Historically speaking...

[Maelstrom787]

Russell Wilson's worst moments continually crop up when the team isn't rushing well - whether due to futility, or simply a lack of attempts.

2017. League worst rushing. Suck.

2020. Let Russ Cook. Works until teams simply park their safeties high. Implosion.

How about when the pound the rock well?

2018. Best rushing team in the league. Russell Wilson has his most efficient season to date, with borderline absurdly great stats when throwing deep. High YPA.

2019. Much of the same. Great rushing game (until injuries really start to kill it) and Russ is the King of the City.

2015. Thomas Rawls goes on a friggin' absurd tear. Russ absolutely demolishes during that timeframe.


The disservice to Russ isn't failing to build around him - it's failing to free him up to do what he's actually good at by pounding the damn rock. Convince me otherwise.

 

[rcaido]

Maybe thats why they drafted Penny. Our RB has been injury bad luck for years. Off season maybe go for two starting rb. Hyde and Carson were decent last year.

Metcalf seem like he is going to be a problem, maybe trade him for draft picks.

 

[Mizak]

Russell Wilson's worst moments continually crop up when the team isn't rushing well - whether due to futility, or simply a lack of attempts.

2017. League worst rushing. Suck.

2020. Let Russ Cook. Works until teams simply park their safeties high. Implosion.

How about when the pound the rock well?

2018. Best rushing team in the league. Russell Wilson has his most efficient season to date, with borderline absurdly great stats when throwing deep. High YPA.

2019. Much of the same. Great rushing game (until injuries really start to kill it) and Russ is the King of the City.

2015. Thomas Rawls goes on a friggin' absurd tear. Russ absolutely demolishes during that timeframe.


The disservice to Russ isn't failing to build around him - it's failing to free him up to do what he's actually good at by pounding the damn rock. Convince me otherwise.

WFT, #2 rush defense at the time holds Seahawks to 10 rushes, 18 yards if you take away Russ rushing yards. Saints game. You know, 9 straight rushing attempts that led no where. But you wanna still pound the rock, huh?

 

[Maelstrom787]

Russell Wilson's worst moments continually crop up when the team isn't rushing well - whether due to futility, or simply a lack of attempts.

2017. League worst rushing. Suck.

2020. Let Russ Cook. Works until teams simply park their safeties high. Implosion.

How about when the pound the rock well?

2018. Best rushing team in the league. Russell Wilson has his most efficient season to date, with borderline absurdly great stats when throwing deep. High YPA.

2019. Much of the same. Great rushing game (until injuries really start to kill it) and Russ is the King of the City.

2015. Thomas Rawls goes on a friggin' absurd tear. Russ absolutely demolishes during that timeframe.


The disservice to Russ isn't failing to build around him - it's failing to free him up to do what he's actually good at by pounding the damn rock. Convince me otherwise.

WFT, #2 rush defense at the time holds Seahawks to 10 rushes, 18 yards if you take away Russ rushing yards. Saints game. You know, 9 straight rushing attempts that led no where. But you wanna still pound the rock, huh?

This same line of completely asinine reasoning can be used when describing the overall futility of the passing game.

They need to work with each other. Complimentary football. If you're arguing for one-dimensionality, be my guest, but that just isn't the way to succeed and it especially has never borne out any success for Russell Wilson.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Oh man, one time Russ threw 5 picks against the Packers.

And you still wanna pass the ball, huh?!

:177692:

If you want to have an actual discussion, cool, but if you're gonna pull the "gotcha" crap at least have a coherent point.

 

[OrangeGravy]

Maybe thats why they drafted Penny. Our RB has been injury bad luck for years. Off season maybe go for two starting rb. Hyde and Carson were decent last year.

Metcalf seem like he is going to be a problem, maybe trade him for draft picks.

Something absurd like 7 straight seasons losing at least 1 RB to season ending injury

 

[John63]

Russell Wilson's worst moments continually crop up when the team isn't rushing well - whether due to futility, or simply a lack of attempts.

