Carlos Dunlap said he spoke with Russell Wilson before re-si

[Sgt. Largent]

Who's content?

I don't know anyone who's content with losing in the 1st or 2nd round of the playoffs every year. But unless you have an attractive viable alternative to Pete other than "hey let's just try no more Pete," then I'm out.

For all of Pete's faults, he IS the Hawks right now. So it's not just X's and O's, gameplanning and on field things, if he's gone so goes the culture, the locker room and the attractiveness of playing in Seattle, of which MANY free agents talk about as to why they sign here. Pete.

So sure, I'm all for moving on from Pete if you have a better alternative. But I've witnessed 40 years of JAG coaches GM's and coordinators, so be careful what you wish for. Because the quickest way to slip back into eternal 7-9 mediocrity is to get rid of the most successful coach in franchise history without a VERY specific gameplan of how and who you're replacing him with.

Who's content? Everybody thats satisfied with the current team and the current trend, coach included. Apparently you seem content with it.

Pete and his culture is great, but the team needs an adaptive, current thinking coach and not a best friend. That great culture isnt equating to getting any closer to a Super Bowl. The team is stuck.

The last point is where people get lost. Wilson is the reason the team is as successful as it is, not Pete. You take away Russ and Seattle is a 7-9 team. Without Wilson Carroll has a sub .500 record in the NFL. What exactly are you looking for when you say an attractive, viable option to Carroll? Somebody you approve of? Wilson guarantees 9 to 10 wins a season. I would take my chances on any younger, creative coach at this point. Face it, Pete is never going to get the team close to the Super Bowl again, thinking otherwise is just being delusional, so why not try somebody new? Yes it could fail, but at least they tried while they still have one of the best QB's in the league. As is, we all know how the season is going to end before it even starts.

It's both, to not give Pete any credit for the longest run of success in franchise history is being intellectually dishonest to this conversation.

We didn't win a SB and get within 40 seconds of winning another one because of Russell. We did those things because Pete and John built one of the greatest defenses of all time, and made savvy shrewd moves like trading for Marshawn.

And to move on from that is not just a snap of a finger, it requires an WHOLESALE shift from ownership down.

Which is something you and other's never mention when we have these discussions, Jody Allen. Do you really think Jody Allen has the football or business acumen to be the owner to steward a new coaching staff?

I sure don't. That's the very reason she gave Pete and John new contracts, she wanted nothing to do with a change.

So if you want Pete gone, then you better start talking about Allen and trusting her and the Hawk's brass to make the right choice. I don't know her, but I know she had an NFL franchise dropped in her lap with ZERO appetite for firing Pete and making a coaching change.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Who's content?

I don't know anyone who's content with losing in the 1st or 2nd round of the playoffs every year. But unless you have an attractive viable alternative to Pete other than "hey let's just try no more Pete," then I'm out.

For all of Pete's faults, he IS the Hawks right now. So it's not just X's and O's, gameplanning and on field things, if he's gone so goes the culture, the locker room and the attractiveness of playing in Seattle, of which MANY free agents talk about as to why they sign here. Pete.

So sure, I'm all for moving on from Pete if you have a better alternative. But I've witnessed 40 years of JAG coaches GM's and coordinators, so be careful what you wish for. Because the quickest way to slip back into eternal 7-9 mediocrity is to get rid of the most successful coach in franchise history without a VERY specific gameplan of how and who you're replacing him with.

Who's content? Everybody thats satisfied with the current team and the current trend, coach included. Apparently you seem content with it.

Pete and his culture is great, but the team needs an adaptive, current thinking coach and not a best friend. That great culture isnt equating to getting any closer to a Super Bowl. The team is stuck.

The last point is where people get lost. Wilson is the reason the team is as successful as it is, not Pete. You take away Russ and Seattle is a 7-9 team. Without Wilson Carroll has a sub .500 record in the NFL. What exactly are you looking for when you say an attractive, viable option to Carroll? Somebody you approve of? Wilson guarantees 9 to 10 wins a season. I would take my chances on any younger, creative coach at this point. Face it, Pete is never going to get the team close to the Super Bowl again, thinking otherwise is just being delusional, so why not try somebody new? Yes it could fail, but at least they tried while they still have one of the best QB's in the league. As is, we all know how the season is going to end before it even starts.

