Immune from criticism

Maelstrom787

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Slowdown brother... This is his first year without Pete and if you're not familiar, but Pete had draft & roster control for the longest time.. Give John & Mike time to develop before you call for hi head...
I'm not as harsh on JS as many are, but he absolutely does not get a pass just because he had a boss.

If JS wasn't a real GM, he would've left.

Point. Blank. Period.
 

Subzero717

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You fire Schneider you fire Mcdonald as well. New gm will bring in his own guy.
But Schneider and Mcdonald should both be fired if the team doesn't improve this year.
Unless they bring in someone MM is familiar with. Or at least share the same philosophy. Issue is, MM
We didn't value guards before this either.

We could still pound the goddamn rock.

It's coaching.

Schottenheimer and Solari coached league-leading rushing attacks in 2018 and 2019 with an out of position Pocic, Germain Ifedi, and DJ Fluker starting. They traded out Pocic for a past-prime Iupati in 2019.

It's. Coaching.
That's 2 first rounders and a 2nd rounder. The appeal of Pocic was he could play all over the line (I think that's overrated) so I'm not sure how he was out of position.
 

Maelstrom787

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Unless they bring in someone MM is familiar with. Or at least share the same philosophy. Issue is, MM

That's 2 first rounders and a 2nd rounder. The appeal of Pocic was he could play all over the line (I think that's overrated) so I'm not sure how he was out of position.
Laken Tomlinson is a first rounder. Doesn't really matter in terms of his performance as a pro.

My point is that competent, seasoned coaches don't have this issue where NOTHING works on the ground just because their OL doesn't have a high talent ceiling.
 

Ozzy

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We did have years under Pete where we couldn't run the ball. We had one year where Russ had like all but 1 of our total touchdowns where we flirted with an all time bad running game. Russ played well that year which goes against another narrative but I digress. My point is we have had multiple years where the running game sucked before Mike came on board. I hate that it isn't clicking as much as anyone but if I was patient with Pete in that regard then I need to be patient with Mike and his staff too, at least that's how I see it.

They need to get much better no one disputes that. I'm not sure with the current line they can get a ton better but maybe Grubb can figure it out. I hope so.
 

Maelstrom787

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We did have years under Pete where we couldn't run the ball. We had one year where Russ had like all but 1 of our total touchdowns where we flirted with an all time bad running game. Russ played well that year which goes against another narrative but I digress. My point is we have had multiple years where the running game sucked before Mike came on board. I hate that it isn't clicking as much as anyone but if I was patient with Pete in that regard then I need to be patient with Mike and his staff too, at least that's how I see it.

They need to get much better no one disputes that. I'm not sure with the current line they can get a ton better but maybe Grubb can figure it out. I hope so.
They did have 2017, but I didn't want to bring it up for a couple reasons.

1. The running backs all being injured or terrible really hurt them that year.

2. They cleaned house on the offensive side of the ball after that year, which... is controversial but I'd be in favor of if this doesn't turn around.
 

Ozzy

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They did have 2017, but I didn't want to bring it up for a couple reasons.

1. The running backs all being injured or terrible really hurt them that year.

2. They cleaned house on the offensive side of the ball after that year, which... is controversial but I'd be in favor of if this doesn't turn around.
I don’t want to turn this into another Russ thread but he played incredible that year considering the run game was terrible which is another argument that gets repeated by knownone and others.

Regardless let’s hope they find magic in a bottle
 
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Maelstrom787

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I don’t want to turn this into another Russ thread but he played incredible that year considering the run game was terrible which is another argument that gets repeated by knownone and others.

Regales let’s hope they find magic in a bottle
He did fine work that year, yeah. It was a tough assignment. His prime, for me, was 2017 through 2019.
 

onanygivensunday

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About our guards... specifically Bradford and Haynes... WHO PUT THE FEEDBAGS ON THEIR FACES AND HASN'T TAKEN THEM OFF.

Bradford and Haynes are both carrying about 25 to 30 lb. of useless fat in their guts.