2017. League worst rushing. Suck.

2020. Let Russ Cook. Works until teams simply park their safeties high. Implosion.

How about when the pound the rock well?

2018. Best rushing team in the league. Russell Wilson has his most efficient season to date, with borderline absurdly great stats when throwing deep. High YPA.

2019. Much of the same. Great rushing game (until injuries really start to kill it) and Russ is the King of the City.

2015. Thomas Rawls goes on a friggin' absurd tear. Russ absolutely demolishes during that timeframe.


The disservice to Russ isn't failing to build around him - it's failing to free him up to do what he's actually good at by pounding the damn rock. Convince me otherwise.

Your premises is good if you look at most great qbs you will see they had a run game also. That said I am not sure this year its just that. The reality is his finger is not 100% yet as PC has said. As to 2020 the 2 high safety thing also started about the time we lost Carson and our run game went down hill.

 

[olyfan63]

Russell's overall game needs a strong running game that defenses have to account for. It's become increasingly clear in hindsight, looking at his periods of greatest success and greatest team achievement.

Back when the Hawks had Lynch and the Read-Option threat of Russell himself running, well, we went to a couple Superb Owls and won one of them. That offense forced defenses into looks and schemes that Russell knew how to read. When Russell's passing is the featured weapon in the offense, he's shown he doesn't read defenses at the Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Drew Brees level, and can't carry a team with his passing against the better NFL defenses when the opponent doesn't fear the Seahawks running game.

Russell also benefits tremendously from an "eraser" elite defense like those SB years. Any QB would.

Building the team around Russell would basically involve building teams with cheap road-grader O-Lines, worse than average pass protection, relying on Russell's scrambling ability, and splurging on defensive talent to have an elite defense. Oh yeah, and a bell-cow running back, or maybe 2, since they tend to get injured. The problem is that paying Russell (cap hit) $37M doesn't leave room for much of that. Oh yes, and Russell would need to accept a salary of around $5M per year to make this work. It was the formula that worked in 2013-2014 seasons.

Russell has ALWAYS needed a pounding rushing attack for his passing to be successful against top-tier NFL defenses, plus a top-tier defense backing him, to win playoff games. Can't make a realistic case for any other approach. Hypothetically, if Russell played in Andy Reid's system, Reid could teach Russell how to read NFL pass defenses, but I have to believe that Bevell, Schotty, and now Waldron have all attempted to do that. One theory is that Russell hasn't seen that there is a problem, believes his approach to reading NFL defenses works fine, thus hasn't made it a priority. Only Russell, Pete, and the OCs past and present know the full truth of the matter.

If Russell has a strong running game backing him, then let him do what he does; he's amazing on deep throws or any throw to Tyler Lockett. He'll still struggle on 3rd downs that are obvious passing situations, and would need to run for first downs more than he does to keep drives alive.

Rebuilding around Russell's strengths means getting him a pounding running game that is a legitimate threat to get multiple first downs in a row on the ground. (Tom Brady needed Leonard Fournette's emergence to win in Tampa) Getting Russell the best pass-pro blocking line in the NFL wouldn't help him that much and would cripple spending on the defensive side, leaving Russell in shootouts he might sometimes lose to QBs like Nick Mullins, Taylor Heinicke, Colt McCoy, Taysom Hill, or whatever backup the Hawks D makes look like an all-pro that day.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Russell Wilson is a player that lives and dies by the play action pass. It's always been huge point of emphasis in Carroll's offenses. Wilson is not the type of QB that can march down the field methodically. Some QB's can proxy their run games through well structured passing games. Our offense is not this and it will never be this under Carroll and Wilson. For as good as Wilson has been, he's never been good at those quick timing patterns -- it's always been a huge weakness in his game. I trust him more to thread the needle on an insane deep pass down the sidelines than I do a simple slant.

