Is Russell Wilson worth extending?

[Spin Doctor]

I gave you too much credit at the start of this thread. There have been games when Wilson carried the Hawks. Whether he has to or not is immaterial, when he has had too, he has.

You ignore things that have happened, and invent things that have not. You love the traditional model, and in doing so laud a QB who could not perform in the clutch with great weapons around him just 9 months ago.

It isn't important to me that you like Russ. I have concerns too. But ignoring how big he has been when it has really mattered makes your voice null and void.

I do not take much stock in 'game winning drives' or comeback victories. I'm a firm believe that if an offense is doing its job that one wouldn't be in that position in the first place. This is especially true for a team such as Seattle's that keeps teams games low scoring affairs.

One drive or two drives are much easier to engineer than a whole games worth of play. It is this very reason that I've never been very impressed with Andrew Luck's late game heroics. His play put the team in that very position in the first place, just like Seattle's impotent offense has put our team in the position of being down late in the 4th quarter.

And yes, Wilson has had a few REALLY good comebacks, and games with tremendous offensive production, but my question is can he do it on a regular basis? By this I mean production on offense. Many of Wilson's comebacks were low scoring affairs that the defense kept close with a few exceptions (NE, TAMPA)

And yet you praise Andrew Luck

Andrew Luck is playing at a very high level right now, he's in the MVP conversation for a reason. Just halfway into the season he has already surpassed Russell Wilson's highest touchdown total. His yards per average is way higher than the last two years Luck has played, and his completion percentage is also fairly decent. The offense over in Indy is looking far better than anything Seattle's ever fielded.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Just look at Manning, it's no accident that he has had a top 10 pass blocking line almost every year he has been in the league, even with his all-pro starting left tackle out in 2013

Yeah, let's do look at Manning--------Super Bowl 48 :roll:

Football is a team sport. Seattle won the game because they had the better overall team. That is the whole point that I'm trying to drive home. Our defense was the engine that drove us to the superbowl, our offense was largely a spectator in the matter. Manning played terrible because his team could not win one on one match-ups with our DBs.

My fear is that by paying Russell that money, Seattle will have to become a one dimensional team like the Broncos, like the Packers, like Colts with an inferior QB to those teams. My hope is that he becomes like Ben Roethlisberger, but we'll see if that happens.

 

[Anthony!]

Basically what I am wondering is if we have a game manager vs. a guy who can actually produce. I'm starting to have doubts about his playing style being conduce to having a productive offense.

Then you have not been watching for the last 2.5 years with your eyes open then. There are issues here, but what Rw has done with the significant lack of talent compared to what other top QBs gave around them is incredible.

You should read the article and not just think about this year but since RW has been here, because the talent as it relates to a passing game has been low since he got here.

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2014/11/6/716 ... elp-bandit

 

[Anthony!]

I ask this for discussion only. What would another team pay to lure RW away? Is that figure what he is really worth? How many teams would be willing to attempt to sign him away from us, and why? And perhaps, is an extension a better deal for the Hawks, and perhaps RW than just an entire new contract?

According to Clayton there are several teams that would take Wilson and pay him the 18-20 mil year.

 

[Anthony!]

My question would be ...

Do we have to sign him in the offseason?

I am leaning towards yes so we can sign him before some other contracts. I believe Cam and Luck are eligible for new contracts too.

What would he do if we didnt sign him? Would he hold out? Technically he is under contract one more year

I hope he stays here a LONG time since he IMO is the best QB the Seahawks have had so far. I just hope they start to draft players to help him out.

I was listening to Colin Cowherd this week and he brought up a great point between the Colts and Jets. He brought up in the draft the Colts drafted a TON of offense the last 2-3 years to help Luck where the Jets drafted Sanchez and then just drafted Defense time after time with barely any help on offense.

There in lies a problem they have not done a lot to help the passing game, Harvin is not a WR. They do need to improve the talent in the passing game, Baldwin would barely he a #2 on most teams, maybe even a #3.

 

[Anthony!]

At the end of the day, he will get paid big.

But, is he worth it?? Can he carry this team to victories with much lesser talent around him? especially Lynch?

When he gets paid, he will have a much weaker defense, running game, lesser stars, which means 90% of the wins/loses will be solely based on his performance. He will not win much with his <200 yard passing.

My opinion: He has shown flashes of brilliance but the problem is the inconsistency that Manning, Rogers, Brady, Brees have shown. This year has actually given us a glimpse of a team with bad defense, offense, and special teams, and when you combine that with weak qb play, it turns out to be loses. This could be our future if he stays at his current level of play.

