is just not good enough to get us to the goal of winning the Super Bowl or even getting close to it.
3. So I don’t care if we have a down year training someone that has the ability IN THE LONG RUN to get us to the Super Bowl.
4. AND every snap by Geno is a wasted snap that could be taken by the QB that CAN get us there.
5. So I want him gone. Even if he has a good game or a decent season because he cannot get is to,our goal.
6. Having a winning record and not even being a threat to win in the playoffs is OLD and as another person posted it’s been ELEVEN years today that we won a Super Bowl. That means it’s been THREE playoff wins in NINE years. And GENO has never won a single one.
7. and for the few that say “oh the fantasy football people are ruining this place” (which I have never played) and then spout some obscure advanced stat to show Geno is a top QB I just have to laugh.
8. So I don’t hate Geno the person or the football player and don’t think he is horrible I just think he is a total waste of time. And as compared to other QBs maybe ranked around 16-20.
9. I have Been convinced a great OC can make up for a mid QB so hope we get one and dump Geno for a young gun that the OC can elevate.
 

pittpnthrs

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but deep down geNO is that ugly dude that replaced their hero Wilson, and they will never never forgive geNO.

I don't believe this is correct. If Wilson has anything to do with this debate at all, it's only because some people were shouting how much better the team was with Geno running the offense. It's as if Geno should never have sat behind Russ. Any sane fan knows Wilson was done at that point as he's proved ever since then, but the act of Geno always being a better option is criminal. It's almost as if some anoited Geno as the greatest QB the franchise ever had because he broke a record or two with an extra game to do so. That is why there is some kickback among some fans. Its unrealistic. It's not about the love for Wilson, it's about the hate.
 

pittpnthrs

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For me, this argument isn't about how good or bad Geno is. It's that people who think Geno is bad in this or that area of the game, aren't grasping that all but a small few QBs have the same issues. I think you all way underestimate how often other QBs make mistakes of all varieties. Darnold, Carr, Baker, Dak, etc.... AND Geno are all the same QB essentially. They're all a lateral move at BEST. People complaining about Geno and wanting to replace him with any other reasonably attainable QB are not getting this point. Whether it's simple ignorance to that situation or just intentional spite against Geno, who knows.

I agree with this one million percent. I place Geno in the Darnold, Carr, Baker, Dak tier and replacing him with one of those guys makes zero sense. I don't get the people that want Howell either. I don't want to ride with a QB that flashes sometimes, but comes down to earth way to often. I'm at the point where I want to try a rookie draft pick. I don't want a Cousins, Lock, or somebody like that.
 

pittpnthrs

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The thing that is most frustrating is that just pointing to a broad range of facts that support the position that Geno can be a top 10 qb (again, because he has been) gets recast as blindly defending the qb, thinking he is elite, believing he is faultless, etc.

Fact is, most of my posts stem from statements made about Geno that hold up some aspect of his game (negative) that for whatever reason need to be cast as THE defining statement about who he is. And those certain aspects are almost always presented without any desire to consider context or circumstance.

I mean, the fact that there's this seeming need to definitively say exactly who the dude is as a qb (or who he cant be) is asinine, given the state of the leadership of this offense over the last 4 year - its been run be unqualified coaches in virtually all of the critical positions. And we honestly want to make defi itive statements about who and what a player is capable of in THAT reality. Its silly AND INCREDIBLY hyopcritical considering many of the folks trying to say Geno is this or isnt that, were the same ones blaming Nathaniel Hackett for Wilson's struggles his first year in Denver. The OC and the O line. But try to state the same gere when we have OCs who have been fired, O line coaches omwho have been fired, and defenses that until this year were horrid, and you get accused of making ecery excuse possible for Geno. Yet the folks who say that will never asnswer the question of - how many more wins would we have if we had a competent OC... in 22, 23, or 24?' And the reason why, is simple - if they attribute even 1 win to a better OC, we are a playoff team every year under Geno. And how many more wins would we have had if our defense wasnt 30th in the league in 22 and 23? They wont answer that one either because the logical answer is likely at least another. And improvements in those areas likely also lead to playoff victories.