The run game is very important to highlight Wilson's skillset. As long as teams keep running two high shells and Tampa 2 defenses, Wilson will struggle. In order to defeat this you have to establish the run or attack the seams with the TE. We've seemed to have issues implementing TE's in the offense under Carroll/Wilson.

Our run game is/has been a huge issue for awhile. I absolutely do not get Schneider/Carroll's philosophy here. In order to run effectively, especially between the tackles you NEED a strong interior line. Seattle keeps hiring castoffs or switching the positions of our starters or passing up some real offensive line talent. It simply doesn't seem to be a priority for them. Switching Lewis to LG when he was excelling at RG really seemed like a foolish move. Especially since the guy we brought in played a majority of his career at LG.

Or, why don't we talk about the utter refusal of Carroll to take care of the center position? Are you really going to tell me that Carroll/JS thought that Fuller and Procic were going to get the job done? Our QB asked for help on the offensive line and we failed him at every turn. Carroll, if you want to pound the ball, at some point you need to stop neglecting your line. Drafting first round running backs won't amount to anything if you don't open up lanes. Instead we pass up on people such as Creed Humphries and draft DEE ESKRIDGE, AN UNDERSIZED, INJURY PRONE WR -- A DUDE THAT HAS BEEN HURT EVERY SINGLE YEAR HE'S BEEN IN COLLEGE FOOTBALL.

Another huge issue is we have an extremely basic running game. Whenever our guys line up, I know exactly where the ball is going to go. There is no subterfuge, it's just a meat and potatoes running game. There has been some stretches where we've ran the same exact run play five times in a row for no gain. We're not putting our guys in good positions, the hubris of Carroll never ceases to amaze me. Sometimes basic is not the answer.

 

[hinton]

Some great points in here.

Despite all the overreactions flying around the place we will still realistically have bothPC and RW in the 2022 season, and I expect us to compete for the division title again, if:

1. They address the OL.
I'm not sure why we haven't added more at C, I can only assume they believe they saw starting potential in Pocic, but it doesn't seem to be working. Jackson and Lewis should be find at Gs, but we need some new Ts and depth.

2. Get more RBs
When Carson is healthy he's a beast, but at this point he can't be relied on. Next season if we have a rotation of Carson, Dallas, homer + a draft pick or two we should be fine.

3. Tweak the philosophy.
Can we for the love of god bring back regular use of a FB? Not only does it help in the run game, but Mike Rob was a great check-down between the hashes that RW trusted. It amazes me that RW isn't pounding the table for a good FB, it's the kind of chess-piece he should be able to maximise.
I also really miss the I-formation.

 

[AROS]

Russell's overall game needs a strong running game that defenses have to account for. It's become increasingly clear in hindsight, looking at his periods of greatest success and greatest team achievement.

Back when the Hawks had Lynch and the Read-Option threat of Russell himself running, well, we went to a couple Superb Owls and won one of them. That offense forced defenses into looks and schemes that Russell knew how to read. When Russell's passing is the featured weapon in the offense, he's shown he doesn't read defenses at the Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Drew Brees level, and can't carry a team with his passing against the better NFL defenses when the opponent doesn't fear the Seahawks running game.

Russell also benefits tremendously from an "eraser" elite defense like those SB years. Any QB would.

Building the team around Russell would basically involve building teams with cheap road-grader O-Lines, worse than average pass protection, relying on Russell's scrambling ability, and splurging on defensive talent to have an elite defense. Oh yeah, and a bell-cow running back, or maybe 2, since they tend to get injured. The problem is that paying Russell (cap hit) $37M doesn't leave room for much of that. Oh yes, and Russell would need to accept a salary of around $5M per year to make this work. It was the formula that worked in 2013-2014 seasons.

