Do you REALLY want him gone?

Elemas

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Besides the personal hatred or discomfort you may carry towards Russ, do you really want him gone? I’ve read everything from he’s self absorbed to his wife will be happier in a place like NY to salary to…

Tons of attacks on his character. I’m sitting over here in OH like…”wtf”. This is a dude that has focused on community and posts something about God more than any player I can remember. I’m not saying he’s an angel but, attacks on his character seem silly. When he comes out and says he wants to be a Seahawk for life but will be playing somewhere if not here, there’s an uproar. Is he lying? Is that not blatantly honest and true? If you’ve bailed a team out countless times, have watched players like Ungar get whisked away while seeing a guy like Eskridge get taken over Creed, I think you’d get a bit frustrated as well. Nothing against Graham or Dee…just saying we haven’t invested in the line like we should have. If a particular philosophy doesn’t work with the players you have but a different philosophy could, you have to adapt. What we were doing last year before Pete got scared was what the players, and most fans, wanted to see. Two high safeties? Adjust. Stick with your strengths. Don’t tout a run first mentality when you haven’t and refuse to build a top of the line…line.
This isn’t to advocate “Let Russ Cook” but more so of having a bit of faith in a sure shot HOF’er. Balance. Something like what we saw today. Granted, it was Detroit. But, the playcalling and balance between the plays was the best we’ve witnessed all year.

Russ wasn’t the same after the injury this year And, he has his deficiencies. But, do you truly think he won’t be a top 5, maybe top 3 QB next year?

This isn’t 10 years ago. Teams actually have to have good, if not great, QBs to make it these days. Finding a quality QB isn’t something that happens for a team every day. Ask the Bears.

Russ has a lot left in the tank. I’ve got down on him, posted that I would lean towards a rebuild, trade, etc…But when I sit back and look at it holistically, there’s no way in West Texas I’d trade him.
 

sutz

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That would be a hard NO on wanting him gone.
 

DarkVictory23

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Before I address some of your specific points, no, I do not 'really' want him gone. Do I think moving on from Russ has potential to be better medium/long term for the franchise than keeping him? Yes, but that's not the same thing.

As to why...

GemCity":2pmnikdj said:
This isn’t to advocate “Let Russ Cook” but more so of having a bit of faith in a sure shot HOF’er. Balance. Something like what we saw today. Granted, it was Detroit. But, the playcalling and balance between the plays was the best we’ve witnessed all year.
This is the biggest issue I have going forward altogether is that, what we saw today belies an issue that seems to be glossed over by a lot of the super Russ-apologist folks: The REASON Russ looked so good today was because Penny was so good today. And that's a problem.

Is Russ amazing in a run-first offense like what we busted out today? He absolutely is. To be clear, his accuracy was still off today, both in the regular 'Russ is naturally bad at short throws to the flat/screen passes' kind of way and the 'it's probably his injury that's messing up his touch on the deep balls' kind of way. But his decision making and improvisation was pretty much as good as it gets from him.

But the reason that is is because he was not the focal point of our offense. This was, in a lot of ways, a traditional 'Pete-ball' type of offense where giving the ball to an RB is what drives the offense and then Russ is uniquely gifted at capitalizing on that.

But the problem is that, completely separate from the fans who don't seem to realize that Pete-ball is great for Russ, is that Russ started to not realize that Pete-ball is great for Russ. Publically campaigning on the "Let Russ Cook" stuff showed where Russ thought our offense needs to be which is not what our offense needs to be.

And if Pete and Russ can't be consistently on the same page on that subject (and, additionally, if Russ's gigantic ass contract keeps us from getting the RB talent that we need for this to work), then one of them (or both) need to go for us to produce like this against teams that aren't the Detroit Lions of the world.


Russ wasn’t the same after the injury this year And, he has his deficiencies. But, do you truly think he won’t be a top 5, maybe top 3 QB next year?
I honestly have no idea what level Russ is going to produce at next year and I think anyone who thinks they know that is out to lunch.


This isn’t 10 years ago. Teams actually have to have good, if not great, QBs to make it these days. Finding a quality QB isn’t something that happens for a team every day. Ask the Bears.
This simply isn't true, though. It's one of those things people assume is true and trot out in arguments like these, but in the past 10 years, Joe Flacco won a Super Bowl and went on to do what, exactly after? The Broncos won a Super Bowl with the 2015 version of Peyton Manning who was worse than a number of backup QBs sitting on benches that year. Nick Foles won a Super Bowl as well and he IS a backup. Jared Goff went as well and he was so great that the Rams let him go without even talking to him about it. You think Seahawks would be interested in paying Jimmy Garoppolo what we pay Russ? He's been to a Super Bowl in the last 10 years too.