When they are embarrassingly beaten immediately after the snap, they're typically beaten with quickness/agility. They can't react quick enough. Thery can't move their feet to counter what the DTs are doing. It's ridiculous! LOSE THE GUT... AND BUILD UP STRENGTH IN YOUR LEGS TO COUNTER A BULL RUSH. WORK ON GAINING QUICKNESS AND AGILITY. STOP STUFFING YOUR FACE.
 

AgentDib

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The appeal of Pocic was he could play all over the line (I think that's overrated) so I'm not sure how he was out of position.
It's interesting how we can see that so differently. My recollection is that we drafted Pocic, LSU's starting center for three years, as a hedge against Britt leaving and then re-signed Britt to a big extension a month later and had no place to play Pocic. That led to us trying to play him all over with poor results from 2017-2019. He struggled between LG and RG with fewer snaps in each year. Then we finally started him at center after Britt left in 2020 and he had two decent years, then has put together three good seasons as the Browns center.
 

ZagHawk

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I'm so sick of all the back-and-forth about Geno and MM. When does THIS GUY start getting some blame??

View attachment 67958

We moved on from ME3. We moved on from Pete. He's the only constant. I'm so sick and tired of this team getting pushed and shoved around and looking like complete garbage in the trenches. This is all on John. Sure, they have good individual pieces (who doesn't?). But this team is soft AF where it really counts. And the depth sucks too!

With the new regime, he starts over too. But make no mistake, he is number 1 to blame for lack of talent on the field moving forward, because we truly don't know how much of the drafting before was on Pete. The existing team is what is remaining of Pete's team. So the next 2-3 years will be the result of JS's moves and the praise and criticism will now go to him for sure (for talent)
 

Glasgow Seahawk

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Talk of firing MM and JS is nuts. Lets not be the Browns or Jets here and fire coaches willy nilly. It just creates a toxic cycle. Barring Sean McVey what's the win average for rookie coaches? 6/7 wins i'd guess? Hes got 4 already. It's a rookie coaching staff still learning. They'll make mistakes, some may get cut in the off season if it isn't working out. MM possibly needs 2 maybe a 3rd year depending on progress in year 2 and some more drafts.

People saying we shouldn't have moved on from Pete, was there any evidence he was turning it around? We had done absolutely nothing in the play offs for years. Our defence was near the bottom for years and showed no signs of being fixed. We were stuck in mediocrity. I love Pete for all he done but it was time.

JS isn't immune from criticism. They really need to evaluate how they measure talent in the trenches both in the draft and how they spend resources on it in FA.
 

hox

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I'm not as harsh on JS as many are, but he absolutely does not get a pass just because he had a boss.

If JS wasn't a real GM, he would've left.

Point. Blank. Period.
JS had a ton of leeway. Pete was no authoritarian. His management style was more laissez faire than it was disciplinarian or authoritarian.

It was a collaborative partnership between the two where they came to a consensus, for the most part. That was the dynamic.

Having great guard play is foundational to having a great run game. Hutch anyone?

JS neglect in this area is befuddling to me. He has constantly overlooked this position in the draft while picking up band aid players like Tomlinson who has not been good here. Bradford was supposed to be a road grader. He's getting blown up on almost every run play.
 
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James in PA

James in PA

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With the new regime, he starts over too. But make no mistake, he is number 1 to blame for lack of talent on the field moving forward, because we truly don't know how much of the drafting before was on Pete. The existing team is what is remaining of Pete's team. So the next 2-3 years will be the result of JS's moves and the praise and criticism will now go to him for sure (for talent)
One of my biggest concerns with John relates to his previous comments on how he values interior o linemen. Those were his words, not Pete's. There's a difference between accumulating good players and roster building. And if he is always going to be drafting guards in later rounds or bargain bin shopping in FA, we're always going to be where we're at now. One of the few potential blue chippers we do have in K9 is going to waste because of John's philosophy.
 

hox

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There's a difference between accumulating good players and roster building.
Yes roster building is acquiring complementary players that fit within an offensive or defensive scheme and philosophy. Like what John Lynch has been doing for years, and why they've had a lot of success.