Russell has ALWAYS needed a pounding rushing attack for his passing to be successful against top-tier NFL defenses, plus a top-tier defense backing him, to win playoff games. Can't make a realistic case for any other approach. Hypothetically, if Russell played in Andy Reid's system, Reid could teach Russell how to read NFL pass defenses, but I have to believe that Bevell, Schotty, and now Waldron have all attempted to do that. One theory is that Russell hasn't seen that there is a problem, believes his approach to reading NFL defenses works fine, thus hasn't made it a priority. Only Russell, Pete, and the OCs past and present know the full truth of the matter.

If Russell has a strong running game backing him, then let him do what he does; he's amazing on deep throws or any throw to Tyler Lockett. He'll still struggle on 3rd downs that are obvious passing situations, and would need to run for first downs more than he does to keep drives alive.

Rebuilding around Russell's strengths means getting him a pounding running game that is a legitimate threat to get multiple first downs in a row on the ground. (Tom Brady needed Leonard Fournette's emergence to win in Tampa) Getting Russell the best pass-pro blocking line in the NFL wouldn't help him that much and would cripple spending on the defensive side, leaving Russell in shootouts he might sometimes lose to QBs like Nick Mullins, Taylor Heinicke, Colt McCoy, Taysom Hill, or whatever backup the Hawks D makes look like an all-pro that day.

Excellent post! Well done. NET ain't quite dead yet. :2thumbs:

 

[jamescasey1124]

This is true, but look around the league. No qb plays extremely well without showing you they can also run and run effectively. When you go one dimensional it is easy to stop. Period. Run or pass. That is why it is imperative to not let any team get plus two td lead. If that happens you are forced to go one dimensional and continue passing into a defense that knows you will do it.

Look at rams game two days ago. Had a successful heavy running drive with penny and Dallas that ending in a Dallas td. They went away from the run the rest of first half. Never were as dominant the rest of the game. That drive was so easy. So efficient and they decide to just go away from it. Then when they do run it is shotgun...no fullback and a dive mostly. No diversity in play calling. Simple play calling and switching up so defenses can't identify run or pass. Seahawks don't do it.

That's why I know blame isn't completely on russ. He is just executing plays mostly.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

The disservice to Russ isn't failing to build around him - it's failing to free him up to do what he's actually good at by pounding the damn rock. Convince me otherwise.

I'd say more like bad luck or poor judgement with resigning Carson, a RB that has a history of serious injuries, and bad luck with the Penny pick (or poor scouting).

"Disservice" implies Pete and John haven't tried to be a good running offense.

Obviously that's not true, Pete gets criticized for this philosophy, so he's certainly not willfully intentional about not having a successful run attack.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Russell Wilson is not playing well because he is coming back from injury is almost certainly not 100%.

Full stop.

This is ridiculous.

He played fine and was one of the most accurate QBs in the league for almost 10 years.

This year is an outlier. So examples from this year have little to no validity.

Also, Wilson played fine when we had no run game regularly. You don't remember all these 4th quarter comebacks where Wilson marched up the field in under 2 minutes? Or drives to close out the half that led to TDs?

(Weird takes on Wilson lately, maybe just to make people feel less frustrated if we lose him?)

Before Carson and after Lynch we struggled to find a regular RB. Wilson was still winning games for us.

Wilson does not NEED a run game. He NEEDS a better OL.

He asked for one before the season, was crucified for it, and then gets injured because his line is a little bit better than dog vomit right now.

Carroll historically goes cheap on the line, and when we do put draft resources into the line we regularly seem to get poor to middling results.

Then our QB gets injured, loses accuracy (likely as a consequence) and everyone is coming up with theories for why Wilson isn't a top QB anymore. Just a weird coincidence his production falls off the year he gets injured. Whatever.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Russell Wilson is not playing well because he is coming back from injury is almost certainly not 100%.

Full stop.

This is ridiculous.

He played fine and was one of the most accurate QBs in the league for almost 10 years.

This year is an outlier. So examples from this year have little to no validity.

