Elephant in the Room

[pittpnthrs]

I think they need to be quick to open things up this year and instill a sense of urgency here and now.

But let's all not pretend that the LOB came into being with elite players. Many of those players seemed elite because they played here. Maxwell wasn't the same dude on the Eagles. Thomas, Browner, Clemons, Bryant, Smith never achieved remotely the same success elsewhere... the system made the players as much as the players made the system. Sherm, Bam, Bennet, Wagner... all great regardless, but it's not as though 11 HOfer made the D go.


Thing is, with all the hand wringing and calls for firings, it is one week with a significantly different team than last year and a wake up call out the gate that things need to shift for them to succeed. The team can easily improve because we have the talent to do so. And when things click for this group, I think the results can still be very good.

The key will be keeping everybody together and focused on task.

Love, Jones and the new guys need to find their place in the lockerroom as much as on the field. Leadership, accountability are what will turn this, from the coaches down.

But the bend but don't break philosophy on D and 'walk, but don't run' strategy on O needs to go.

Get aggressive. Play angry. Call plays like you have nothing to lose. If they do that, we may all be singing a different tune come the bye.

I understand what you are saying and i'm not arguing with you. I'm really not. The guys that left and didnt have the same success is natural. They didnt have the same talent around them. The LOB was special and manhandled people. Cant do that in todays league. I give Pete all the credit for putting that group together. I still believe he had the inside track and familiarity with the people he drafted due to his college years (and McCloughan of course) and once that was gone the drafts suffered. I'm not confident in Petes and JS's judgment of talent anymore. They seem to miss a lot. Thats why I dismiss the idea that this team build is reminiscent of the LOB days. Its not.

No doubt the team is going to improve and I think they'll win enough games to probably sneak into the playoffs, but thats been the common trend and pattern for years now. I'm not sure how fans can believe it'll change somehow. Its a case of being in limbo until Pete is gone. A lot of fans are perfectly ok with the way things are. I'm not. Its the same old story over and over again.

 

[Shanegotyou11]

Russ needs to get rid of the ball.

 

[Double Tribble]

I've thought about this a lot, and I think the answer is that we need more cowbell.

 

[RiverDog]

I understand what you are saying and i'm not arguing with you. I'm really not. The guys that left and didnt have the same success is natural. They didnt have the same talent around them. The LOB was special and manhandled people. Cant do that in todays league. I give Pete all the credit for putting that group together. I still believe he had the inside track and familiarity with the people he drafted due to his college years (and McCloughan of course) and once that was gone the drafts suffered. I'm not confident in Petes and JS's judgment of talent anymore. They seem to miss a lot. Thats why I dismiss the idea that this team build is reminiscent of the LOB days. Its not.

No doubt the team is going to improve and I think they'll win enough games to probably sneak into the playoffs, but thats been the common trend and pattern for years now. I'm not sure how fans can believe it'll change somehow. Its a case of being in limbo until Pete is gone. A lot of fans are perfectly ok with the way things are. I'm not. Its the same old story over and over again.

I've said the same thing about Pete's college ties being critical to the assembling of the LOB. Take a look at all the west coast guys in those early years: Sherman, Browner, Beast, Bobby, even Earl at Texas. The further he got away from his college connections, the worse our drafts got.

Simply making the playoffs isn't good enough for me anymore. Been there, done that. Nearly half the league makes the playoffs. BFD. I want a SB competitive team, and I'm willing to risk becoming the Lions, Jets, or Browns.

 

[keasley45]

I understand what you are saying and i'm not arguing with you. I'm really not. The guys that left and didnt have the same success is natural. They didnt have the same talent around them. The LOB was special and manhandled people. Cant do that in todays league. I give Pete all the credit for putting that group together. I still believe he had the inside track and familiarity with the people he drafted due to his college years (and McCloughan of course) and once that was gone the drafts suffered. I'm not confident in Petes and JS's judgment of talent anymore. They seem to miss a lot. Thats why I dismiss the idea that this team build is reminiscent of the LOB days. Its not.