In a perfect world, he deserves a 13-15million/year contract, but he will be receiving a 18-20/year because thats what other qb deprived franchises will pay him if we don't.

So you are saying the fact that Ne, Denver, Dallas, NO, and other teams paying their franchise QBs could still put up top 15 or better olines and wr corps. Does not matter as we will not be able to if we pay Wilson? That is obviously since other teams have done it not true. As to your thoughts he is only worth 13-15 mil, Yeah no.

By the way lesser stars please tell me who on offense beside he and lynch is a star?

Let me help you

Luck - 5th pass blocking o-line and has TY Hilton, Wyane, Nicks to throw to
P Manning- 1st pass blocking o-line and he has Thomas, Welker, Sanders
Brady 7th ranked pass blocking o-line (ours is now ranked 28th) and he has Gronk, Edelman
Rodger o-line ranked 19th in pass blocking and has Nelson, Cobb to throw to
Brees o-line ranked 6th and he has Graham, cooks, Colson,
Ryan 13th pass blocking o-line and he has Hester, Jones, White, Smith
Rivers 9th o-line, and he has Gates, Floyd, Royal, Allen


Baldiwn is our best Wr please show me were he is a #1 on any of the teams above. As to our oline well it is really bad and not betting better. Add in play calling and PC no chance style and there you go. We have seen what Rw can do when he is allowed to do what he does, we get games like the SB, NO regular season, Rams this year, Carolina last year and he doss it with far less talent around him than those other QBs, all of whom besides Luck got paid and paid big.

As to this year has given you a glimpse let me help you there also

in 5 games RW has had a QB rating over 100 and complt% over 63%. So that is 5 great games. and he has 1 okay game with complt% over 62. Then 2 bad games.

Now lets look you talk about only 200 yards. EH is avg 30 passes a game. If he completed 70% that would be 21 to get to 300 yards he would need to have a YPA of 10.0 which would be NFL record setting. However we saw in the Rams game despite the loss he can do it with 35+ attemtps. YOU want the big yards then he needs the attemps which he does not get.

As to the poor everything and this is our Future if he plays at the current level which has only been 2 games. Any qb would struggle with the talent around him that Rw has

I think I posted this but again

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2014/11/6/716 ... elp-bandit

Read some of my other posts above this one, you will find them eye opening.

 

[Anthony!]

If you don't want to pay him that 120mil, I can list at least 15-20 teams that would love the opportunity to be paying that man that type of money.

I'm not so sure, I'm really starting to question how good he really is as a passer. Granted some of it may be Bevell and Pete, but I'm not seeing him ever step up in the pocket, I'm not seeing Russell Wilson ever audible out of unfavorable plays against obvious blitz's or even adjust protection, lastly I'm not seeing much in the way of timing routes, or really any production over the middle. I never have rarely seen Russell Wilson throw to the spot where the receiver is supposed to be.

Again, some of these may be on Bevell and Pete but I'm starting to think that Russell may be playing a part in these decisions.

You need to open your eyes then, because he has done it many times, go to the SB and see the pass to Lockette, were he threw top a spot, and watch him step up.

 

[Anthony!]

Well, If you watch the tape/or rewinds or whatever you will see that Wilson IS CARRYING this team.. he is worth whatever they pay him.
that's my opinion.

I'm not impressed. He's not going through his progressions like he should, right now his footwork is a mess, his pocket presence is dismal (has always been) and he is not seeing the field like he should be. I'm not convinced that his style is conducive to long term success. He has decent accuracy, and most of the time he can be counted on to not turnover the ball, but that isn't enough in my mind to warrant 100 million dollars. The thing that worries me is Wilson's tendency to pull a disappearing act. His lack of audibles are also concerning, especially when it's obvious a blitz is coming. Does he not see the blitz or do they purposely not allow him to audible? With Lynch, Tate, Miller and Baldwin I feel like this offense should've been more productive last year.

Again, I don't know how much of this is Pete and Bevell. Bevell and Childress purposely limited the amount of audibles QB's could make in Minnesota. I would like Carroll and Bevell to take the training wheels off.

So I have now come to the conclusion you are just trying to stir trouble and maybe even a troll. Because all the stuff you say you do not see him do, he does, Hugh Millan has seen it, Brock Huard has seen it, Holmgren has seen it, and Moon has seen it and their opinion means way more than yours.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Basically what I am wondering is if we have a game manager vs. a guy who can actually produce. I'm starting to have doubts about his playing style being conduce to having a productive offense.

Then you have not been watching for the last 2.5 years with your eyes open then. There are issues here, but what Rw has done with the significant lack of talent compared to what other top QBs gave around them is incredible.