Accumulating good players is just drafting BPA with no clear vision in mind? At least that vision isn't clear to me.
 

Subzero717

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Laken Tomlinson is a first rounder. Doesn't really matter in terms of his performance as a pro.

My point is that competent, seasoned coaches don't have this issue where NOTHING works on the ground just because their OL doesn't have a high talent ceiling.
My point was we had somewhat of an investment in it. Fluker came with Solari.

Tomlinson was awful last year. We had every intent of rolling with Harris/Olu at C.

I think it's a multi layered issue. Investment being one. Coaching being another.
 

toffee

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My point was we had somewhat of an investment in it. Fluker came with Solari.

Tomlinson was awful last year. We had every intent of rolling with Harris/Olu at C.

I think it's a multi layered issue. Investment being one. Coaching being another.
If we would to trust PPF, individuals on our OL are getting good grades:

Cross (83.7 overall, pass blk 69.7 , run blk 82.8)
Laken (66.3 overall, pass blk 62.8, run blk 68.4)
Connor (63.1 overall, pass blk 62.2, run blk 71.3)

Frankly the left side read like a good OL, let's compare to the premier OL from Detriot:

LT Decker - 68.3, 71, 45.8
LG Glasgow - 59.3, 62.9, 57.7
C Ragnow - 81.4, 56.8, 90 2
RG zeitlrr - 76.7, 66.6, 75
RT Sewell - 86.7, 80.6, 86

Their left side and ours, PFF grading wise, is similar. Our problem are the RG and RT, with RG being the most disappointing. We can at least blame injuries on RT situation.

To my untrained eyes, the bigger problem is that our OL isn't playing as a unit; they're pretty disjointed. Heck, I could say that about the whole offense.
 
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knownone

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If we would to trust PPF, individuals on our OL are getting good grades:

Cross (83.7 overall, pass blk 69.7 , run blk 82.8)
Laken (66.3 overall, pass blk 62.8, run blk 68.4)
Connor (63.1 overall, pass blk 62.2, run blk 71.3)

Frankly that read like a good OL, Our problem are the RG and RT, with RG being the most disappointing. We can at least blame injuries on RT situation.

The bigger problem to my untrained eyes, our OL aren't playing as an unit, pretty disjointed. Heck, in could say that about the whole offense.
This is one reason people think the issue is Grubb. By PFF's metrics, Seattle's O-line is filled with guys who've been good run blockers in the past. So why are we so bad at running the ball? And you mentioned it; some dysfunction on offense goes deeper than just the talent on the field.
 

toffee

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This is one reason people think the issue is Grubb. By PFF's metrics, Seattle's O-line is filled with guys who've been good run blockers in the past. So why are we so bad at running the ball? And you mentioned it; some dysfunction on offense goes deeper than just the talent on the field.
I have been calling for Grubb to give up play calling, I suspect that he never earned the respect of the offense players in camp, and he has no experience is handling a bunch of VERY RICH young men.
 

Subzero717

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If we would to trust PPF, individuals on our OL are getting good grades:

Cross (83.7 overall, pass blk 69.7 , run blk 82.8)
Laken (66.3 overall, pass blk 62.8, run blk 68.4)
Connor (63.1 overall, pass blk 62.2, run blk 71.3)

Frankly the left side read like a good OL, let's compare to the premier OL from Detriot:

LT Decker - 68.3, 71, 45.8
LG Glasgow - 59.3, 62.9, 57.7
C Ragnow - 81.4, 56.8, 90 2
RG zeitlrr - 76.7, 66.6, 75
RT Sewell - 86.7, 80.6, 86

Their left side and ours, PFF grading wise, is similar. Our problem are the RG and RT, with RG being the most disappointing. We can at least blame injuries on RT situation.

To my untrained eyes, the bigger problem is that our OL isn't playing as a unit; they're pretty disjointed. Heck, I could say that about the whole offense.
I don't necessarily trust PFF. People tend to blow them off unless it supports their argument. I'm not saying that's what you are doing. Just in general.

Our line is a mess. That's what my eyes tell me. I think Cross is the lone outlier.
 
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