“We Still Mad”. Bobby Wagner

[hgwellz12]

I need to go roll a joint.

 

[chris98251]

If Wilson had any balls as a leader he would have audibled to a different pass play seeing the Browner Kearse match up and knowing based on his hours and hours of film study what they were going to do.

It may not have worked, but the play called probably had less than a 5 percent chance to succeed, doubt almost any other play would have had such a low chance based on how the defense lined up against us.

 

[Palmegranite]

From what every other poster has said, it's the exact opposite. A Marshawn hand-off would have been stopped dead.

 

[Maelstrom787]

There's a reason that play is considered one of the worst (if not the) ever called. Sure, I can get onboard with a pass play in that situation, but not a slant near the goal line with that kind of congestion, a short QB, and a defense that knew what the play was before the ball was even snapped.

Speaking of situational standpoint, common sense would tell anybody to run Lynch first with the momentum swing and gassed defense and then call your timeout if you don't score. You might even have two chances at a pass afterwards.

Well, yeah, but that's the extent of Carroll's involvement. He asked Bevell to dial up a pass. He delegated to his offensive playcaller. That's not panicking, that's just standard process.

And, no, it is not common sense to run on second down with a single timeout on a running clock with 20 seconds left. You'd want to pass, ideally, to keep your timeout which allows you actual flexibility on third and fourth down rather than being pigeonholed into passing on both downs. You ideally don't waste the single rush attempt you'd have in the scenario where they run on second by sending Lynch into a heavily-outnumbered front.

Lynch got the 4 yard run the play before because the Patriots had a light box. They *doubled* that box on second down and dared us to run it. Bill didn't call timeout and stacked the box to try to bait them into running it, getting stuffed for probably a 2 yard loss, and force Seattle into a one-dimensional goal line offense for the remaining 2 downs.

This comment on r/FootballStrategy where they break down the exact play with a full X-and-O diagram explains it better than I can.

This was second down, 20 seconds and change on the clock.

You're in four down territory to win the Super Bowl, you want to use ALL of those downs.

If they run a run play 2nd down and a run play 3rd down they very likely don't get the 4th down. So if you run a run play 2nd down the 3rd down is pretty easy to predict as a pass play so you can have a chance at the 4th down if you need it.

The pass play is objectively the correct call here and I'm tired of pretending it's not. It's also a good call - the Patriots were just well coached and ready for it.

For me this play will always be a 'Damn Bill Bellichick is so good.' Play and never a 'Damn Pete Carroll is an idiot'.

 

[Maelstrom787]

From what every other poster has said, it's the exact opposite. A Marshawn hand-off would have been stopped dead.

Lynch was a monster, but he wasn't enough of a monster to reliably break 3 TFLs on one play in a goal line situation, which is exactly what he would've had to do in that scenario. It was suicide.

 

[Maelstrom787]

I want to make something very, very clear.


If you get this look at any point during a play, it was not the "worst call of all time" regardless of what actually transpired. We got exactly what we needed here and outside of the WORST POSSIBLE THING HAPPENING due to several factors including the throw being suboptimal, Kearse getting blown up harder than he should've, and Malcolm Butler suddenly understanding a play he'd been burned on all year including in the practices leading up to the game.

The absolute worst outcome possible ended up happening, but this look in the screenshot above? Without the benefit of being able to Captain Hindsight the situation, any offensive coordinator in the world would take that 100 out of 100 times over running into a box where you're outnumbered by 2 or 3 bodies. Any of them.

 

[Ozzy]

Well, yeah, but that's the extent of Carroll's involvement. He asked Bevell to dial up a pass. He delegated to his offensive playcaller. That's not panicking, that's just standard process.

And, no, it is not common sense to run on second down with a single timeout on a running clock with 20 seconds left. You'd want to pass, ideally, to keep your timeout which allows you actual flexibility on third and fourth down rather than being pigeonholed into passing on both downs. You ideally don't waste the single rush attempt you'd have in the scenario where they run on second by sending Lynch into a heavily-outnumbered front.

Lynch got the 4 yard run the play before because the Patriots had a light box. They *doubled* that box on second down and dared us to run it. Bill didn't call timeout and stacked the box to try to bait them into running it, getting stuffed for probably a 2 yard loss, and force Seattle into a one-dimensional goal line offense for the remaining 2 downs.

This comment on r/FootballStrategy where they break down the exact play with a full X-and-O diagram explains it better than I can.

Their explanation has merit and may be 100% true. My struggle with it is the personnel grouping for the play. Your special teams gunner as the only target and Kearse on Browner is just tough for me to defend them. I don’t blame Pete for the call and I think people claiming Pete wanted to make Russ the hero is ridiculous. Expecting Russ to audible that call with the clock and the situation is ridiculous too imo. I still give Bevell the majority of the blame and Bill deserves a ton of credit because they practiced for that play and knew it was coming. The throw wasn’t bad either and if every Patriot didn’t play that perfectly it’s still a touchdown. But my emotions may be clouding me a little and the football strategy explanation probably deserves some more thought on my part.

 

[Ozzy]

I’ve always been a little pissed at Kearse too on this play. Man just slow browner down slightly and it’s probably a touchdown

 

[Ozzy]

Lynch was a monster, but he wasn't enough of a monster to reliably break 3 TFLs on one play in a goal line situation, which is exactly what he would've had to do in that scenario. It was suicide.

Agreed people say “just give it to Lynch” has always baffled me.

 

[strohmin]

If they were going to throw the ball , why not throw it to a bad ass like Mr Doug MF Baldwin instead of a backup WR ?

I guarantee you #89 would've came down with the ball.