You should read the article and not just think about this year but since RW has been here, because the talent as it relates to a passing game has been low since he got here.

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2014/11/6/716 ... elp-bandit

Russell Wilson has had plenty of talent surrounding him over the years, especially in 2013. Golden Tate is a top five wide receiver this year (Detroit is 12th in pass attempts last time I checked), Miller was considered an elite tight end in Oakland, and Baldwin as a slot receiver is top 5 in the league (seriously his a damn good slot wide receiver). The special teams and turnovers consistently gave the offense short fields, and Marshawn Lynch of course had a pretty decent year. On paper that offense should have been much better than it was. I do not want to hear the no talent argument from you. I'm talking about his overall body of work here.

I mentioned this before, but during the Wilson era the Seahawks have never won a game that the opposing team scores above 24 points. Something has been broken with this offense, and it isn't just the offensive line. Russell Wilson is a decent QB, but I'm starting to suspect he's part of the problem. He doesn't make many mistakes, and he can pick up first downs with his legs, he does step up during crucial parts of the game -- but as a pure passer I'm seeing some issues that I'm not sure will ever be ironed out.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think we'll ever see an elite offense under Russell Wilson.

 

[Anthony!]

I congratulate the OP for having the balls to start such a thread. It's a legitimate topic for discussion. This is only Russell's 3rd year, and Year 3 ain't looking so great. There is the possibility that Russell has peaked, that teams have "figured him out", and that his lack of height is affecting his ability to adjust from the things defenses are taking away from him. It's not something a lot of us 12's want to admit, but it is a possibility, however remote.

If it were any other position, I'd be very hesitant, but franchise quarterbacks are in such a demand that you don't let one go even if there's a good possibility that they'll fail. It could be ten years before we acquire a quarterback that shows us what Russell has in his first two seasons. It's a risk we have to take.

But you see there is were most of us disagree. Wilson has had 5 great games, 1 okay game and 2 bad. Guess what so has Brady, Luck and every QB not names Manning. The only difference is they all have way more talent around them than Rw.

 

[-The Glove-]

I gave you too much credit at the start of this thread. There have been games when Wilson carried the Hawks. Whether he has to or not is immaterial, when he has had too, he has.

You ignore things that have happened, and invent things that have not. You love the traditional model, and in doing so laud a QB who could not perform in the clutch with great weapons around him just 9 months ago.

It isn't important to me that you like Russ. I have concerns too. But ignoring how big he has been when it has really mattered makes your voice null and void.

I do not take much stock in 'game winning drives' or comeback victories. I'm a firm believe that if an offense is doing its job that one wouldn't be in that position in the first place. This is especially true for a team such as Seattle's that keeps teams games low scoring affairs.

One drive or two drives are much easier to engineer than a whole games worth of play. It is this very reason that I've never been very impressed with Andrew Luck's late game heroics. His play put the team in that very position in the first place, just like Seattle's impotent offense has put our team in the position of being down late in the 4th quarter.

And yes, Wilson has had a few REALLY good comebacks, and games with tremendous offensive production, but my question is can he do it on a regular basis? By this I mean production on offense. Many of Wilson's comebacks were low scoring affairs that the defense kept close with a few exceptions (NE, TAMPA)

And yet you praise Andrew Luck

Andrew Luck is playing at a very high level right now, he's in the MVP conversation for a reason. Just halfway into the season he has already surpassed Russell Wilson's highest touchdown total. His yards per average is way higher than the last two years Luck has played, and his completion percentage is also fairly decent. The offense over in Indy is looking far better than anything Seattle's ever fielded.

Was Wilson not last season? It seems to me you're making arguments to fit your narrative

 

[Anthony!]

---Andrew Luck played with a mediocre O-Line, yes he did have a decent set of receivers in Wayne, and Hilton but he also had no line. It is fair to say that he faced adversity since day one, and yes he definitely had his fair share of growing pains but through it all you could see that he was going to be a great NFL Quarterback. He was, afterall his offenses only sort of production.

---In Wilson's case I do not know where he stands.

So Luck gets a pass because of his poor o-line, and you "could see he was going to be great".

But Wilson doesn't get a pass because of his poor o-line, and you "don't know where he stands".

Got it. Makes sense.

Lucks oline has never been raked lower than 17th in pass blocking and never ranked lower than Seattles since Luck and Wilson have been in the league so that comparison is not valid. LUck has always had a better oline

 

[Anthony!]

I'm sorry, but this topic kinda ticks me off. We have a quarterback who is setting records left and right, and people want talk about not keeping him? We got so lucky to get RW, we hit the freaking lottery. Quit looking a gift horse in the mouth. That's about as nice as I can possibly be on this topic.

