EPL 2014-15 Season

[Blueboy]

 

[SeatownJay]

QPR can't catch a friggin break.

 

[Hawkspur]

Thought I would add this here for discussion:

http://screamer.deadspin.com/eden-h...-great-player-can-lo-1696044873/+billyhaisley

This quote has me thinking (in terms of US soccer as well):

"The more players like Hazard dazzle fans with immeasurable but eminently real skills, the easier it is for others to follow in their footsteps. Learning to appreciate what it is about Hazard and Özil that makes them great might even allow England to create a couple such players of their own."

Bollocks. There are always good players, it doesn't necessarily make everyone else better. England are still too stuck in their ways as far as what they think a footballer should be. We've had some immensely talented players over the years, Gazza, Linkeker, Rooney, etc. Now we've some young lads the likes of Sterling, Ibe, Barkley, Shaw, Kane, etc. The problem is always the same one - the international team managers are shite and they keep trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

They'll be lucky to get past the group stages next year with Hodgson.

As much as he drove me nuts by the end at Spurs, I think Redknapp should have got the job. I doubt they would have won the World Cup but they would almost certainly have played better football.

 

[RApollos]

Seabh and Gate congratulatory high fiving

 

[Uncle Si]

Thought I would add this here for discussion:

http://screamer.deadspin.com/eden-h...-great-player-can-lo-1696044873/+billyhaisley

This quote has me thinking (in terms of US soccer as well):

"The more players like Hazard dazzle fans with immeasurable but eminently real skills, the easier it is for others to follow in their footsteps. Learning to appreciate what it is about Hazard and Özil that makes them great might even allow England to create a couple such players of their own."

Bollocks. There are always good players, it doesn't necessarily make everyone else better. England are still too stuck in their ways as far as what they think a footballer should be. We've had some immensely talented players over the years, Gazza, Linkeker, Rooney, etc. Now we've some young lads the likes of Sterling, Ibe, Barkley, Shaw, Kane, etc. The problem is always the same one - the international team managers are shite and they keep trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

They'll be lucky to get past the group stages next year with Hodgson.

As much as he drove me nuts by the end at Spurs, I think Redknapp should have got the job. I doubt they would have won the World Cup but they would almost certainly have played better football.

For me, the article was more about the skillset that players like Hazard, Suarez, Aguero, (i guess Ozil?) bring to the EPL, and if the English themselves are struggling to develop players like that. In the US National team thread I being up the same thing, in support of Klinsmann, that there is a distinct lack of that type of player in the program.

 

[Hawkspur]

For me, the article was more about the skillset that players like Hazard, Suarez, Aguero, (i guess Ozil?) bring to the EPL, and if the English themselves are struggling to develop players like that. In the US National team thread I being up the same thing, in support of Klinsmann, that there is a distinct lack of that type of player in the program.

I was actually responding to Peaches' comment about the state of the national team related to the manager, but I agree with the article. Spurs players should surely have learned a lot from playing with Modric, who wasn't big, wasn't fast but was clever and skilful as hell. (Watching our midfield on Sunday made how much we miss him painfully clear)

Forgmy money, the major issue with the dearth of talented English footballers is something that seemingly no-one is talking about. I reckon about 70% of English kids are not being given the opportunity to find out that they have talent and/or a love for sports. I've taught in about 30-40 primary schools around Bristol, Bath and London and the amount of sports, and general physical education and activity, is woeful. At most schools the lack of space means each child is only allowed to play football with their friends on one lunchtime per week. After school clubs are hard to get into and run by semi-retarded semi-pro 18 year year olds who have no idea how to make football fun for a 7 year old. Then, any child who does show talent at 7 will be signed by a pro club and will subsequently be dropped 3 years down the line if they are not developing at a sufficient rate. These are clearly talented kids who are being told they don't have what it takes before they hit puberty. I doubt Messi or Modric would have made it through the English system.

England probably should be able to produce players like Hazard, Ozil and Aguero, even Gascoigne and Hoddle, but I suspect that these kids have either given up or not even been given a chance.