It's both, to not give Pete any credit for the longest run of success in franchise history is being intellectually dishonest to this conversation.

We didn't win a SB and get within 40 seconds of winning another one because of Russell. We did those things because Pete and John built one of the greatest defenses of all time, and made savvy shrewd moves like trading for Marshawn.

And to move on from that is not just a snap of a finger, it requires an WHOLESALE shift from ownership down.

Which is something you and other's never mention when we have these discussions, Jody Allen. Do you really think Jody Allen has the football or business acumen to be the owner to steward a new coaching staff?

I sure don't. That's the very reason she gave Pete and John new contracts, she wanted nothing to do with a change.

So if you want Pete gone, then you better start talking about Allen and trusting her and the Hawk's brass to make the right choice. I don't know her, but I know she had an NFL franchise dropped in her lap with ZERO appetite for firing Pete and making a coaching change.

I do give Pete and John credit for forming a great team. As much credit as I give Pete for creating that legendary defense, I also give him credit for dismantling it far to quickly. Even that great defense rebelled against Pete due to boneheaded coaching and a culture they no longer bought into.

No the Hawks didnt win the Super Bowl because of Wilson, but he is the reason the Hawks have stayed afloat for years now. Make no mistake about that.

I've mentioned Jody Allen numerous times. She took over the team as a favor to her brother and the city of Seattle. She also has zero interest in the team except for the profit they make. She gave Carroll a 5 year extension so he could babysit the franchise so she wouldnt have to. Thats a huge problem. Pete has absolutely nobody he answers to and Jody isnt smart enough to recognize if changes need to be made. In the big scheme of things, she's a terrible owner. As soon as the team quits turning a profit, she'll sell.

 

[KiwiHawk]

I've mentioned Jody Allen numerous times. She took over the team as a favor to her brother and the city of Seattle. She also has zero interest in the team except for the profit they make. She gave Carroll a 5 year extension so he could babysit the franchise so she wouldnt have to. Thats a huge problem. Pete has absolutely nobody he answers to and Jody isnt smart enough to recognize if changes need to be made. In the big scheme of things, she's a terrible owner. As soon as the team quits turning a profit, she'll sell.

Changes *were* made.

Cable was fired when is OL wasn't working and was replaced by Solari. Two years in we're writing him off? It's not easy to re-vamp an OL while breaking the bank for a QB. You can't just hire all the free agents out there.

We let Russ cook but Schottenheimer wasn't up to the task. He was fired and replaced with a more innovative passing game coordinator.

In LA, Waldron oversaw Jared Goff who got rid of the ball a half second quicker than Wilson, threw the ball an average 1.5 yards shorter (average air yards per pass), but had only 0.3 fewer yards per pass attempt than Wilson holding the ball forever and throwing hail Marys.

This move is *specifically* designed to protect Russ and to use him more effectively. Defensive linemen run the 40 in around 4.5 to 5 seconds. That means every half second they cover around 4 yards. If Wilson can release a half second sooner, on average, he's going to take fewer hits.

Waldron schemes receivers open. We know the damage Metcalf and Lockett can do when they get the ball in space. We brought in Everett who can play running back, wide receiver, and tight end, because he complicates things for defenses which is part of getting Lockett and Metcalf open.

We even brought in an excellent guard, retained our center, and are shopping for additional OL right now.

You haven't seen the result of these changes on the field, and you're already writing it all off. That's ridiculous. You want change, and change got made. Now see how it does, and THEN judge it.

 

[pittpnthrs]

I've mentioned Jody Allen numerous times. She took over the team as a favor to her brother and the city of Seattle. She also has zero interest in the team except for the profit they make. She gave Carroll a 5 year extension so he could babysit the franchise so she wouldnt have to. Thats a huge problem. Pete has absolutely nobody he answers to and Jody isnt smart enough to recognize if changes need to be made. In the big scheme of things, she's a terrible owner. As soon as the team quits turning a profit, she'll sell.