Yea he has been great in the role he has been given with so much talent around him, but what has he shown to us on a consistent level that assures us he can lead this team to victories without beast mode and a world class defense when he is eating up 25-30% of the payroll??

I don't know why some of you can't just take the last 2 years and the superbowl out of your minds and actually think about the future when this team will not be able to afford any talent around wilson. His conservative/game managing role won't win games for us at that time.

So if you are being sarcastic nice, if you are serious, I just wasted my time replying to you.

 

[Anthony!]

This may sound like sacrilege to many to the 9th degree, but it has been a question that has been nagging at the back of my mind for awhile. Wilson is going to due a huge pay day soon somewhere in the range of 120 million dollars. He is going to be one of the best, if not the best paid Quarterback in the NFL. This means the roster is going to have to undergo a serious makeover. No longer can we have big free agent acquisitions, this contract will certainly mean letting go of a few contributors on our team at this moment. We won the superbowl last year largely to a team that was good in all phases of the game. We can no longer count on that to be the case in the future, as we're already starting to see this season.

In lieu of the looming future the question I'm asking myself is: Can Wilson carry the team, can he be that elite QB that can carry the team on his back. If we re-sign him Wilson is going to have to shoulder a much larger burden, as it is going to cost the team in a few extra areas.

Russell Wilson is a good Quarterback, certainly better than the washed up Hasselbeck, the Flynns, TJs, and Whitehursts of this world. I have my doubts though as to whether he can transcend his point guard Quarterback status.

If you believe he will be one of the best, if not the best QB in the NFL then it is a no-brainer. You extend him. I think he is good, but I don't know if you can elevate him to that level.

However, our offense stinks, as does the passing game. The 20 to 25 million a year for Wilson that is being thrown around he just isn't worth at this point in his career. You can't blame having the 30th ranked passing attack on everybody but Wilson. Great QBs have done well with poor OLines and pedestrian receivers, he just isn't elevating the players around him. He has had a lot of 4th quarter comebacks in his young career, but I would like to see a lot more consistency from him before he gets one of the insane contracts QBs get.

I am not saying we let him walk, because it isn't easy finding a good QB, I just don't think he is worth what he is likely to demand in negotiations.

30th ranked is based on yards, and we do not throw the ball enough to rank much higher. However when we have had to Wilson has proven he can, so that is why you pay him. Those are the facts.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Was Wilson not last season? It seems to me you're making arguments to fit your narrative

No, I don't believe Wilson was playing at a high level, especially during the last 1/4th of the season. I expect much more from a guy people are comparing to the likes of Steve Young. Even when it came to points, Seattle's offense was quite mediocre -- even more so when you look at the raw talent on that team.

 

[Anthony!]

Basically what I am wondering is if we have a game manager vs. a guy who can actually produce. I'm starting to have doubts about his playing style being conduce to having a productive offense.

Then you have not been watching for the last 2.5 years with your eyes open then. There are issues here, but what Rw has done with the significant lack of talent compared to what other top QBs gave around them is incredible.

You should read the article and not just think about this year but since RW has been here, because the talent as it relates to a passing game has been low since he got here.

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2014/11/6/716 ... elp-bandit

Russell Wilson has had plenty of talent surrounding him over the years, especially in 2013. Golden Tate is a top five wide receiver this year (Detroit is 12th in pass attempts last time I checked), Miller was considered an elite tight end in Oakland, and Baldwin as a slot receiver is top 5 in the league (seriously his a damn good slot wide receiver). The special teams and turnovers consistently gave the offense short fields, and Marshawn Lynch of course had a pretty decent year. On paper that offense should have been much better than it was. I do not want to hear the no talent argument from you. I'm talking about his overall body of work here.

I mentioned this before, but during the Wilson era the Seahawks have never won a game that the opposing team scores above 24 points. Something has been broken with this offense, and it isn't just the offensive line. Russell Wilson is a decent QB, but I'm starting to suspect he's part of the problem. He doesn't make many mistakes, and he can pick up first downs with his legs, he does step up during crucial parts of the game -- but as a pure passer I'm seeing some issues that I'm not sure will ever be ironed out.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think we'll ever see an elite offense under Russell Wilson.

Dude do not address me, I should never have responded to you, nothing you say is even remotely accurate.

 

[-The Glove-]

Was Wilson not last season? It seems to me you're making arguments to fit your narrative

No, I don't believe Wilson was playing at a high level, especially during the last 1/4th of the season. I expect much more from a guy people are comparing to the likes of Steve Young. Even when it came to points, Seattle's offense was quite mediocre -- even more so when you look at the raw talent on that team.