 

[Uncle Si]

I was actually responding to Peaches' comment about the state of the national team related to the manager, but I agree with the article. Spurs players should surely have learned a lot from playing with Modric, who wasn't big, wasn't fast but was clever and skilful as hell. (Watching our midfield on Sunday made how much we miss him painfully clear)

Forgmy money, the major issue with the dearth of talented English footballers is something that seemingly no-one is talking about. I reckon about 70% of English kids are not being given the opportunity to find out that they have talent and/or a love for sports. I've taught in about 30-40 primary schools around Bristol, Bath and London and the amount of sports, and general physical education and activity, is woeful. At most schools the lack of space means each child is only allowed to play football with their friends on one lunchtime per week. After school clubs are hard to get into and run by semi-retarded semi-pro 18 year year olds who have no idea how to make football fun for a 7 year old. Then, any child who does show talent at 7 will be signed by a pro club and will subsequently be dropped 3 years down the line if they are not developing at a sufficient rate. These are clearly talented kids who are being told they don't have what it takes before they hit puberty. I doubt Messi or Modric would have made it through the English system.

Very interesting Hawkspur.

I'd say the English issue is in complete contrast to the American one, save one defining negative... coaching.

Here in the states, their are plenty of layers and opportunities for kids to play soccer. A ridiculous amount of levels to move through. However, unlike England, there is not a strong end product (yet, MLS fans, yet).

Two things that hold the US back are its sheer size: very hard to find kids spread out across a nation made of 55 Englands. So while there are anywhere hundreds of thousands of kids playing, and a tiered system that runs 7 levels deep (up to and including the MLS Academy), it is exceedingly difficult to "find" all the talent. The Developmental Academies are located only in the a handful of cities (LA/San Diego, Seattle, Phoenix, Dallas, Denver, Chicago, St. Louis, and now NYC and Orlando). While the Affiliation program is spreading, its a still casting a very shallow net.

Secondly, coaching: our coaches here lack credentials, experience, and overall, inventiveness. We are great at creating the Jozy's and Bradleys. However, Dempsey is the nations most celebrated technical player, and if you here his story, he is a self made player. American coaches, starting at the youth level, need to be more comfortable forgoing "results" on the field and allowing kids to play, which then allows them to develop technically.

We are so obsessed here with wins that we are teaching kids formation and tactical awareness at a young age without letting them "feel" the game. Its fine until they reach a certain high level, where their inabilities as technical players are far more impactful than any tactical understandings we have.

 

[Hawkspur]

For me, the article was more about the skillset that players like Hazard, Suarez, Aguero, (i guess Ozil?) bring to the EPL, and if the English themselves are struggling to develop players like that. In the US National team thread I being up the same thing, in support of Klinsmann, that there is a distinct lack of that type of player in the program.

I was actually responding to Peaches' comment about the state of the national team related to the manager, but I agree with the article. Spurs players should surely have learned a lot from playing with Modric, who wasn't big, wasn't fast but was clever and skilful as hell. (Watching our midfield on Sunday made how much we miss him painfully clear)

Forgmy money, the major issue with the dearth of talented English footballers is something that seemingly no-one is talking about. I reckon about 70% of English kids are not being given the opportunity to find out that they have talent and/or a love for sports. I've taught in about 30-40 primary schools around Bristol, Bath and London and the amount of sports, and general physical education and activity, is woeful. At most schools the lack of space means each child is only allowed to play football with their friends on one lunchtime per week. After school clubs are hard to get into and run by semi-retarded semi-pro 18 year year olds who have no idea how to make football fun for a 7 year old. Then, any child who does show talent at 7 will be signed by a pro club and will subsequently be dropped 3 years down the line if they are not developing at a sufficient rate. These are clearly talented kids who are being told they don't have what it takes before they hit puberty. I doubt Messi or Modric would have made it through the English system.

Very interesting Hawkspur.

I'd say the English issue is in complete contrast to the American one, save one defining negative... coaching.

Here in the states, their are plenty of layers and opportunities for kids to play soccer. A ridiculous amount of levels to move through. However, unlike England, there is not a strong end pr oduct (yet, MLS fans, yet).