No doubt the team is going to improve and I think they'll win enough games to probably sneak into the playoffs, but thats been the common trend and pattern for years now. I'm not sure how fans can believe it'll change somehow. Its a case of being in limbo until Pete is gone. A lot of fans are perfectly ok with the way things are. I'm not. Its the same old story over and over again.

I agree. And I'm not at all saying that things will improve drastically. Just that they can. And, that unlike years past, the make-up and talent on this team is entirely different. Entirely.

So it may be that this time, things end up better than the last few years. The ceiling is certainly higher than it's been in a long time.

 

[warden]

Things will get better. We are a better team then we showed on Sunday.

 

[chrispy]

Bradford???

sorry... Stafford...

 

[pittpnthrs]

So it may be that this time, things end up better than the last few years. The ceiling is certainly higher than it's been in a long time.

I'm not sure that it is. Wilson played out of his mind until a couple years ago and now its Geno Smith. That doesnt instill confidence in me.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

Crazy.

Yes, Geno, didn’t play well.

But did you all forget Aaron Donald was totally wrecking the offensive line?

It was MVP Aaron Donald!

Vintage that was blasting through the line.

Geno not playing well wasnt the only problem.

 

[keasley45]

I'm not sure that it is. Wilson played out of his mind until a couple years ago and now its Geno Smith. That doesnt instill confidence in me.

Have to be careful not to conflate things. Wilson's success and failure have more to do with his own skillset than anything else. Take a gander at his last game and first under Payton. Same dude as ever. When he's given plays to run, he hits the easy reads and struggles with the rest, until he breaks pocket and finds something on his own.

Wilson lived (lives) outside the system. Geno lives within it. Wilson thrived when he was off leash and struggled to stay on it even when it worked. Geno lives on leash and it remains to be seen how much he can create off of it.

I think Geno can create as well, but he's not pushing the issue . I don't know that its because he can't. I think it's because he's just working on script. I also don't think he has that Wilson / Watson gene to just make something out of nothing. Waldron has to give him better options within the play call for him to take things up a notch. Geno's ceiling is very much Shane's cap on creativity.

 

[Rosco]

Bookend tackles really do matter though.

He only had 112 yds for the whole game. Wasn’t like he was putting up 300 yds &4 TDs prior to the injuries

 

[hawks85]

The elephant in the room is that the defense is still the same trash it has been for atleast the past few years. If you blame only Geno for this loss yhen there is no hope for this team to win any games. People only say this is 1 loss but this is the same trash defensive scheme as previous years.

The Defense wasn't that bad in the first half. Second half, if Geno generates drives and move the god damn ball, the defense wouldn't be getting thrashed. Yeah, I said it, we lost that game because Geno generated 3 yards THE ENTIRE SECOND HALF.

 

[Hawk4lyfe]

Ok, I'm reading all these threads and everyone is thrashing the defense, I agree. Let's talk about the real problem here. Geno Smith. 3 total yards in the second half isn't gonna cut it. I don't care if our 2 tackles went out. Smith is being paid to QB this team. Improvise, overcome, and adapt. Geno Smith is 3-7 since that TB last year. Not good. I've always liked Smith, but I'm not sold yet.

Yeah, Smiths career speaks for itself imo. He's not capable of taking this team to the promised land. Neither qb is imo. Nice fairytale last season,but he'll come back to reality this year I think. Be interesting to see how it all goes tho

 

[keasley45]

Yeah, Smiths career speaks for itself imo. He's not capable of taking this team to the promised land. Neither qb is imo. Nice fairytale last season,but he'll come back to reality this year I think. Be interesting to see how it all goes tho

please show me the plays where there were yards to be had on offense in the passing game and Geno failed to get them. If you can do that, than the argument that Geno cant do X or Y carries water.

The play calling in the second half and overall execution was just poor. The Rams knew what was coming and even when they didnt, brought a pass rush that killed any chance we had.