Teams still can go to and win Super Bowls with average to well below average QBs and they probably always will be able to.


Russ has a lot left in the tank. I’ve got down on him, posted that I would lean towards a rebuild, trade, etc…But when I sit back and look at it holistically, there’s no way in West Texas I’d trade him.
If there is no way you would trade Wilson, especially if we're looking at a ridiculous offer with, say, a decent QB and bunch of 1st round picks, I can't see how that's looking at things 'holistically'.

I enjoyed the win today and it gave us flashes of what this particular team can be on good days. But it was still the Lions and it still doesn't solve the problems we're going to face this offseason.
 

hgwellz12

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Only time I ever said it was for RUSSELL'S sake. I want to see ONE year with a top 10 o-line and a healthy, SOLID RB room. It can be done. Let Pete go upstairs if he just HAS TO stay. Give him the biggest corner office, an appropriate 'consultant' salary, or what have you, and bring in an overall more creative and 'heady' (clock management, TO's/challenge flag, etc) head coach and see what it do. At the very least hire/draft his successor for a year to let Russ coach up before trading him
 

pittpnthrs

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No I dont want Russ gone. Pete Carroll on the other hand,,,,,,,yes, I REALLY want him gone.
 

toffee

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ask who volunteered 4 acceptable destinations?
ask who signed off on trade to Chicago?

nothing to do with 12s want him gone or stay.
 

James in PA

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If Russ can get it through his head that he cannot be the focal point of our offense in order for the Hawks to get back to another SB and therefore agrees to a pay cut, I'm all for keeping him around. But I don't think that will happen. Greed, hero ball and unnecessary sacks will prevail.
 

imnKOgnito

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No, I don't.

I'm an unapologetic advocate for bringing the band back for one more run, minus Ken Norton at DC. I'll probably elaborate at some point but, for now, suffice it to say I've seen enough to believe next year could be what everyone hoped this year would be.
 

olyfan63

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James in PA":2qty9wb8 said:
If Russ can get it through his head that he cannot be the focal point of our offense in order for the Hawks to get back to another SB and therefore agrees to a pay cut, I'm all for keeping him around. But I don't think that will happen. Greed, hero ball and unnecessary sacks will prevail.

I'm on that page too, we went to SBs with a younger, faster, cheaper Russell along with an elite defense and a punishing run game. Russell isn't getting younger or faster, so cheaper is all that's left. He could get better at reading cover 2 defenses and getting the ball out faster, i.e., on time. Joe Burrow is already doing this stuff in his 2nd year in the league for Cincy, stuff that Russell hasn't shown us in 10 years. That's what Russell would need to do to be worth the money and get the Hawks back to the promised land. Can Russell upgrade his game that way? I'd rather bet on Pete making improvements. Now if BOTH Pete and Russell improved themselves, that would be an amazing result.

It was the LIONS and the Hawks brought a punishing run game that Detroit had to defend. Made Russell's job easier. Having the D get 3 picks to give the O short fields sure didn't hurt either. Also not sure how many D players Lions were missing due to covid, possibly a factor. Damned if Penny didn't *perform* like Lynch today, different styles, but tremendous impact on the game.

I did really like the Cover-0 blitz TD between Russell and DK, that was fantastic. Props to those 2 and Waldron for having that ready and executing.

Also loved the Lockett jet-sweep TD *pass*, fantastic to see. Kudos to Waldron for this play design. I didn't realize it was actually a *forward pass* until the announcers mentioned it was a TD pass to Lockett. Great design; a muffed exchange becomes simply an incomplete pass.

What we saw today was classic Pete-ball. Defense making plays, getting turnovers, offense running the ball and forcing defense to adjust, and Russell making good throws to open receivers against a defense stacked to stop the run, and Russell taking care of the ball. Turnover margin +3 unless I mis-counted.

Pete-ball at it's finest, *except* somehow the offense was green-lit to score the entire game. Maybe Waldron's influence, finally?
 

chris98251

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olyfan63":34vm91m5 said:
James in PA":34vm91m5 said:
If Russ can get it through his head that he cannot be the focal point of our offense in order for the Hawks to get back to another SB and therefore agrees to a pay cut, I'm all for keeping him around. But I don't think that will happen. Greed, hero ball and unnecessary sacks will prevail.