Two things that hold the US back are its sheer size: very hard to find kids spread out across a nation made of 55 Englands. So while there are anywhere hundreds of thousands of kids playing, and a tiered system that runs 7 levels deep (up to and including the MLS Academy), it is exceedingly difficult to "find" all the talent. The Developmental Academies are located only in the a handful of cities (LA/San Diego, Seattle, Phoenix, Dallas, Denver, Chicago, St. Louis, and now NYC and Orlando). While the Affiliation program is spreading, its a still casting a very shallow net.

Secondly, coaching: our coaches here lack credentials, experience, and overall, inventiveness. We are great at creating the Jozy's and Bradleys. However, Dempsey is the nations most celebrated technical player, and if you here his story, he is a self made player. American coaches, starting at the youth level, need to be more comfortable forgoing "results" on the field and allowing kids to play, which then allows them to develop technically.

We are so obsessed here with wins that we are teaching kids formation and tactical awareness at a young age without letting them "feel" the game. Its fine until they reach a certain high level, where their inabilities as technical players are far more impactful than any tactical understandings we have.

So, you're really relying on the MLS to become more of a cash cow so that more money can be invested in youth scouting. I can definitely see where the size of the country would make that difficult.

Does politics play a part too? I know that when I played junior cricket, at a high level, obviously exceptional players would often be ignored in favour of players the selector (who was often also a coach) were familiar with and invested in. In fact, we were one of the best junior teams in the heartland of New Zealand sports and the only player I played with the make junior rep (state) teams was Ryan Nelsen who was an absolutely phenomenal cricketer (he was so good that he was one of the first New Zealanders to be offered a professional cricket contract, at the age of 17, ahead of many players touring the world the national team. He was widely ridiculed by our coaches for believing that he would earn more in football; he became the highest earning sportsman in NZ!) but everyone else was ignored. Our coached was pissed about this and managed to schedule games for us against the Canterbury (our state) teams. we won every time. Obvously the system was flawed. Several guys in my team went on to represent New Zealand or play pro sports (volleyball, basketball and rugby).

I also agree wholeheartedly with you that the pressure to learn to play football within a structured, adult supervised system wighout a lot of opportunity to hone your skills and instincts with your mates is problematic.

 

[Uncle Si]

The MLS is doing well enough to support an additional level of development for players.

For example, prior to the MLS Academies, youth player pyramid would look like this:

Rec Soccer-Club/traveling-ODP-College then MLS
Exceptional players would be called to England, but that was literally just a handful

Now, its Rec-Club-DA/MLS Affiliate-MLS Academy/ODP- International Pro/MLS teams. The existence of the DAs and MLS/Affliate system, even in just 5 years, has brought far more attention to the development of American players. It has also increased the interest from International clubs (through a variety of relationships and programs that did not exist recently). Scouting, then just takes place through the natural relationships all these clubs are supposed to have. But again, the size of the nation leaves lots of holes in the net.

More than politics, economics play a huge factor in player selection. I coach an affiliate academy team. My players invest nearly 3 grand a season (9 months, including travel) and this is considered rather affordable in comparison to other similar programs. This system as it is now benefits those in a higher economic tier than those that are not, regardless of talent.

The MLS academies (through sponsorship) are far more affordable (sometimes even free). However, it is still a major road impediment to opening the high level opportunities to all. Clubs are starting to turn towards sponsorship to help fund their teams, but its anything but stable at the moment.

 

[Hawkspur]

That financial aspect is definitely problematic. One of the problems with living in such a vast country I guess. How far do you guys travel? Is it local, Minnesota wide or even beyond? I have a friend who played cricket in Canada when he was living in Kelowna and those guys would travel in the minivan all over southern BC. It was mental!

 

[Uncle Si]

That financial aspect is definitely problematic. One of the problems with living in such a vast country I guess. How far do you guys travel? Is it local, Minnesota wide or even beyond? I have a friend who played cricket in Canada when he was living in Kelowna and those guys would travel in the minivan all over southern BC. It was mental!

The financial is really based on the travel and training. Moreso here in the upper midwest where we have to train indoors for 5 months.

