Ball spot errors, need for change

[jammerhawk]

I think the Hawks got jobbed by the referees in this last game.

Somehow it seems to me that the referees screwed the Hawks like usual with those early atrocious spots. It seemed unfair that the team lost their challenges having to deal with the obvious mistaken spots made by that terrible crew on Thursday. The non-first down spot was egregious, the actual spot initially made was simply awful, but something the team has seem before. It was more than 2 yards wrong.

Had the line judge actually watched Wagner's stop of Gurley they wouldn't have called it a first down that was naturally wrong, needing overturning. I couldn't believe after the first successful challenge how wrong the spot was. The fact the team was forced to use those two challenges was galling when both were obviously successful. Losing any right to challenge again for the whole game on the play by Baldwin to me was annoying as neither earlier challenge was improper or not even necessary. This part of the rulers allows an incompetent refereeing crew to manipulate the game results.

It's time to revisit the rule on challenges so you don't lose the right to challenge if your prior challenges are successful. If the league wants to actually get the calls right this chane would not result in delay of the game any more than present.

Besides that I thought as well the 3rd challenge result was closer but also wrong and Baldwin made that first down but the side judge (the same idiot from the first spot) got it wrong again. I watch the spots game to game and it is something the league needs to a better job at improving. I think Seattle gets screwed over this way quite often.

 

[Largent80]

It could all be done with sensors. Sensors in the ball and in the sideline markers. Eliminate the arbitrary human element.

Another part that galls me about spotting, is the way they just randomly set the ball down without making 100% sure it is where it's supposed to go, but yet they bring the chains over and if it is 1/2" off it means a 1st or 4th down. This has always really bugged me.

 

[ludakrishna]

It could all be done with sensors. Sensors in the ball and in the sideline markers. Eliminate the arbitrary human element.

Another part that galls me about spotting, is the way they just randomly set the ball down without making 100% sure it is where it's supposed to go, but yet they bring the chains over and if it is 1/2" off it means a 1st or 4th down. This has always really bugged me.[/quote

How would the sensors work? Will the sensor know the players knee hit the ground and then identify that's where the ball needs to be spotted?

 

[Largent80]

That would be impossible for the sensor. It is for the ball. There are dozens of cameras, and in fact they need more camera's to focus on that issue.

One of the biggest problems with replay is bodies being in the way of cameras.

 

[UK_Seahawk]

I am of the opinion you should have 2 challenges and you keep them if you are correct.

What kind of fair system punishes you for being correct? Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Largent80]

Ball placement challenges shouldbe unlimited. They obviously ant get them right. And to say that that would take too much to.e is also ridiculous since the NFL broadcast's a gazillion commercials every five minutes.

 

[Beren]

Sensors is a good idea.

It won't tell you when the man is down, but if the view of the ball is obfuscated, you can use the sensor to determine where the ball should be spotted by using the time when you see the knee (or other relevant body part) hit the ground - assuming that is visible.

It's not a fullproof system, and occasionally, everything will be obscured from sight, but it's definitely progress.

If they can implement this in soccer in the UK for goal line technology, with the money in the NFL, this should be low-hanging fruit to improve the spotting of balls.

Can also add in additional functionality in the sensor to ensure the pressure of the ball is alright

 

[Hawks46]

Ball placement challenges shouldbe unlimited. They obviously ant get them right. And to say that that would take too much to.e is also ridiculous since the NFL broadcast's a gazillion commercials every five minutes.

No way should they be unlimited. I know that if I was a coach, I would challenge the spot of the ball whenever I needed to slow the offense down going no huddle, or my defense needed a break or to get communication right. I'd never get a 12 men on the field penalty, because that challenge flag would come out right before the ball got snapped.

If I could figure that out, Belichick could figure that out as well. Would add 30 minutes to the game easy.

I actually thought it was pretty funny when Pete mentioned he was going for the hat trick on the Baldwin challenge. At least he had a sense of humor about it.

 

[RichNhansom]

Those three spots were head scratches because they were so blatantly obvious it gave the look of the fix is in but outside of those three spots the officiating I thought, was excellent and they even over ruled the spot on two of them.

It's just a weird coincidence.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

It makes absolutely zero sense how they could be so off on those spots. Just pathetic.

 

[Seymour]

It could all be done with sensors. Sensors in the ball and in the sideline markers. Eliminate the arbitrary human element.