I'm on that page too, we went to SBs with a younger, faster, cheaper Russell along with an elite defense and a punishing run game. Russell isn't getting younger or faster, so cheaper is all that's left. He could get better at reading cover 2 defenses and getting the ball out faster, i.e., on time. Joe Burrow is already doing this stuff in his 2nd year in the league for Cincy, stuff that Russell hasn't shown us in 10 years. That's what Russell would need to do to be worth the money and get the Hawks back to the promised land. Can Russell upgrade his game that way? I'd rather bet on Pete making improvements. Now if BOTH Pete and Russell improved themselves, that would be an amazing result.

It was the LIONS and the Hawks brought a punishing run game that Detroit had to defend. Made Russell's job easier. Having the D get 3 picks to give the O short fields sure didn't hurt either. Also not sure how many D players Lions were missing due to covid, possibly a factor. Damned if Penny didn't *perform* like Lynch today, different styles, but tremendous impact on the game.

I did really like the Cover-0 blitz TD between Russell and DK, that was fantastic. Props to those 2 and Waldron for having that ready and executing.

Also loved the Lockett jet-sweep TD *pass*, fantastic to see. Kudos to Waldron for this play design. I didn't realize it was actually a *forward pass* until the announcers mentioned it was a TD pass to Lockett. Great design; a muffed exchange becomes simply an incomplete pass.

What we saw today was classic Pete-ball. Defense making plays, getting turnovers, offense running the ball and forcing defense to adjust, and Russell making good throws to open receivers against a defense stacked to stop the run, and Russell taking care of the ball. Turnover margin +3 unless I mis-counted.

Pete-ball at it's finest, *except* somehow the offense was green-lit to score the entire game. Maybe Waldron's influence, finally?

I tend to think this is reaction to the pressure and letting Wilson and the offense be what Waldron designed it to be, the defense went bend don't break while allowing the offense to score.
 

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Keep Russ. Fire John.. Hire a GM to oversee all football operations. Force Pete to hire a legit DC and let him rebuild the D. My 2 cents.
 

TwistedHusky

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If you don't have a QB, you don't have a chance.

Look at all the top winning teams, how many have even average QBs? (Titans/Colts? Others?)

If you want to be a consistently winning and playoff-bound team, you have no choice - you need an above-average QB.

So we need Russ because the chance of us getting lucky in finding another above-average QB again is close to zero.

But part of me does want to see what Russ would do with a competent HC, not just a cheerleader. Someone that can use tactics and matchups to help him - instead of moronically simple game plans that barely vary from opponent to opponent.

Russ never felt like a fit for Pete and I was shocked he signed another contract the first time. But for near 10 years, we were one of the best regular-season teams and could go toe-to-toe with anyone. Much of that was Russ.

We may well see if Wilson carried Pete now. (which is likely)

It felt like we should have traded Wilson a long time ago, back when we had a good defense, but that opportunity is over. We saw what Pete looks like without Wilson this year, and frankly, he looks like sh*t.

My hope is that the cap hit is so big, they are forced to keep him one more year but it feels unlikely.
 

keasley45

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chris98251":1qopkye6 said:
olyfan63":1qopkye6 said:
James in PA":1qopkye6 said:
If Russ can get it through his head that he cannot be the focal point of our offense in order for the Hawks to get back to another SB and therefore agrees to a pay cut, I'm all for keeping him around. But I don't think that will happen. Greed, hero ball and unnecessary sacks will prevail.

I'm on that page too, we went to SBs with a younger, faster, cheaper Russell along with an elite defense and a punishing run game. Russell isn't getting younger or faster, so cheaper is all that's left. He could get better at reading cover 2 defenses and getting the ball out faster, i.e., on time. Joe Burrow is already doing this stuff in his 2nd year in the league for Cincy, stuff that Russell hasn't shown us in 10 years. That's what Russell would need to do to be worth the money and get the Hawks back to the promised land. Can Russell upgrade his game that way? I'd rather bet on Pete making improvements. Now if BOTH Pete and Russell improved themselves, that would be an amazing result.

It was the LIONS and the Hawks brought a punishing run game that Detroit had to defend. Made Russell's job easier. Having the D get 3 picks to give the O short fields sure didn't hurt either. Also not sure how many D players Lions were missing due to covid, possibly a factor. Damned if Penny didn't *perform* like Lynch today, different styles, but tremendous impact on the game.

I did really like the Cover-0 blitz TD between Russell and DK, that was fantastic. Props to those 2 and Waldron for having that ready and executing.

Also loved the Lockett jet-sweep TD *pass*, fantastic to see. Kudos to Waldron for this play design. I didn't realize it was actually a *forward pass* until the announcers mentioned it was a TD pass to Lockett. Great design; a muffed exchange becomes simply an incomplete pass.