Changes *were* made.

Cable was fired when is OL wasn't working and was replaced by Solari. Two years in we're writing him off? It's not easy to re-vamp an OL while breaking the bank for a QB. You can't just hire all the free agents out there.

We let Russ cook but Schottenheimer wasn't up to the task. He was fired and replaced with a more innovative passing game coordinator.

In LA, Waldron oversaw Jared Goff who got rid of the ball a half second quicker than Wilson, threw the ball an average 1.5 yards shorter (average air yards per pass), but had only 0.3 fewer yards per pass attempt than Wilson holding the ball forever and throwing hail Marys.

This move is *specifically* designed to protect Russ and to use him more effectively. Defensive linemen run the 40 in around 4.5 to 5 seconds. That means every half second they cover around 4 yards. If Wilson can release a half second sooner, on average, he's going to take fewer hits.

Waldron schemes receivers open. We know the damage Metcalf and Lockett can do when they get the ball in space. We brought in Everett who can play running back, wide receiver, and tight end, because he complicates things for defenses which is part of getting Lockett and Metcalf open.

We even brought in an excellent guard, retained our center, and are shopping for additional OL right now.

You haven't seen the result of these changes on the field, and you're already writing it all off. That's ridiculous. You want change, and change got made. Now see how it does, and THEN judge it.

Cable and Bevell were fired 3 years to late. Solari was hired and has been trying to make a steak out of hamburger. Hard to have a good line when the FO whiffs so often on personel.

Ah yes, Waldron. The next great hope. The new OC that has never been an OC before. The 4th OC in Petes 10 years. See a pattern there? What Waldron did in LA wont equate to what he does here. Why? Pete Carroll. At some point during the season, Pete will do what he always does and implement Pete Ball after Russ throws a couple ints in a game, thus neutering what the OC was trying to do. Its inevitable. He did it for years with Bevell, did it with Schotty, and he'll do it with Waldron. He cant help himself. When all these changes are being made and the results always stay the same, at some point you have to step back and take a look at the guy making the decisions.

Everett will make minimalist contributions (no idea why people are so high on a mediocre TE), Jackson was a nice pickup, they retained the same crappy center, and are now looking for the usual depth JAGS they always end up signing. Team will probably back into the playoffs, take the usual early exit, fans will rejoice because they at least made the playoffs and the team stunk 30 years ago, rinse and re-pete. Same old, same old.

 

[Jville]

Since this thread has been hijacked and moved off topic past any hope of redemption, I'll volunteer that it feels like we have all been entrapped in the low budget movie "IDIOCRACY" ....................
[youtube]sP2tUW0HDHA[/youtube]

 

[Maelstrom787]

Ah yes, Waldron. The next great hope. The new OC that has never been an OC before. The 4th OC in Petes 10 years. See a pattern there?

Actually, that's a pretty long average OC tenure. Bates throws things off, being a one-season wonder.

There are literally 2 off. coordinators in the NFL that were hired before 2018.

2. That's it. 2. One, and then 2. 1 multiplied by 2. Half of 4.

Either Pete holds on too long, or he cuts them too soon. Pick one or the other because I've seen you say both, and your BS is exhausting.

 

[Maelstrom787]

We have Pete. We are stuck with him.

But the defense right now is stuck with the Appeal to Authority because he has nothing else to offer.

Pete has done nothing but fall short of expectations since his SB loss.

Since that moment, he has never once exceeded expectations, but for winning the division last year...which was actually falling short of expectations given our performance in the playoffs. And even winning the division was more the other teams stumbling than us taking any steps forward.

The argument that we really have made the playoffs regularly as a consequence of Wilson's play, not Pete's coaching is hard to refute. Once Wilson leaves and Pete regularly misses the playoffs it will become canon.

But either way, we have Pete - so there is little we can do but deal with it and hope that the team can somehow play well enough to overcome Pete's poor gameday coaching and terrible decisioning with coordinators.