Also, Wilson played fine when we had no run game regularly. You don't remember all these 4th quarter comebacks where Wilson marched up the field in under 2 minutes? Or drives to close out the half that led to TDs?

(Weird takes on Wilson lately, maybe just to make people feel less frustrated if we lose him?)

Before Carson and after Lynch we struggled to find a regular RB. Wilson was still winning games for us.

Wilson does not NEED a run game. He NEEDS a better OL.

He asked for one before the season, was crucified for it, and then gets injured because his line is a little bit better than dog vomit right now.

Carroll historically goes cheap on the line, and when we do put draft resources into the line we regularly seem to get poor to middling results.

Then our QB gets injured, loses accuracy (likely as a consequence) and everyone is coming up with theories for why Wilson isn't a top QB anymore. Just a weird coincidence his production falls off the year he gets injured. Whatever.

Do you want to prove it with anything other than platitudes and vague narratives about comebacks?

Because his poorer moments are pretty clearly coorelated with poor offensive rushing performance. This is obvious when looking back at other years.

He'll never have a top OL. Sacks are a QB stat these days. Anyone with any clue knows it. The best OL in the league just got spanked around by Seattle's DL. You could put 5 Pro Bowlers on that line and Russ'll take a cool 40 sacks.

Y'know what takes the pressure off?

Rushing the ball.

Anyone arguing otherwise wants Russ to play to his worst attributes - the ones that get him planted into the ground.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Under 2 min drives regularly are majority passing. If you go back and watch enough Seahawk games you will see this.

Yes, all QBs will benefit if they have a good run game - but the concept that Wilson 'struggles' when he has no run game is frankly flawed. Is his effectiveness lower? Sure. As are most QBs when the defense does not have to account for the run.

Is he ineffective as a QB without a run game? Hardly. Does a better run game help him? Sure.

Does Wilson struggle when we are not running enough anyway? Teams throw the ball more when they are behind.

So games, where we are behind, will naturally balloon passing attempts vs run attempts. Teams that fall behind lose the ability to run the ball. So is he struggling because he is passing too much and not running the ball? Or is he passing too much and not running the ball because he (& the team) is struggling?

If the opposing team can pin their ears back to just rush the passer? You are going to struggle as a QB, especially with this godawful 2ndhand abortion of an offensive line.

(Also, our line is one of the worst in the league in time to pressure. At least last year. Defending this line is laughable. There was a reason Wilson called it out in preseason. He doesn't need a 'top OL' but moderate to average would be incredible because this line is trash.)



Look at the Rams playoff game last year. We would run the ball (with Homer or Dallas) and get 1, maybe 2 yards. Then we would be forced to pass the ball 2 more times to try to get the 1st down. We passed more than we ran, but not because we were *not running enough* we passed because the run game was so abysmal it put us regularly in long 2nd and 3rd to go situations.

And after the game, groups of morons clamored 'we did not run enough' even though running the ball put us into giant holes repeatedly. We didn't run the ball enough because we couldn't. But the root of the struggle was godawful gameplans from our coaches...though Wilson admittedly wasn't great either.

 

[hinton]

The thing that gets constantly overlooked when running the ball is that you're taking physical shots at the opposing D.

Even if early in the game the runs are getting a lowly 1-3 yards they are taking their toll on the opposition. By the time the game is in Q3 those 1-3 runs are regularly becoming 4-6 yard runs, and the play-action game is wide open.

Lynch was an absolute beast, but his first half numbers are poor compared to his second half numbers. When the D started to tire though Beast just took over games.

If the front 7 can't stop the run anymore and the D needs to bring an 8th player into the box, good luck, because RW is gonna start dropping bombs.

Contrast a short run, or even no gain, (but you're punching the opponent in the mouth) to an incomplete pass. The script is flipped, you go from the O being the bully on running plays to the D being the bully on passing plays. If you go pass-heavy and fail then i's pretty much game over. If you balance the run with the pass you're setting yourself up for success later in the game.

