Is this the best secondary in nfl history?

[drdiags]

Nice post (there are some other good ones, especial that article link) amidst the other junk here.

Yea, I remember that secondary, they were badass! I am sure there are some other ones we are forgetting too. Remember the Killer B's that Miami had? They carried that team to the Superbowl with the little guy and the old guy (Don Strock) playing QB, who was the little guy? Danny Wood or something like that?

But yea, that Dolphin's secondary was great... too bad they ran into John Riggins in the Superbowl. You can't play pass defense against a bulldozer!!!!

Nick Bounicotti was one of the B's as a DL (or was that LB). Bob Griese was the QB that got hurt and had Don Strock fill in for him (or am I thinking Earl Morrall and an earlier Dolphins team?). I think Woodley was the young QB that played in a Superbowl. Now you are taxing my memory. I know for a fact I just messed all this up. Hopefully one of the names I spewed lights a match and you get that little guy's name.

 

[Hawks46]

Best year Deion ever had statistically was in 1991 with the Falcons. He had 6 INTs, 1 sack, 49 tackles, 2 forced fumbles, and an unknown # of passes defensed (not tracked back then). His second best year was 1993 when he had 7 INTs, 0 sacks, 34 tackles, and 1 forced fumble.

In 2012, Sherman's only full season to date, he had 8 INTs, 1 sack, 3 forced fumbles, 53 tackles, and 24 passes defensed. Sherman is a statistically better CB than Sanders in every possible way.


*Drops mic*

Sorry but give any GM in this league a choice between Deion and Sherm at corner and 32 out of 32 are going with Prime.
You might as well be comparing Russel Wilson to John Elway, the short sample size and modern passing era makes a stat comparison almost meaningless.

You give 31 of 32 GMs in this league a chance to draft Russell Wilson and they ignore the guy because he's too short. 31 GMs passed on Richard Sherman, but today would trade away multiple drafts to have him on their team.

The ability of NFL GMs to objectively and accurately evaluate talent is probably the worst possible way to judge any player.

Now, did you have some actual knowledge to share? So far, the only thing you've proven is that you can't backup your argument in any meaningful way, but you personally have a stronger emotional attachment to Deion (understandable, since you're a 49er fan).

Zing! He got you there Weadoption. Seriously, Sherman was drafted in the 5th round. How can that argument even hold water ? 31 GMs passed on Sherman multiple times, and you can't tell me one GM out there, including your beloved Niners, that wouldn't have drafted Sherman in the 2nd round.

Brady was drafted in the 6th round. WIlson in the 3rd round. The list goes on and on and on. GM's don't know everything.

IMO, Sanders was one of the better cover CBs ever. I don't think he blanketed a side like Revis or Sherman do, but he was good in that he also played ST at a high level and added that dimension. Was he the best ever ?

Only if you don't consider elite CBs having to play run defense. Deion was terrible at run defense and tackling. Screens out to his side were money.

 

[formido]

As much as it pains me, it's probably the Niners back four when they won the SB in 1994.

CB-Eric Davis
CB-Deion Sanders
FS-Merton Hanks
SS-Tim McDonald

IMO the one and only factor that makes you the "best ever" is titles. If the Hawks win the SB? THEN we can talk about where this defensive backfield stands up to all these other great foursomes. But until then, IMO it's premature.

Titles don't mean anything. It takes all facets of the games to win a title, not just an elite secondary.

Davis & Sanders vs. Sherman & Browner/Thurmond/Maxwell is certainly an excellent debate... coin flip me for Sherman/Sanders.

Chancellor vs. McDonald? Give me big hittin Kam.

Earl Thomas might be one of the best FSs EVER.

Games where defense gave up over 20 points:
1994 9ers: 6 (regular season)
2013 Hawks: 5 (regular season)

1994 had nothing on 2013 in terms of points scored.

The 1994 9ers gave up an average of 23 points a game in the playoffs. That's not happening with Seattle.

You can throw out all the stats you want, but I guarantee you if ESPN started a poll today or asked every coach and media member in the league who the best secondaries of all time were, this Hawks secondary wouldn't even be on the list.................yet.