But instead, somehow the fact that we couldnt make the playoffs with an unqualified OC, crap defense, crap potection and an unreliable (28th on average) run game somehow all falls on Geno,s plate.

I think this whole Geno debate is getting lost in translation at some point. It's not whether he is capable of playing at a top 10 tier at some points or about the coaching or other weaknesses the team might have. The whole argument is whether one believes he is capable of leading the team to post season success if issues were fixed for him or not. Some thinks he can, others (me) don't. The whole debate is pointless because neither side is ever going to find out due to his age and lack of time, so why do we continue to argue? We have maybe one more season or two at the most with Geno. Let's just cheer the guy on and hope for the best.
 

pittpnthrs

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Why are some hell bent on defining him RIGHT NOW when we have had such poor coaching on offense over his tenure as starter?

I dont get why a fan wouldnt say - 'wow, our coaching on offense has been terrible, our o line hasnt been able to protect, our run game has been MIA, and we STILL almost made the playoffs with a qb who despite all of that, has shown really well in several areas.'

It's not defining him RIGHT NOW. It's defining him over the course of his career. He hasen't changed. I don't care about the coaching or run game or what have you, but I do care about the mental mistakes I see on the normal that I don't believe can be fixed (especially at this point). This is where the argument lies,,,,you believe there are reasons for his mental breakdowns and some of believe it's just Genos makeup. That's why some of us get irritable with all the excuses sometimes. Its as if some will never admit that he's a bonehead sometimes.
 

Fernie Hawks Fan

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It's not defining him RIGHT NOW. It's defining him over the course of his career. He hasen't changed. I don't care about the coaching or run game or what have you, but I do care about the mental mistakes I see on the normal that I don't believe can be fixed (especially at this point). This is where the argument lies,,,,you believe there are reasons for his mental breakdowns and some of believe it's just Genos makeup. That's why some of us get irritable with all the excuses sometimes. Its as if some will never admit that he's a bonehead sometimes.
(BOLD was me) This is pretty well where I am at concerning Geno. Yes, he does do some great things even considering the crap O-line and ineffective OC play calls...BUT...it's the bonehead plays that make my blood boil.
 

toffee

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"Mod powers" are supposed to be used for specifically defined infractions. Otherwise, and I think it is an important point, mods are just members and fans like everyone else.
Except members can not put those "just members" on ignore, I think that was OrangeGravy's point. With that, those "just members" are not like everyone else.
 

JayhawkMike

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It's not defining him RIGHT NOW. It's defining him over the course of his career. He hasen't changed. I don't care about the coaching or run game or what have you, but I do care about the mental mistakes I see on the normal that I don't believe can be fixed (especially at this point). This is where the argument lies,,,,you believe there are reasons for his mental breakdowns and some of believe it's just Genos makeup. That's why some of us get irritable with all the excuses sometimes. Its as if some will never admit that he's a bonehead sometimes.
You can't judge a book by it's cover but you damn sure can by it's last couple of chapters.
 

Ozzy

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That is easy, deep down geNOs want Geno to fail, will Geno to fail, wow, Geno threw an INT, or an analytic publishes something negative about our QB, it's the next round on me time. You are trying to rebut emotion with logic/inference, you shan't succeed.
Yeah this is where I have a problem. Keasely states Geno is top 10. Me disagreeing isn’t solely because of emotion. It’s how literally the rest of the country views it. It’s not logical to say anyone not agreeing with top 10 status is so irrational it has to be emotional by default.

Outside of a couple of posters almost everyone agrees he’s not playing at a top 10 level. Are you 3-4 the only objective ones and the rest of us our in our feelings?

Again if someone thinks Geno is 10th, I don’t have a problem with it. You can cling to a couple of metrics that lead to that conclusion, I just think when looking at it in totality it’s wrong. Now again he may be our best option for next year so if he is I will be rooting for him.
 

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