It remains to be seen what Geno can do. But Sunday's game was not an indicator.

Geno executes the plays Waldron sends in. There was little juice to be squeezed from them.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Have to be careful not to conflate things. Wilson's success and failure have more to do with his own skillset than anything else. Take a gander at his last game and first under Payton. Same dude as ever. When he's given plays to run, he hits the easy reads and struggles with the rest, until he breaks pocket and finds something on his own.

Wilson lived (lives) outside the system. Geno lives within it. Wilson thrived when he was off leash and struggled to stay on it even when it worked. Geno lives on leash and it remains to be seen how much he can create off of it.

I think Geno can create as well, but he's not pushing the issue . I don't know that its because he can't. I think it's because he's just working on script. I also don't think he has that Wilson / Watson gene to just make something out of nothing. Waldron has to give him better options within the play call for him to take things up a notch. Geno's ceiling is very much Shane's cap on creativity.

You just explained everything I was pointing out. Yeah Russ appears to be done now, but I wasnt talking about current Wilson. I was talking about the Wilson that could still create and generate wins when the playbook got thrown out and the game plan wasnt working. Pete's philosophy of a controlled offense, playing not to lose rather than playing to win calls for off script play and heroics at times and Wilson had that where Geno has yet to prove he does at this time.

My point is, if Pete couldnt get over the hump with a Wilson in his prime (2015 and on), I highly doubt he can do it with a systematic QB like Geno.

 

[keasley45]

You just explained everything I was pointing out. Yeah Russ appears to be done now, but I wasnt talking about current Wilson. I was talking about the Wilson that could still create and generate wins when the playbook got thrown out and the game plan wasnt working. Pete's philosophy of a controlled offense, playing not to lose rather than playing to win calls for off script play and heroics at times and Wilson had that where Geno has yet to prove he does at this time.

My point is, if Pete couldnt get over the hump with a Wilson in his prime (2015 and on), I highly doubt he can do it with a systematic QB like Geno.

We will see soon enough.

The only point I'll disagree on is the idea that Russ had to go outside the playbook to succeed. The tape just didn't show it, even in his prime years. The things he couldnt do then, he still can't. Him going off script was just his style of play, whether the call from the sideline worked or not. He's had 3 coordinators with the same results here and two HCs / OC's in Denver and ... same Russ.

But the thing he had going for him is that defenses coukdnt gameplan for no gameplan when he was just running around.

We won't get that from Geno. But Brady didn't do it, Stafford doesn't do it, Herbert, etc. Etc. Etc. Those guys had gameplans that worked and learned them inside and out to the point they were pseudo OCs on the field. Can Geno be that guy? Don't know. But I can't say no based on what he's shown. Also can't say yes.

Waldron has shown the ability to script a pretty solid scheme. He just needs to do it and be given the trust to let fly. He and Geno need to mind meld the way every great QB / OC combo does.

AND you're right. That does require a loosening of the reigns, philosophicaly. We did it after the 9ers gane last year. Here's hoping we do it again... and keep it loose.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

You just explained everything I was pointing out. Yeah Russ appears to be done now, but I wasnt talking about current Wilson. I was talking about the Wilson that could still create and generate wins when the playbook got thrown out and the game plan wasnt working. Pete's philosophy of a controlled offense, playing not to lose rather than playing to win calls for off script play and heroics at times and Wilson had that where Geno has yet to prove he does at this time.

My point is, if Pete couldnt get over the hump with a Wilson in his prime (2015 and on), I highly doubt he can do it with a systematic QB like Geno.

The reason for not getting over the hump was, and will be the same if it doesn't happen...........and that reason isn't QB play, with either Russ or Geno.

It's a mediocre to bad defense. That's it, has far less to do with a "systematic" QB, and far more to do with Pete and John's failure to build another SB caliber defense.

You watch any of the other SB contending teams play this past weekend? SF? Dallas? Eagles? Jets and Bills? Some nasty ass stingy defenses flying to the ball, making plays and punching fools in the mouth.