It isn't changing.

The team was literally projected as a rebuilding team expected to lose in 2018.

 

[John63]

We have Pete. We are stuck with him.

But the defense right now is stuck with the Appeal to Authority because he has nothing else to offer.

Pete has done nothing but fall short of expectations since his SB loss.

Since that moment, he has never once exceeded expectations, but for winning the division last year...which was actually falling short of expectations given our performance in the playoffs. And even winning the division was more the other teams stumbling than us taking any steps forward.

The argument that we really have made the playoffs regularly as a consequence of Wilson's play, not Pete's coaching is hard to refute. Once Wilson leaves and Pete regularly misses the playoffs it will become canon.

But either way, we have Pete - so there is little we can do but deal with it and hope that the team can somehow play well enough to overcome Pete's poor gameday coaching and terrible decisioning with coordinators.

It isn't changing.

The team was literally projected as a rebuilding team expected to lose in 2018.

maybe but doe s that mean it was because of PC or despite PC.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Ah yes, Waldron. The next great hope. The new OC that has never been an OC before. The 4th OC in Petes 10 years. See a pattern there?

Actually, that's a pretty long average OC tenure. Bates throws things off, being a one-season wonder.

There are literally 2 off. coordinators in the NFL that were hired before 2018.

2. That's it. 2. One, and then 2. 1 multiplied by 2. Half of 4.

Either Pete holds on too long, or he cuts them too soon. Pick one or the other because I've seen you say both, and your BS is exhausting.

Come on. Most OC's move on due to other job opportunities, not because they were fired. Every OC under Pete,,,,,fired.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Ah yes, Waldron. The next great hope. The new OC that has never been an OC before. The 4th OC in Petes 10 years. See a pattern there?

Actually, that's a pretty long average OC tenure. Bates throws things off, being a one-season wonder.

There are literally 2 off. coordinators in the NFL that were hired before 2018.

2. That's it. 2. One, and then 2. 1 multiplied by 2. Half of 4.

Either Pete holds on too long, or he cuts them too soon. Pick one or the other because I've seen you say both, and your BS is exhausting.

Come on. Most OC's move on due to other job opportunities, not because they were fired. Every OC under Pete,,,,,fired.

That has literally no effect on the Seahawks. None. End result is losing a coach. Schotty was getting head coach mentions in the media before his offense fell apart.

Also, provide the data showing that more coordinators move up than down, please.

 

[Maelstrom787]

We have Pete. We are stuck with him.

But the defense right now is stuck with the Appeal to Authority because he has nothing else to offer.

Pete has done nothing but fall short of expectations since his SB loss.

Since that moment, he has never once exceeded expectations, but for winning the division last year...which was actually falling short of expectations given our performance in the playoffs. And even winning the division was more the other teams stumbling than us taking any steps forward.

The argument that we really have made the playoffs regularly as a consequence of Wilson's play, not Pete's coaching is hard to refute. Once Wilson leaves and Pete regularly misses the playoffs it will become canon.

But either way, we have Pete - so there is little we can do but deal with it and hope that the team can somehow play well enough to overcome Pete's poor gameday coaching and terrible decisioning with coordinators.

It isn't changing.

The team was literally projected as a rebuilding team expected to lose in 2018.

maybe but doe s that mean it was because of PC or despite PC.

He's the head coach and head executive of the organization. This argument is tired and, frankly, completely disconnected from reality. Stunningly ignorant.

 

[Maulbert]

We have Pete. We are stuck with him.

But the defense right now is stuck with the Appeal to Authority because he has nothing else to offer.

Pete has done nothing but fall short of expectations since his SB loss.

Since that moment, he has never once exceeded expectations, but for winning the division last year...which was actually falling short of expectations given our performance in the playoffs. And even winning the division was more the other teams stumbling than us taking any steps forward.

The argument that we really have made the playoffs regularly as a consequence of Wilson's play, not Pete's coaching is hard to refute. Once Wilson leaves and Pete regularly misses the playoffs it will become canon.