My team (located in the Twin Cities) is required to attend 3 Sporting KC events that can be anywhere from KC itself to Columbus or St. Louis. We have attended "Showcase" tournaments in Phoenix, Orlando and San Diego as well and often travel to Chicago.

I'm sure it's different for every location. However, the DA's are broken into regions, and those regions HAVE to play as a league against each other. Depending on the region, the travel can be extensive (although regionally so). There are a handful of very large showcase events that will attract teams from across the country (Blue Chips in Ohio, Disney in Orlando, Surf Cup in San Diego). We will get some international teams in tournaments as well. The USA Cup hosted here has some decent international attendance.

Remind me to tell you about the U16 Spurs Academy team that came here for a weekend. Eye opening.

 

[Blueboy]

There is a real lack of young English talent, they always do well for England U17/19 but then lose there way.

One of the big problems for me is that even the academies are over run by overseas players. For a fact I can tell you that in an U18 game Palace v Arsenal, Arsenal didn't have one English player, to me that is just wrong.

The biggest problem though in England is that there are 3 entities in English football and they all strive for different things, they are of course, The FA, The Premier League and The Football League. Until these operate under one umbrella it will always just be about financial income..............Just my opinion!

 

[Uncle Si]

There is a real lack of young English talent, they always do well for England U17/19 but then lose there way.

One of the big problems for me is that even the academies are over run by overseas players. For a fact I can tell you that in an U18 game Palace v Arsenal, Arsenal didn't have one English player, to me that is just wrong.

The biggest problem though in England is that there are 3 entities in English football and they all strive for different things, they are of course, The FA, The Premier League and The Football League. Until these operate under one umbrella it will always just be about financial income..............Just my opinion!

Fair enough. Seems contrary to the article, which was the point of posting it.

There is alot of truth in the idea that too many entities with differing goals can slow the process down for all. But what motivation does, say Arsenal, have in supporting the FA or English National team? They get little from it but potentially worn and injured players. And wouldn't a bevy of international talent thrown into the pool only make the players around them better (as the article suggests?)

Academies in England are all a bit different. Liverpool have a very large pool of English players, as does United. clubs like Chelsea and Arsenal prefer to bring them in overseas. They also have differing philosophies on what they do with those players. (develop for first team, develop as investments to sell). There's plenty of opportunities for the kids of England I'd imagine.

The clubs of England only have the responsibility of developing the players they control, and really only to serve one purpose.

The issue really then is why do English players lose their way after the age of 20? Or do they? Peaches thinks its the International coaching that takes over the FA. Could be really. But it's been awhile since "England" produced a true World Class talent that would be stalked by every club in the world. Beckham maybe the last one?

 

[Blueboy]

There is a real lack of young English talent, they always do well for England U17/19 but then lose there way.

One of the big problems for me is that even the academies are over run by overseas players. For a fact I can tell you that in an U18 game Palace v Arsenal, Arsenal didn't have one English player, to me that is just wrong.

The biggest problem though in England is that there are 3 entities in English football and they all strive for different things, they are of course, The FA, The Premier League and The Football League. Until these operate under one umbrella it will always just be about financial income..............Just my opinion!

Fair enough. Seems contrary to the article, which was the point of posting it.

There is alot of truth in the idea that too many entities with differing goals can slow the process down for all. But what motivation does, say Arsenal, have in supporting the FA or English National team? They get little from it but potentially worn and injured players. And wouldn't a bevy of international talent thrown into the pool only make the players around them better (as the article suggests?)

Academies in England are all a bit different. Liverpool have a very large pool of English players, as does United. clubs like Chelsea and Arsenal prefer to bring them in overseas. They also have differing philosophies on what they do with those players. (develop for first team, develop as investments to sell). There's plenty of opportunities for the kids of England I'd imagine.

The clubs of England only have the responsibility of developing the players they control, and really only to serve one purpose.

The issue really then is why do English players lose their way after the age of 20? Or do they? Peaches thinks its the International coaching that takes over the FA. Could be really. But it's been awhile since "England" produced a true World Class talent that would be stalked by every club in the world. Beckham maybe the last one?