What we saw today was classic Pete-ball. Defense making plays, getting turnovers, offense running the ball and forcing defense to adjust, and Russell making good throws to open receivers against a defense stacked to stop the run, and Russell taking care of the ball. Turnover margin +3 unless I mis-counted.

Pete-ball at it's finest, *except* somehow the offense was green-lit to score the entire game. Maybe Waldron's influence, finally?

I tend to think this is reaction to the pressure and letting Wilson and the offense be what Waldron designed it to be, the defense went bend don't break while allowing the offense to score.

Are you saying performances like today have been disallowed previously?

If so, that's a bit ludicrous. Why we can't do this week in and week out isn't a mystery.

We were playing the 2nd worst team in the league who was starting their backup qb, which effectively makes them the worst.

Our offense was run based and we committed to it where in games earlier this season, we abandoned the run when it was working so that we could pass ourselves into a futile 2 to 1 pass to run ratio and literally throw games away. That's neither peteball nor Waldronball.

The lions team is not great on defense.

We saw what happened last time we went gaga over a blowout easy win against another weak opponent in Houston, just to show our warts again against a team that could box up our run game just enough and take away what Russ likes to do, leaving him with what he's less capable at.

Russ has raged against being held within the script of a complimentary, run based offense. If he was happy playing team qb, and not chef in the let russ cook, kitchen, that would be one thing. But then you're still faced with the spectre of having a winning enough season, maybe first place in the division, andthem, with teams knowing now hownto stop Russ in ways they didnt during our superbowl years, boxing us up and tossing us out in the first or second round of the playoffs again. There has yet to be a string of games or even one solid game where Russ has shown he can just run a good defense out of their typical kill strategy against us with his arm and ability to consistently distribute the ball and move the chains.

If there were performances like this against quality defenses, whistle to whistle, then the idea of moving on would be more difficult to embrace.
 

Sgt. Largent

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Not sure how anyone who comes here on a regular basis, or interacts on social media can come to the conclusion that fans "hate" or feel "discomfort" towards Russell.

Overrated
Over valued
Over paid
Doesn't work well with Pete
Maybe past his prime
Not elite enough anymore to compensate for the lack of talent around him

These are the words you should use if you're describing Hawk fans who may think it's time for Russ to move on.

Personally I'm squarely in the last phrase I typed Hawk fan demographic. There is so little young talent on this roster right now, with no picks and the wrong person to make those picks in Pete for me to be confident that keeping Russell will result in anything more than at BEST a couple 9-8 seasons before he finally leaves.

If you feel different, please enlighten me on how this roster is going to be overhauled with no picks and the same two dudes who have done a terrible job of acquiring young talent still in charge.
 

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Anyone thinking Russ is washed or should be gone is dumb. Russ is fine and will be in the mvp discussion next year like he has been almost every year but this one in his career. It was a weird year with a new OC, zero running game and a a couple of injuries.

The roster is bad although there are enough pieces on offense that if you improve the line a little, keep running backs healthy and Eskridge takes a jump next year this offense could very well be one of the best in the league. That is what you have to bank on and if Russ returns to form I think its feasible.
 
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Elemas

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DarkVictory23":1779sj37 said:
Before I address some of your specific points, no, I do not 'really' want him gone. Do I think moving on from Russ has potential to be better medium/long term for the franchise than keeping him? Yes, but that's not the same thing.

As to why...

GemCity":1779sj37 said:
This isn’t to advocate “Let Russ Cook” but more so of having a bit of faith in a sure shot HOF’er. Balance. Something like what we saw today. Granted, it was Detroit. But, the playcalling and balance between the plays was the best we’ve witnessed all year.
This is the biggest issue I have going forward altogether is that, what we saw today belies an issue that seems to be glossed over by a lot of the super Russ-apologist folks: The REASON Russ looked so good today was because Penny was so good today. And that's a problem.

Is Russ amazing in a run-first offense like what we busted out today? He absolutely is. To be clear, his accuracy was still off today, both in the regular 'Russ is naturally bad at short throws to the flat/screen passes' kind of way and the 'it's probably his injury that's messing up his touch on the deep balls' kind of way. But his decision making and improvisation was pretty much as good as it gets from him.

But the reason that is is because he was not the focal point of our offense. This was, in a lot of ways, a traditional 'Pete-ball' type of offense where giving the ball to an RB is what drives the offense and then Russ is uniquely gifted at capitalizing on that.

But the problem is that, completely separate from the fans who don't seem to realize that Pete-ball is great for Russ, is that Russ started to not realize that Pete-ball is great for Russ. Publically campaigning on the "Let Russ Cook" stuff showed where Russ thought our offense needs to be which is not what our offense needs to be.