Yet has just arrived.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/18/s...ense-thrives-in-a-tough-environment.html?_r=0

So now it's just a matter of deciding if the two teams ahead of Seattle owe more of their pass defense to pass rush versus secondary. Seattle's defense was almost this good last year when it had no pass rush.

And oh, by the way, Pete Carroll was the defensive back coach for Minnesota, one of those two teams ahead of Seattle on the all-time era-adjusted pass defense list.

 

[plyka]

Best year Deion ever had statistically was in 1991 with the Falcons. He had 6 INTs, 1 sack, 49 tackles, 2 forced fumbles, and an unknown # of passes defensed (not tracked back then). His second best year was 1993 when he had 7 INTs, 0 sacks, 34 tackles, and 1 forced fumble.

In 2012, Sherman's only full season to date, he had 8 INTs, 1 sack, 3 forced fumbles, 53 tackles, and 24 passes defensed. Sherman is a statistically better CB than Sanders in every possible way.


*Drops mic*

I don't think you understand that Deon was the BEST because his numbers were so small. What don't you understand about the fact that no QB would EVER THROW HIS WAY? He would shut down the entire side of the field. He had no opportunities to make INTs because no QBs were stupid enough to throw the ball at him. That's how good of a cover man he was. If you did any of these things on any board on the Internet that was not Seahawk related:

1) Talk about Sherman and Deon in the same sentence, compare any part of their skill set, or in any way even insinuate that Sherman belongs in the same conversation
2) Talk about Deon being "mediocre" in coverage
3) Try to bring up INTs or tackles as a way to argue against Deon

Bring up any of these points on any board non-seahawk related you would be LAUGHED OFF THE BOARD. No one can take you seriously. It is beyond a joke. Deon is well known to be the best cover man in the history of the NFL. In serious circles there are arguments to be made --maybe this guy was better, it's too tough to say who is the best of all time, Deon maybe one of them, etc. But there are no serious analysts which would entertain the idea that Deon was "mediocre" at coverage or that Sherman even belongs in the same conversation.

The homerism on this board is completely out of control. Maybe after 8 years or so of Sherman being the best CB in the NFL, we can start talking about Sherman being in the Hall of Fame. Perhaps if he adds 30 or so TDs to the previous fact, we can talk about Sherman being in the same league as Deon. Until then you guys are just showing your grand incompetence in analyzing talent and skill in the NFL.

Here are some other facts, besides total tackles in a year, that made Deon a HOF CB and perhaps the most well regarded shutdown corner of all time:

Taken from Wiki:
During his career, Sanders intercepted 53 passes for 1,331 yards (a 25.1 yards per return average), recovered four fumbles for 15 yards, returned 155 kickoffs for 3,523 yards, gained 2,199 yards on 212 punt returns, and caught 60 passes for 784 yards. Sanders amassed 7,838 all-purpose yards and scored 22 touchdowns: nine interception returns, six punt returns, three kickoff returns, three receiving, and one fumble recovery. His 19 defensive and return touchdowns are an NFL record. He was selected to eight Pro Bowls in 1991--1994, 1996–1999. He was also awarded the NFL Defensive Player of the Year Award in 1994.
College Football News named Sanders #8 in its list of 100 Greatest College Football Players of All-Time.
The Sporting News named Sanders #37 in their Top 100 Football Players of the Century released in 1999.
ESPN named Sanders #74 in its list of the 100 Great Athletes of the Century released in 1999.
NFL.com named Sanders #34 on NFL's Top 100 list released in late 2010
On November 11, 2010 Sanders was inducted into the Atlanta Falcons' Ring of Honor.
On February 5, 2011 Sanders was announced as a Pro Football Hall of Fame inductee in his first year of eligibility.
On May 17, 2011, Sanders was announced as a College Football Hall of Fame inductee.
On August 6, 2011, Sanders was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.[16]

Sanders also had a rushing TD in the playoffs (against the Philadelphia Eagles in January 1996). This makes him (including post season) one of only two players in NFL history (Bill Dudley being the other) to score a touchdown six different ways (interception return, punt return, kickoff return, receiving, rushing, and a fumble recovery).