But either way, we have Pete - so there is little we can do but deal with it and hope that the team can somehow play well enough to overcome Pete's poor gameday coaching and terrible decisioning with coordinators.

It isn't changing.

The team was literally projected as a rebuilding team expected to lose in 2018.

maybe but doe s that mean it was because of PC or despite PC.

He's the head coach and head executive of the organization. This argument is tired and, frankly, completely disconnected from reality. Stunningly ignorant.

All the people trying to strip credit and pass blame make me think of the idiots who believed Marshawn Lynch carried the entire team to a Super Bowl title with both arms tied behind his back.

 

[TwistedHusky]

I stand corrected.

Carroll has ONCE beaten expectations, as pointed out, in 2018. Of course that is almost the year of Carroll's greatest playoff failure - getting outcoached by Jason Garrett. So calling 2018 a success shows the kind of trash upside Carroll leaves us with now. His greatest accomplishment in the almost 10 years since the SB loss, was capped with getting outcoached by Jason Garrett.

That is still pretty pathetic.

What Carroll does is pile up good to very good regular-season records before falling flat in the playoffs now. (No I don't count wildcard games)

It comes down to being ok with just being good or OK vs wanting to take the risk to be better knowing you have one of the key pieces to doing better. So do you bet on Carroll or Wilson?

Carroll:
There is likely no universe where Carroll does better in the playoffs ever again. Almost certainly no future where he makes another SB, likely no chance he even wins a divisional playoff game, and as things continue his chances of even making the playoffs grow smaller.

Wilson:
Wilson almost certainly could win playoff games given better gameday coaching and a bit more roster support.


So Wilson might be 'looking to stay' but I would be shocked if this coming season is not his last year here. He is far too goal-oriented to tolerate Carroll holding him back from success in the playoffs much more. Especially if the question is 'Do you bet on Carroll or Wilson?' because Wilson will ALWAYS bet on himself. (One of the reasons he is so successful in the first place.)

 

[chris98251]

3 OC's, one Super Bowl that was won by a defense that needed the offense not to lose it and kill time.

All Three OC's left, the offense has never carried this team really, without outstanding defensive play we crumble without a pounding running game to eat time of possession and rely on hero ball. They took Hero ball away last season with a two deep look. We don't have a Incredible Hulk at RB, we have a good RB but not Lynch.

What is the common denominator, Gibbs a passing OC, Bevell a Passing OC, Schotty know for a good Run guy but a good passing OC as well.

I would say Pete does put his finger prints over how the offense functions, he wants the OC's to work in that frame work. When they want to deviate due to a DC figuring stuff out he is reluctant, if something fails or needs tweaking he reverts back to his comfort zone rather then countering. Why we looked so flat that past part of the season.

 

[Maelstrom787]

I would say Pete does put his finger prints over how the offense functions, he wants the OC's to work in that frame work. When they want to deviate due to a DC figuring stuff out he is reluctant, if something fails or needs tweaking he reverts back to his comfort zone rather then countering. Why we looked so flat that past part of the season.

They didn't revert back to what most of this board thinks is his comfort zone. If they would have, it likely would've been better because Carson is good enough to help sustain drives.

We can talk about a solid framework all we want for the offense, the fact is that the 2020 offense was a complete departure from what it had been previously in terms of overall philosophy.

 

[pittpnthrs]

3 OC's, one Super Bowl that was won by a defense that needed the offense not to lose it and kill time.

All Three OC's left, the offense has never carried this team really, without outstanding defensive play we crumble without a pounding running game to eat time of possession and rely on hero ball. They took Hero ball away last season with a two deep look. We don't have a Incredible Hulk at RB, we have a good RB but not Lynch.

What is the common denominator, Gibbs a passing OC, Bevell a Passing OC, Schotty know for a good Run guy but a good passing OC as well.

I would say Pete does put his finger prints over how the offense functions, he wants the OC's to work in that frame work. When they want to deviate due to a DC figuring stuff out he is reluctant, if something fails or needs tweaking he reverts back to his comfort zone rather then countering. Why we looked so flat that past part of the season.