And if Pete and Russ can't be consistently on the same page on that subject (and, additionally, if Russ's gigantic ass contract keeps us from getting the RB talent that we need for this to work), then one of them (or both) need to go for us to produce like this against teams that aren't the Detroit Lions of the world.


Russ wasn’t the same after the injury this year And, he has his deficiencies. But, do you truly think he won’t be a top 5, maybe top 3 QB next year?
I honestly have no idea what level Russ is going to produce at next year and I think anyone who thinks they know that is out to lunch.


This isn’t 10 years ago. Teams actually have to have good, if not great, QBs to make it these days. Finding a quality QB isn’t something that happens for a team every day. Ask the Bears.
This simply isn't true, though. It's one of those things people assume is true and trot out in arguments like these, but in the past 10 years, Joe Flacco won a Super Bowl and went on to do what, exactly after? The Broncos won a Super Bowl with the 2015 version of Peyton Manning who was worse than a number of backup QBs sitting on benches that year. Nick Foles won a Super Bowl as well and he IS a backup. Jared Goff went as well and he was so great that the Rams let him go without even talking to him about it. You think Seahawks would be interested in paying Jimmy Garoppolo what we pay Russ? He's been to a Super Bowl in the last 10 years too.

Teams still can go to and win Super Bowls with average to well below average QBs and they probably always will be able to.


Russ has a lot left in the tank. I’ve got down on him, posted that I would lean towards a rebuild, trade, etc…But when I sit back and look at it holistically, there’s no way in West Texas I’d trade him.
If there is no way you would trade Wilson, especially if we're looking at a ridiculous offer with, say, a decent QB and bunch of 1st round picks, I can't see how that's looking at things 'holistically'.

I enjoyed the win today and it gave us flashes of what this particular team can be on good days. But it was still the Lions and it still doesn't solve the problems we're going to face this offseason.


Sorry for the quote…I know this gets hard to read. Besides Flacco and Foles (who happened to play better than he ever had..or will), I absolutely believe you need a top tier QB to win it all. Mediocrity won’t cut it in todays game.

Also, I’m not confident that we could flip those picks to an elite, maybe All-Pro, unlikely HOF player or two. To me, John and Pete’s “magic” has always been in the late rounds sans ET.
I guess you could advocate dumping those picks for multiple late rounders but that would have to be a helluva draft class. I also think that if you go that route, you are absolutely looking at a complete and total rebuild. Trade Tyler, Wagner, Diggs, let the 1-2 year projects walk and plan on trading DK. The only way DK stays in that scenario is if you pay him top dollar. If you rebuild, you try to keep young talent. But, I don’t think for a minute DK would sit around for that..

On paper, this is a good team. IMO, this season is more a reflection on the inability to adapt and support the seemingly desired protocol. Which to be honest, I prefer/like. Enough code-talk…draft or trade for the best damn offensive linemen you can.

I’ve always believed that defense wins games. But, you’ve got to admit that the tides have changed a bit. The rules (penalties) heavily favor the offense.

Don’t get me wrong, you need a good/great defense as well. I guess I’m just anxious to see what Russ and a decent to good RB could do behind a great line. Maybe that’s Penny (if not injured). I could see multiple 1200+ yard receivers (DK and Tyler) and Penny running for the same (if not more).

Maybe I have too much faith in our players…,
 

Sgt. Largent

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TCHawks":p9vtsrse said:
Anyone thinking Russ is washed or should be gone is dumb. Russ is fine and will be in the mvp discussion next year like he has been almost every year but this one in his career. It was a weird year with a new OC, zero running game and a a couple of injuries.

The roster is bad although there are enough pieces on offense that if you improve the line a little, keep running backs healthy and Eskridge takes a jump next year this offense could very well be one of the best in the league. That is what you have to bank on and if Russ returns to form I think its feasible.

How are you accomplishing revamping the entire D-line, adding 1-2 positions on the O-line, two possible LB spots and three possible DB spots?

AND "keeping the RB's healthy?" What does that even mean. Either you have a dependable RB on a rookie deal or contract, or you don't. We don't.

btw, are you also ready to hand DK 20M a year? Cause that's what he's going to want. Cooper with Dallas just got 100M, that's where DK's agent is going to start at.

So for all the "hey we have lots of cap space to fill in all these gaps" crowd. Remember that. You want Brown back? You want Diggs back? You going to try to bring Bobby back? Well there goes most of your cap space.

Sorry man, this roster doesn't have ANYWHERE near enough young cheap playmakers to build on with the lack of picks and cap space needed to be anything more than the 2nd or 3rd best team in our own division.

Russell knows this. Now so do you.
 
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