On February 6, 2011, at Super Bowl XLV, Sanders performed the pre-game coin toss. As he had played for the Dallas Cowboys during their most recent Super Bowl championship, he received the loudest ovation during the pregame ceremonies.

 

[Sac]

Champ Bailey clearly belongs in the conversation

 

[Weadoption]

Best year Deion ever had statistically was in 1991 with the Falcons. He had 6 INTs, 1 sack, 49 tackles, 2 forced fumbles, and an unknown # of passes defensed (not tracked back then). His second best year was 1993 when he had 7 INTs, 0 sacks, 34 tackles, and 1 forced fumble.

In 2012, Sherman's only full season to date, he had 8 INTs, 1 sack, 3 forced fumbles, 53 tackles, and 24 passes defensed. Sherman is a statistically better CB than Sanders in every possible way.


*Drops mic*

Sorry but give any GM in this league a choice between Deion and Sherm at corner and 32 out of 32 are going with Prime.
You might as well be comparing Russel Wilson to John Elway, the short sample size and modern passing era makes a stat comparison almost meaningless.

You give 31 of 32 GMs in this league a chance to draft Russell Wilson and they ignore the guy because he's too short. 31 GMs passed on Richard Sherman, but today would trade away multiple drafts to have him on their team.

The ability of NFL GMs to objectively and accurately evaluate talent is probably the worst possible way to judge any player.

Now, did you have some actual knowledge to share? So far, the only thing you've proven is that you can't backup your argument in any meaningful way, but you personally have a stronger emotional attachment to Deion (understandable, since you're a 49er fan).

Zing! He got you there Weadoption. Seriously, Sherman was drafted in the 5th round. How can that argument even hold water ? 31 GMs passed on Sherman multiple times, and you can't tell me one GM out there, including your beloved Niners, that wouldn't have drafted Sherman in the 2nd round.

Brady was drafted in the 6th round. WIlson in the 3rd round. The list goes on and on and on. GM's don't know everything.

IMO, Sanders was one of the better cover CBs ever. I don't think he blanketed a side like Revis or Sherman do, but he was good in that he also played ST at a high level and added that dimension. Was he the best ever ?

Only if you don't consider elite CBs having to play run defense. Deion was terrible at run defense and tackling. Screens out to his side were money.

Of course GM's in all sports make player evaluation errors, but if GMs and their scout staffs are not the most knowledgeble people in the world with respect to the evaluation of talent, who would you say is?
Hint: they dont post on fanboards or copy/paste from nfl wikipedia.
My point was simply to say that, in my opinion, if you gave these individuals the Deion vs Sherman choice, they are very likely picking Prime, for obvious reasons.
If/When Sherman makes his all-decade team in the future, perhaps thats a different story.

 

[253hawk]

Love the guy that's slurping on Deion so much that he hasn't even spelled his name correctly once.

 

[HansGruber]

Here are some other facts, besides total tackles in a year, that made Deon a HOF CB and perhaps the most well regarded shutdown corner of all time:
...

You made the argument that "Deion Sanders is the best shutdown corner of all time". The burden is on you to prove it. Jerry Rice is able to maintain his "best WR of all time" title because nobody has broken his records. Which proves that he was the best at those things.

The condition you placed on your statement - "best of all time" is likewise very easy to disprove. One must simply provide factual evidence to show that Deion Sanders was not the best at any measurable aspect of his job, and he would no longer be "the best cornerback of all time".

In 2012 and 2013, Richard Sherman has put up better statistics in every category than Deion Sanders did in the best season of his career. This would mean that Deion Sanders was NOT the best, because others have been "better".


Calling me a "homer", or yelling about how everyone agrees with you (for reference, see https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon) has zero legitimacy. Your argument has been disproven.

You can make the emotional argument that Deion Sanders is your favorite cornerback of all time and that would be fine. But we have already established that Deion Sanders is not actually the best CB evarrrrr.

 

[vin.couve12]

Actually I would have to say that Sanders IS the best showdown COVER corner of all time. He literally changed the scheme of the the team he went to in terms of how they covered that part of the field...or didn't rather because Sanders was there.