I think players lose there way after they get huge money in there pocket, for example, Zeki Fryers played a handful of games for Spurs and was highly rated. He was sold to Palace and on the day he signed for Palace he turns up driving a baby Bentley! This is a guy who has done nothing earns 20/30k a week and has now been loaned out to a championship side. In short. players get a bit of money in there pocket and think they've made it.

 

[NJSeahawk]

Spill the beans about Tottenham, Si!

Also...can ya'll (including my colonial cousins) appreciate this?

 

[Smurf]

Kyle Walker is out with an injury for Spurs game this weekend. Yedlin looks to be in the 18 at the very least for this weekends match. I suspect he will start.

 

[NJSeahawk]

Kyle Walker is out with an injury for Spurs game this weekend. Yedlin looks to be in the 18 at the very least for this weekends match. I suspect he will start.

Thanks Smurf...Si was saying something about the Spurs U-16 before

 

[Uncle Si]

Kyle Walker is out with an injury for Spurs game this weekend. Yedlin looks to be in the 18 at the very least for this weekends match. I suspect he will start.

Thanks Smurf...Si was saying something about the Spurs U-16 before

Sorry boys. Checked out. At Sporting this weekend for soccer

So few years back Spurs brought their 16s to Minnesota for a tournamen . My boys (same age) were excited to be in the same group (not bracket..needed to win to play them..we didn't). Looked up their roster and even found some of the kids on FIFA

So we watched them play this team from NJ... Ranked 3 in the States.

Was a training session for Spurs..16 passes from the back including full field switches between the backs...then this little sprite who talked like Lucky Charms leprechaun would come get the ball from the back, combine 7-8 passes with his level, switch the field, do it again then go forward. Almost always ended in a shot. Tactical and technical quality was ridiculously superior to the Jersey kids. Game ended 4-0, and that's knowing Spurs were training.

Find out a week later this wasn't Spurs 16 Academy. The kids were 14 and had been selected to travel as a tryout. Anyone selected would then be asked to tryout with the full 16s.

So these were 14 year olds trying out to try out with Spurs...and were dismantling one of the better teams in the US who were two years older...

Now this was before the DA system came full throttle.. But still...amazing to watch

 

[NJSeahawk]

Kyle Walker is out with an injury for Spurs game this weekend. Yedlin looks to be in the 18 at the very least for this weekends match. I suspect he will start.

Thanks Smurf...Si was saying something about the Spurs U-16 before

Sorry boys. Checked out. At Sporting this weekend for soccer

So few years back Spurs brought their 16s to Minnesota for a tournamen . My boys (same age) were excited to be in the same group (not bracket..needed to win to play them..we didn't). Looked up their roster and even found some of the kids on FIFA

So we watched them play this team from NJ... Ranked 3 in the States.

Was a training session for Spurs..16 passes from the back including full field switches between the backs...then this little sprite who talked like Lucky Charms leprechaun would come get the ball from the back, combine 7-8 passes with his level, switch the field, do it again then go forward. Almost always ended in a shot. Tactical and technical quality was ridiculously superior to the Jersey kids. Game ended 4-0, and that's knowing Spurs were training.

Find out a week later this wasn't Spurs 16 Academy. The kids were 14 and had been selected to travel as a tryout. Anyone selected would then be asked to tryout with the full 16s.

So these were 14 year olds trying out to try out with Spurs...and were dismantling one of the better teams in the US who were two years older...

Now this was before the DA system came full throttle.. But still...amazing to watch

Jeez...so basically they got owned by 14 year olds...I think that's because footy is on the back burner here, and I always think it will be. Basically you cant sell commericals in footy like football can, and kids all across America go to basketball, football, and baseball first. I would've loved to see that game...lots of portguese, brazilian, south and central american kids live here and play footy, too.

 

[Hawkspur]

That must be pretty impressive to watch. Did any of your team have their dreams shattered or were they pragmatic about it? I used to play a lot of basketball at high school and some of my friends were really, really good. I'd imagine that what you saw would have been similar to if my really talented basketball playing friends went up against a team of the best similar aged kids from Atlanta or Los Angeles etc. The guys I used to strive to emulate on the court getting destroyed.