His play and the team were ridiculous the last 1/4 of the season last year sans the Cards game

 

[Spin Doctor]

Basically what I am wondering is if we have a game manager vs. a guy who can actually produce. I'm starting to have doubts about his playing style being conduce to having a productive offense.

Then you have not been watching for the last 2.5 years with your eyes open then. There are issues here, but what Rw has done with the significant lack of talent compared to what other top QBs gave around them is incredible.

You should read the article and not just think about this year but since RW has been here, because the talent as it relates to a passing game has been low since he got here.

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2014/11/6/716 ... elp-bandit

Russell Wilson has had plenty of talent surrounding him over the years, especially in 2013. Golden Tate is a top five wide receiver this year (Detroit is 12th in pass attempts last time I checked), Miller was considered an elite tight end in Oakland, and Baldwin as a slot receiver is top 5 in the league (seriously his a damn good slot wide receiver). The special teams and turnovers consistently gave the offense short fields, and Marshawn Lynch of course had a pretty decent year. On paper that offense should have been much better than it was. I do not want to hear the no talent argument from you. I'm talking about his overall body of work here.

I mentioned this before, but during the Wilson era the Seahawks have never won a game that the opposing team scores above 24 points. Something has been broken with this offense, and it isn't just the offensive line. Russell Wilson is a decent QB, but I'm starting to suspect he's part of the problem. He doesn't make many mistakes, and he can pick up first downs with his legs, he does step up during crucial parts of the game -- but as a pure passer I'm seeing some issues that I'm not sure will ever be ironed out.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think we'll ever see an elite offense under Russell Wilson.

Dude do not address me, I should never have responded to you, nothing you say is even remotely accurate.

Is it not true that Golden Tate is top 5 in receiving yards this year? Is it also not true that Zach Miller was considered a top 10 tight end before coming to Seattle? Is it also not true that Doug Baldwin has been Mr. reliable as a slot receiver? Is it not true that a QB that gets rid of the ball quickly makes an offensive line look better?

 

[-The Glove-]

Basically what I am wondering is if we have a game manager vs. a guy who can actually produce. I'm starting to have doubts about his playing style being conduce to having a productive offense.

Then you have not been watching for the last 2.5 years with your eyes open then. There are issues here, but what Rw has done with the significant lack of talent compared to what other top QBs gave around them is incredible.

You should read the article and not just think about this year but since RW has been here, because the talent as it relates to a passing game has been low since he got here.

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2014/11/6/716 ... elp-bandit

Russell Wilson has had plenty of talent surrounding him over the years, especially in 2013. Golden Tate is a top five wide receiver this year (Detroit is 12th in pass attempts last time I checked), Miller was considered an elite tight end in Oakland, and Baldwin as a slot receiver is top 5 in the league (seriously his a damn good slot wide receiver). The special teams and turnovers consistently gave the offense short fields, and Marshawn Lynch of course had a pretty decent year. On paper that offense should have been much better than it was. I do not want to hear the no talent argument from you. I'm talking about his overall body of work here.

I mentioned this before, but during the Wilson era the Seahawks have never won a game that the opposing team scores above 24 points. Something has been broken with this offense, and it isn't just the offensive line. Russell Wilson is a decent QB, but I'm starting to suspect he's part of the problem. He doesn't make many mistakes, and he can pick up first downs with his legs, he does step up during crucial parts of the game -- but as a pure passer I'm seeing some issues that I'm not sure will ever be ironed out.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think we'll ever see an elite offense under Russell Wilson.

Dude do not address me, I should never have responded to you, nothing you say is even remotely accurate.

Is it not true that Golden Tate is top 5 in receiving yards this year? Is it also not true that Zach Miller was considered a top 10 tight end before coming to Seattle? Is it also not true that Doug Baldwin has been Mr. reliable as a slot receiver? Is it not true that a QB that gets rid of the ball quickly makes an offensive line look better?

Is it not true that Golden Tate's current team is consistently one of the most pass-happy teams in the league.
Is it not true that Zach Miller is also one of the best blocking TE's in the league and has been relegated to being an extra linemen because of our porous OL.
The one about Baldwin, I admit, I don't get. RW trusts Baldwin to be "Mr. Reliable" hence all of the ridiculous 3rd and sideline throws to him.
Is it not true that a horrible offensive line makes a QB hold onto the ball much longer?

 

[RiverDog]

I don't know man but 62.8% on passing is pretty accurate to me.

Not according to Pete, who set a goal of a 70% completion percentage for Russell in the type of offense we run.