However, I once saw Sanders get knocked to the ground 3 times on the same run play. Thus, I could never call him the best corner of all time. He was like Jackie Joyner Kersee in cleats and pads....a really fast woman.

Darrell Green might take best overall. Maybe. Tough to say....

 

[HansGruber]

Actually I would have to say that Sanders IS the best showdown COVER corner of all time. He literally changed the scheme of the the team he went to in terms of how they covered that part of the field...or didn't rather because Sanders was there.

However, I once saw Sanders get knocked to the ground 3 times on the same run play. Thus, I could never call him the best corner of all time. He was like Jackie Joyner Kersee in cleats and pads....a really fast woman.

Darrell Green might take best overall. Maybe. Tough to say....

Every team adjusts schemes against good cornerbacks. Teams avoided Lester Hayes as well. Deion didn't change the game as a cover corner, he changed the NFL by being the first media diva, kick return skills, and being a multi sport pro athlete.

And for the record, if you define greatness by how teams planned against him, then Deion was only great against the average and non playoff teams.

Montana threw at him repeatedly, and Jerry Rice had some career games against him, including a 13-catch, 225-yard, 5 TD performance against Atlanta that was, to that point, one of the best games any WR ever had in NFL history. Jerry Rice had 6 games against Sanders with over 100 yards receiving.

Against Randy Moss, he was garbage too, giving up 4 TDs. Minnesota threw at him all day long.

I can bring up a whole bunch more examples. If Sherman ever had a game like that, these lame Niner fans would never let you hear the end of it.

Again, I have no problem with people saying he was a good cornerback or even their favorite. But best ever? Pfffffft.

 

[253hawk]

Not sure how a 'team' observation got turned into a single-most-best-ever-player debate, but as it stands Seattle has the 4th best (statistically) secondary in history right now with a chance to climb even higher before the season ends.

 

[HansGruber]

Not sure how a 'team' observation got turned into a single-most-best-ever-player debate, but as it stands Seattle has the 4th best (statistically) secondary in history right now with a chance to climb even higher before the season ends.

It got turned into a Deion Sanders debate when some 49er fan came in here and said the 1994 SF secondary was better than the Legion of Boom, because they had Merton Hanks and Deion Sanders, and Deion Sanders was the "best shutdown cover corner of all time" and some other laughably stupid stuff about how Sherman has never played at Sanders' level.

What makes that so laughably stupid is that Sherman has consistently put up better statistics, every single season, than Sanders ever had in his entire career.

And that's how it all started. I showed the Niner fans the numbers. They continue to appeal to popular opinion, mythology, seances with the spirits of dead NFL players, and the effect of gravitational pull on microwaves to justify the demonstrably false argument that Deion Sanders was the best shutdown corner of all time.

All of which is pointless to the thread itself. And why I'm trying to back out and stop feeding the trolls now.

 

[Weadoption]

Prime was the first NFL media diva?
For someone that started watching football in the mid 90's maybe.

 

[BASF]

What makes that so laughably stupid is that Sherman has consistently put up better statistics, every single season, than Sanders ever had in his entire career.

Perhaps the numbers are skewed in Sherman's favor due to the passing attempts and completions increasing since the 90's. Before you accuse me of being in favor of Sanders, I am a fan of his from his FSU days and have repeatedly knocked him down on this site for his unwillingness to tackle. Sherman is the better all around corner of the pair.

 

[HansGruber]

What makes that so laughably stupid is that Sherman has consistently put up better statistics, every single season, than Sanders ever had in his entire career.

Perhaps the numbers are skewed in Sherman's favor due to the passing attempts and completions increasing since the 90's. Before you accuse me of being in favor of Sanders, I am a fan of his from his FSU days and have repeatedly knocked him down on this site for his unwillingness to tackle. Sherman is the better all around corner of the pair.