 

[Elemas]

Agree with many points about a complimentary approach.

Russ has his deficiencies but, what player doesn’t? We’ve been fortunate to have one of the best in the game these last several years.

I’d like to see more O-Line focus. Additionally, we need a dependable back. I was getting all giddy thinking we were going to grab AJ Dillon when we had the chance but…whatever. Just felt like CC was becoming too injury prone.

 

[LTH]

Russell Wilson is not playing well because he is coming back from injury is almost certainly not 100%.

Full stop.

This is ridiculous.

He played fine and was one of the most accurate QBs in the league for almost 10 years.

This year is an outlier. So examples from this year have little to no validity.

Also, Wilson played fine when we had no run game regularly. You don't remember all these 4th quarter comebacks where Wilson marched up the field in under 2 minutes? Or drives to close out the half that led to TDs?

(Weird takes on Wilson lately, maybe just to make people feel less frustrated if we lose him?)

Before Carson and after Lynch we struggled to find a regular RB. Wilson was still winning games for us.

Wilson does not NEED a run game. He NEEDS a better OL.

He asked for one before the season, was crucified for it, and then gets injured because his line is a little bit better than dog vomit right now.

Carroll historically goes cheap on the line, and when we do put draft resources into the line we regularly seem to get poor to middling results.

Then our QB gets injured, loses accuracy (likely as a consequence) and everyone is coming up with theories for why Wilson isn't a top QB anymore. Just a weird coincidence his production falls off the year he gets injured. Whatever.

I think every QB needs a running game. If a D makes a team one dimensional it's usually a long day. Teams that are successful run the ball but more importantly have balance.

Thats my take


LTH

 

[scutterhawk]

The thing that gets constantly overlooked when running the ball is that you're taking physical shots at the opposing D.

Even if early in the game the runs are getting a lowly 1-3 yards they are taking their toll on the opposition. By the time the game is in Q3 those 1-3 runs are regularly becoming 4-6 yard runs, and the play-action game is wide open.

Lynch was an absolute beast, but his first half numbers are poor compared to his second half numbers. When the D started to tire though Beast just took over games.

If the front 7 can't stop the run anymore and the D needs to bring an 8th player into the box, good luck, because RW is gonna start dropping bombs.

Contrast a short run, or even no gain, (but you're punching the opponent in the mouth) to an incomplete pass. The script is flipped, you go from the O being the bully on running plays to the D being the bully on passing plays. If you go pass-heavy and fail then i's pretty much game over. If you balance the run with the pass you're setting yourself up for success later in the game.

^Agreed^
I think what some folks in here are overlooking, is that with Russ not being able to stave off Defensive attacks for THREE QUARTERS of the games anymore, I mean yes, as he gains experience, the game might slow down for him, but DEFENSES are NOT, our Opponents are drafting younger & faster Anti-Quarterbacks.
Anyone who believes that Wilson doesn't need a decent Run SUPPORT game to help take the constant speedy pressures, Hits & Pounding Sacks that are being laid on him for the first 45, to 50 minutes, and then believing that he'll just be EXACTLY like the YOUNGER RUSS that USED to be able to work his magic for the LAST 5 or 6 minutes? oh hell no!
I do agree that Pete should have made finding a LOT BETTER player @ Center a priority, so that is a screw-up on his part.
Blocking TE's. w/maybe a decent Fullback that can also BLOCK would most certainly HELP with some of our O-Line woes but finding a good Center should have been his FIRST pick in the 2021 Draft.
Running plays are an ABSOLUTE NECESSITY, but that too requires help from a DECENT BLOCKING O-Line.
Hell, if games were only like 5 or 10 minutes, Russ could MAYBE come through with a couple of 2-minute drills to make short work of some Defenses, but he'd have to go against FRESH Defenses that haven't been worn to a frazzle by a pounding Run game, so there is that to be factored in, eh?