Another part that galls me about spotting, is the way they just randomly set the ball down without making 100% sure it is where it's supposed to go, but yet they bring the chains over and if it is 1/2" off it means a 1st or 4th down. This has always really bugged me.

Sensors aren't the complete fix because there is still the fact that where the knee / runner is down that is combined with exact ball placement. Knee could be down, and ball still moving forward up to a couple of yards difference.

 

[Seymour]

Ball placement challenges shouldbe unlimited. They obviously ant get them right. And to say that that would take too much to.e is also ridiculous since the NFL broadcast's a gazillion commercials every five minutes.

Can't do that either. Teams would use to stop the clock, or slow momentum when they are out or low on time outs.

 

[Year of The Hawk]

What is bad is we wasted our reviews for blatantly bad spots. It is understandable sometimes when the ref cant see something or it happens so quick. I also will echo what someone else said you should get 2 WRONG challenges. If you get them right you should not lose them. If it makes the game take to long then it should be up to the league to fix the product. The way it is now you only get to fix two (maybe three) of the screw ups the refs make but i they make more then you are out of luck. Doesn't seem like a very good model. It IS a fixable problem. I just don't understand why the league is soooo slow to make things better.

 

[253hawk]

The technology works pretty well in soccer. All they'd have to do for NFL replay is look at the X-Y position of the ball when the player's knee/butt/elbow hits the ground and place it accordingly. Having to blow your 2 challenges in the first 10 minutes on ball spots is ridiculous, particularly when you know you'll probably need them for more important things later with how crap the officiating has been this season.

 

[Largent80]

Do you realize a game is only 60 minutes?...A halftime is 15 minutes.

The NFL uses the rest of the time to bombard you with commercials, that is 1 hour and 45 minutes of commercials and you are going to complain about the game being spotted correctly?...Not me. I want that ball where it's supposed to go and if they can't get it right then it should be able to be challenged on any play.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Ball placement challenges shouldbe unlimited. They obviously ant get them right. And to say that that would take too much to.e is also ridiculous since the NFL broadcast's a gazillion commercials every five minutes.

There's has to be consequences, or else coaches would abuse an unlimited system.

4th quarter, we're driving down the field after wearing out the other team for the entire half. Other team's out of timeouts, just keep calling spot challenges so his defense can rest.

This would happen literally every game.

I'm fine with the current system. Ref's are idiots, but as Pete did, he challenged and won. He never should have challenged the last one and lost our last challenge, Doug obviously didn't reach the marker.

 

[Bobblehead]

It's not necessarily where the knee goes down, elbows could be down as well, and then it's actually where the ball is when either the knee or elbow goes down. It would be interesting if they could come up with something, but, I doubt it.

That said, I don't think it's a big enough problem where you need to add more crap to all the other crap that goes on during the game.

 

[Largent80]

I think it's a problem because it influences the outcome of games. An arbitrarily placed ball can keep a drive alive or kill one. Coaches have to waste valuable challenges on something that CAN be controlled.

 

[LeftHandSmoke]

Sensors is a good idea.

It won't tell you when the man is down, but if the view of the ball is obfuscated, you can use the sensor to determine where the ball should be spotted by using the time when you see the knee (or other relevant body part) hit the ground - assuming that is visible.

It's not a fullproof system, and occasionally, everything will be obscured from sight, but it's definitely progress.

If they can implement this in soccer in the UK for goal line technology, with the money in the NFL, this should be low-hanging fruit to improve the spotting of balls.

Can also add in additional functionality in the sensor to ensure the pressure of the ball is alright

There is a LOT good that could be done from using football sensors. Aside from more-correct ball placement, with good stats you could derive insights about different QB's throwing motions on pass plays, trajectories, ball acceleration, rotation rates, pitch, yaw, snap-to-whistle 3D tracks; same for runs, kicks, everything.

Pete has referred to how they used stats during TC this year to track player speed, activity levels (energy expended) and more, from sensors embedded in player equipment.

Data from sensors on balls and players when combined, is a very-very rich space begging for 'exploitation.'

While it is already overdue, there's a pretty good Next Gen Stats video here that describes what is in the works. The 'football' parts starts at about 2m15s :
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-next/0ap3 ... -Gen-Stats

 

[Bobblehead]

Easy solution, if it's at a critical point, say, for a first down, or a score, where ball spotting is critical, well that's when a automatic review for ball spot is placed. No challenge needed.