Sando was on 710espn a few weeks ago and talked about this. Now that he works for Espn, he's got access to some database with pretty much all data from all games going way way back (Brock and Danny like to tease him about this)

Apparently, he calculated the total pass attempts against Sherman the last 2 seasons and said it is by far the lowest in the NFL (something like 40 attempts in 2 seasons). The craziest thing he found was that Sherman intercepted about 30% of the passes thrown at him, IIRC. He said it was by far the fewest pass attempts against any DB so the arguments about Sherman getting more chances is false. He also said they couldn't find any DB (since ESPN started tracking targeted defenders 10 yrs ago) who had less targets.

I'll try to find the link. It was impressive. Should be in the Brock and Danny podcasts.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

What makes that so laughably stupid is that Sherman has consistently put up better statistics, every single season, than Sanders ever had in his entire career.

Hold on now, Sanders played for like 15 years and is in the HOF. So let's not anoint Sherm just yet. You wanna crown em! crown em!

Sanders also was one of the greatest return men of all time, some say THE greatest return man with like 20 TD's I think?

Now I will give Sherman this, he's a more complete DB than Sanders was when you take into account tackling, etc. But IMO this conversation is about 10 years too early. Sherman has a lot to prove in order to be in Sander's class of DB.

 

[Hasselbeck]

Deion couldn't tackle to save his life. He'd just tuck his chin and dive at where a guy's ankles used to be.

Deion is the greatest CB in the history of the NFL. Deion would take away one side of the field. Richard Sherman is not up to that level, he doesn't take away an entire side of an NFL field.

I agree that Deion was unreal in his prime.

However, he also played in a much more CB friendly era. If you gave Sherman those same rules that Deion flourished under, I think he'd be a shut down corner.

Still the HOF chat and GOAT secondary chat is very very premature.

 

[Hasselbeck]

Best year Deion ever had statistically was in 1991 with the Falcons. He had 6 INTs, 1 sack, 49 tackles, 2 forced fumbles, and an unknown # of passes defensed (not tracked back then). His second best year was 1993 when he had 7 INTs, 0 sacks, 34 tackles, and 1 forced fumble.

In 2012, Sherman's only full season to date, he had 8 INTs, 1 sack, 3 forced fumbles, 53 tackles, and 24 passes defensed. Sherman is a statistically better CB than Sanders in every possible way.


*Drops mic*

Would you take Stevie Brown over Earl Thomas?

In 2012 he had 8 INT's and 76 tackles. Earl had 3 INT's and 66 tackles.

Stats don't tell the whole story man. Saying Richard Sherman is BETTER than Deion Sanders is hysterically bad.

 

[RolandDeschain]

Sanders also was one of the greatest return men of all time, some say THE greatest return man with like 20 TD's I think?

He was a great returner, but your 20 TD mark is way off. He had 22 career touchdowns including pick sixes and fumble recovery TDs. He had six punt return TDs, and three kick return TDs for his career. Hester is the combined/overall leader with 12 punt return TDs and five kick return TDs, though the kick return TD record is still tied at 8 or 9 between Leon Washington and Joshua Cribbs, I think.

Stats don't tell the whole story man. Saying Richard Sherman is BETTER than Deion Sanders is hysterically bad.

Hysterically bad? Absolutely not. Way too early to tell one way or another? Sure.


Some of you guys are letting emotions get in the way too much, here.

 

[Hasselbeck]

Sanders also was one of the greatest return men of all time, some say THE greatest return man with like 20 TD's I think?

He was a great returner, but your 20 TD mark is way off. He had 22 career touchdowns including pick sixes and fumble recovery TDs. He had six punt return TDs, and three kick return TDs for his career. Hester is the combined/overall leader with 12 punt return TDs and five kick return TDs, though the kick return TD record is still tied at 8 or 9 between Leon Washington and Joshua Cribbs, I think.

Stats don't tell the whole story man. Saying Richard Sherman is BETTER than Deion Sanders is hysterically bad.

Hysterically bad? Absolutely not. Way too early to tell one way or another? Sure.


Some of you guys are letting emotions get in the way too much, here.

Revisit this in 8-10 years.. sure. After 2.14 years? He's not close to Deion. And that's not a knock on Sherm who is a great corner, as much as it is a compliment to Deion who was the best to ever play the position.