Exactly. Thats why it doesnt matter who the OC is. Anybody thinking Waldron is going to make substantial changes to the offense are sadly mistaken.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Ah yes, Waldron. The next great hope. The new OC that has never been an OC before. The 4th OC in Petes 10 years. See a pattern there?

Actually, that's a pretty long average OC tenure. Bates throws things off, being a one-season wonder.

There are literally 2 off. coordinators in the NFL that were hired before 2018.

2. That's it. 2. One, and then 2. 1 multiplied by 2. Half of 4.

Either Pete holds on too long, or he cuts them too soon. Pick one or the other because I've seen you say both, and your BS is exhausting.

Come on. Most OC's move on due to other job opportunities, not because they were fired. Every OC under Pete,,,,,fired.

That has literally no effect on the Seahawks. None. End result is losing a coach. Schotty was getting head coach mentions in the media before his offense fell apart.

Also, provide the data showing that more coordinators move up than down, please.

Oh what team is Schotty the head coach of now? What exactly did head coaching mentions have to do with him being fired?

OC's dont necessarily grab the elusive head coaching gigs, but they move to other teams for better contracts and so forth. Tell me how many teams have fired 3 of them in a 10 year period? I'm betting its a very small list.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Your problem is our DC is now the weak link.

So the defense cannot win games for us anymore, it HAS to be the offense.

That Carroll refuses to acknowledge this is the very root of our problem.

We cannot have an offense that works like the other offenses we fielded and needed when we were winning.

We need an offense that scores near every drive because our defense is going to give up points near every drive.

Our defense is going to give up over 28 points a game so we have to score over 28.

Dunlap helps but the DC is still a huge gaping weakness that will be near impossible to overcome. Normally Carroll might be able to shore it up but with him getting closer and closer to senility that isn't going to happen.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Actually, that's a pretty long average OC tenure. Bates throws things off, being a one-season wonder.

There are literally 2 off. coordinators in the NFL that were hired before 2018.

2. That's it. 2. One, and then 2. 1 multiplied by 2. Half of 4.

Either Pete holds on too long, or he cuts them too soon. Pick one or the other because I've seen you say both, and your BS is exhausting.

Come on. Most OC's move on due to other job opportunities, not because they were fired. Every OC under Pete,,,,,fired.

That has literally no effect on the Seahawks. None. End result is losing a coach. Schotty was getting head coach mentions in the media before his offense fell apart.

Also, provide the data showing that more coordinators move up than down, please.

Oh what team is Schotty the head coach of now? What exactly did head coaching mentions have to do with him being fired?

OC's dont necessarily grab the elusive head coaching gigs, but they move to other teams for better contracts and so forth. Tell me how many teams have fired 3 of them in a 10 year period? I'm betting its a very small list.

No data. Got it.

Judging by the fact that the average offensive coordinator has a tenure of about 1.1 years in their role, you're almost certainly off-track here. Should probably hold off on making claims you can't back up.

 

[Maelstrom787]

3 OC's, one Super Bowl that was won by a defense that needed the offense not to lose it and kill time.

All Three OC's left, the offense has never carried this team really, without outstanding defensive play we crumble without a pounding running game to eat time of possession and rely on hero ball. They took Hero ball away last season with a two deep look. We don't have a Incredible Hulk at RB, we have a good RB but not Lynch.

What is the common denominator, Gibbs a passing OC, Bevell a Passing OC, Schotty know for a good Run guy but a good passing OC as well.

I would say Pete does put his finger prints over how the offense functions, he wants the OC's to work in that frame work. When they want to deviate due to a DC figuring stuff out he is reluctant, if something fails or needs tweaking he reverts back to his comfort zone rather then countering. Why we looked so flat that past part of the season.

Exactly. Thats why it doesnt matter who the OC is. Anybody thinking Waldron is going to make substantial changes to the offense are sadly mistaken.

This is asinine, considering the extreme change we saw in 2020 towards a heavy pass split.