Our defense can't make a damn play, ever. You give up 10-15 play drives over and over for entire games allowing 3rd and long after 3rd and long? Pack it in man, your season's over.

 

[pittpnthrs]

We will see soon enough.

The only point I'll disagree on is the idea that Russ had to go outside the playbook to succeed. The tape just didn't show it, even in his prime years. The things he couldnt do then, he still can't. Him going off script was just his style of play, whether the call from the sideline worked or not. He's had 3 coordinators with the same results here and two HCs / OC's in Denver and ... same Russ.

But the thing he had going for him is that defenses coukdnt gameplan for no gameplan when he was just running around.

We won't get that from Geno. But Brady didn't do it, Stafford doesn't do it, Herbert, etc. Etc. Etc. Those guys had gameplans that worked and learned them inside and out to the point they were pseudo OCs on the field. Can Geno be that guy? Don't know. But I can't say no based on what he's shown. Also can't say yes.

Waldron has shown the ability to script a pretty solid scheme. He just needs to do it and be given the trust to let fly. He and Geno need to mind meld the way every great QB / OC combo does.

AND you're right. That does require a loosening of the reigns, philosophicaly. We did it after the 9ers gane last year. Here's hoping we do it again... and keep it loose.

Throughout the years, the tape didnt show Wilson running for his life and winning games in the fourth quarter with an offense that looked nothing like the first three quarters of bland miscues? We must have been watching different games during that time. Yeah he had different coordinators, but there was always one constant. I dont believe those coordinators could do what they really wanted because of being handcuffed by the head coach. I believe that because i'm still seeing it today.

You are right. We wont get that from Geno and thats why I dont believe the team will go anywhere or do anything going forward. Brady, Stafford, and Herbert never played for Pete so i'm not sure those guys fit your example.

Pete Carroll teams ultimate success depends on a defense that can shut other teams down and keep it close and he hasent had that since the LOB and I dont feel he will ever be able to assemble anything even remotely close, so whats the alternative?

 

[pittpnthrs]

The reason for not getting over the hump was, and will be the same if it doesn't happen...........and that reason isn't QB play, with either Russ or Geno.

It's a mediocre to bad defense. That's it, has far less to do with a "systematic" QB, and far more to do with Pete and John's failure to build another SB caliber defense.

You watch any of the other SB contending teams play this past weekend? SF? Dallas? Eagles? Jets and Bills? Some nasty ass stingy defenses flying to the ball, making plays and punching fools in the mouth.

Our defense can't make a damn play, ever. You give up 10-15 play drives over and over for entire games allowing 3rd and long after 3rd and long? Pack it in man, your season's over.

I agree with you Sarge. My point was being made because of the absence of even a pedestrian defense so you have to look elsewhere for success and thats the offense.

The defense isnt just bad, its awful and seems really far away from being good. How many years has it been now? Yeah, i'll get the - but they are young and need to be given time. I hear that every year and it seems to always take half a season for them to gel and be - average or worse.

Its not working in Seattle and hasent been for a long time. Winning regular season games isnt enough anymore. Past time for a shake up. The biggest positive is we probably only have two more years of it.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I agree with you Sarge. My point was being made because of the absence of even a pedestrian defense so you have to look elsewhere for success and thats the offense.

The defense isnt just bad, its awful and seems really far away from being good. How many years has it been now? Yeah, i'll get the - but they are young and need to be given time. I hear that every year and it seems to always take half a season for them to gel and be - average or worse.

Its not working in Seattle and hasent been for a long time. Winning regular season games isnt enough anymore. Past time for a shake up. The biggest positive is we probably only have two more years of it.

This GM, coach and staff combo isn't equipped to develop a high flying multi-layered offense......like the Rams, Chiefs, etc.

So what you're asking for isn't possible. Not with this staff and GM.

It's why I'm focusing on the defense, because if the Hawks under this regime want to ever get close to sniffing another SB? It's going to be with another great defense.