Ive stated this many times. Even Doug said he was cookin Reevis all game but Russ didnt even look his way once all game. They could have thrown it to Chris Mathews who was having the game of his life but nope they decide to throw it using the worst personel possible after burning a timeout late. Pete is a great at finding talent and motivating but I cant think of a worse Xs and Os coach.

 

[RolandDeschain]

It sucked. But as bad as it sucked, we lost that game fair and square. The Patriots did what they had to do to win the game, and we didn't.

Contrast that with SBXL*, where it was literally stolen from us, and it's not even close for me which was the worse debacle. (I know this thread isn't about which SB loss was worse, and I'm not trying to make it about that. But speaking for only myself, I can't disassociate them.)

This is my stance as well, XL was way, way, way worse.

 

[Seahawks Guy]

I want to make something very, very clear.

View attachment 66478
If you get this look at any point during a play, it was not the "worst call of all time" regardless of what actually transpired. We got exactly what we needed here and outside of the WORST POSSIBLE THING HAPPENING due to several factors including the throw being suboptimal, Kearse getting blown up harder than he should've, and Malcolm Butler suddenly understanding a play he'd been burned on all year including in the practices leading up to the game.

The absolute worst outcome possible ended up happening, but this look in the screenshot above? Without the benefit of being able to Captain Hindsight the situation, any offensive coordinator in the world would take that 100 out of 100 times over running into a box where you're outnumbered by 2 or 3 bodies. Any of them.

I've been saying this for years. It wasn't a bad play call. It's all completely hindsight bias.

 

[NoGain]

I've been saying this for years. It wasn't a bad play call. It's all completely hindsight bias.

Keep telling yourself that. One can make themselves believe anything.

 

[BASF]

It sucked. But as bad as it sucked, we lost that game fair and square. The Patriots did what they had to do to win the game, and we didn't.

Contrast that with SBXL*, where it was literally stolen from us, and it's not even close for me which was the worse debacle. (I know this thread isn't about which SB loss was worse, and I'm not trying to make it about that. But speaking for only myself, I can't disassociate them.)

The highly illegal forearm shiver to Cliff Avril's head that resulted in our pass rush dwindling should hardly be considered fair and square. It wasn't even remotely like he was trying to block Avril, he left his feet throwing that forearm directly into Avril's head. Completely intentional cheating.

 

[Seahawks Guy]

Keep telling yourself that. One can make themselves believe anything.

Why would I try to convince myself of something false? There's no reward in it.

 

[NoGain]

Why would I try to convince myself of something false? There's no reward in it.

Like I said, one can make themselves believe anything. You're well on your way.

 

[keasley45]

Here's the way i feel about it. I was pissed for a long time, regretting what might have been. But i was judging it from a position of having been spoiled by greatness. Sure, we gave away a legacy opportunity. But if hou had told me in 1998 that over the next 15 years we'd go to 3 superbowls, let alone have won any, i'd have been beside myself... wouldnt have believed it.

So, as much as it stings, even now, looking back, to think we've been to 3 championship games in 19 years and were more than good enough to win all 3... thats not something most fans can say. Its coulda, shoulda, woulda vs did. And what we did was pretty remarkable.

 

[NoGain]

Here's the way i feel about it. I was pissed for a long time, regretting what might have been. But i was judging it from a position of having been spoiled by greatness. Sure, we gave away a legacy opportunity. But if hou had told me in 1998 that over the next 15 years we'd go to 3 superbowls, let alone have one any, i'd have been beside myself... wouldnt have believed it.

So as much as it stings, even now, looking back, to think weve been to 3 championship games in 19 years and were more than good enough to win all 3... thats not something most fans can say. Its coulda, shoulda, woulda vs did. And what we did was pretty remarkable.

Yup. As a general rule, Seattle sports fans have had pretty low bars of expectations. I would contest your notion of "being spoiled by greatness" though. Like you said, we were never a great legacy team like the Patriots, earlier Steeler teams, 9er teams of previous decades, the Lakers of the 80's, Bulls of the 90's, Yankees of the 50's, Celtics of the 60's, Golden State Warriors of the recent decade, the Chiefs of recent years, etc... Those teams were great. To be a great you've got to win, say, three championships. I was never spoiled by Seahawk "greatness". They never achieved that in that legacy sense. They were a great defensive team, a solid offensive team, that flirted with greatness but fell short.

It was a great ride though while it lasted. Lots of wins and fun and a few SB appearances. More than the Lions or Browns, that's for sure.

 

[keasley45]

Yup. As a general rule, Seattle sports fans have had pretty low bars of expectations. I would contest your notion of "being spoiled by greatness" though. Like you said, we were never a great legacy team like the Patriots, earlier Steeler teams, 9er teams of previous decades, the Lakers of the 80's, Bulls of the 90's, Yankees of the 50's, Celtics of the 60's, Golden State Warriors of the recent decade, the Chiefs of recent years, etc... Those teams were great. To be a great you've got to win, say, three championships. I was never spoiled by Seahawk "greatness". They never achieved that in that legacy sense. They were a great defensive team, a solid offensive team, that flirted with greatness but fell short.

It was a great ride though while it lasted. Lots of wins and fun and a few SB appearances. More than the Lions or Browns, that's for sure.

I dont think i see it as greatness as much as i look at what we accomplished. We are still one of the younger franchises in the league but have been to more SBs than half the teams

 

[NoGain]

I dont think i see it as greatness as much as i look at what we accomplished. We are still one of the younger franchises in the league but have been to more SBs than half the teams

It's been a good ride all in all when you combine the Holmgren and Carroll eras. My big ouch came from how close that recent Hawk team came to greatness in that legacy sense. But credit to the Seahawks for raising the fans bars of expectations. It's like we finally entered the big leagues as fans.