Does anyone else think Seattle won the trade?

[hawkfan68]

The discrepancy in the TOP says otherwise.
And MOST of the scoring came in the 4th quarter, with the first 3 SUCKING because of the plethora of 3 & outs. Time to recognize & tell the TRUTH for what it is/was..."Less Plays Involved" can also mean that the Offense had been stymied for much of the game, WHICH IS THE ACTUAL TRUTH and why Russ was hell bent for election to put it all together & try'n win the game in the 4th quarter and playing against the Rams Defense in the last few years...it NEVER WORKED.

The Seahawks defense also allowed 3rd down conversions at 39.3% rate. Which is fairly high. It was probably much higher earlier in the season when the defense couldn't stop anything. Don't you think that also had big impact on TOP?

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With that said, I'm not excusing the 3 and outs...they have far too many of those too but to only use that as the reason why the TOP is unbalanced is a bit off the mark, in my opinion.

 

[Rainger]

Its not though. There is a reason Carroll has a sub .500 record without Wilson.

More absolute bullshit. Of course you can pull out that stupid stat.

PC took over a terrible team won the division with 7 and 9 and beat the SB champs in the playoffs.

The team has had RW for 10 of his 12 years. Years where they were dominant in defence for over 1/2 of them.

Of course his record is under 500 without RW. That is because he built the team for those 2 years to allow RW to flourish.

Without the team PC built RW would have been another washed up 3rd rounder.

Give me a break you believe those 5 years of greatness from 2012 was only because of RW?

Do you even watch the games? Or get your talking points from the media???

 

[BlueTalon]

If they fired Pete & pay Wilson 50million, Wilson would have stayed a Seahawk for life. We would be a better team in the next 5 years compare to where we will be now.

I think this is delusional. This draft, plus the players we got in the trade, set the Seahawks up to be way better in 5 years than they would have been if they had continued to be saddled with a crippling contract and an anemic draft.

 

[BASF]

I think this is delusional. This draft, plus the players we got in the trade, set the Seahawks up to be way better in 5 years than they would have been if they had continued to be saddled with a crippling contract and an anemic draft...

and a QB who ignores open receivers in the middle of the field that move the chains.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Crippling contracts often become 'uncrippling' in a few years when every other QB gets similar #s and the top QBs push for more.

You CAN win without paying your QB, but you have to have a system in place to find and develop promising QBs that will become top QBs. We don't have that in place.

YES JS scouted some of the best QBs that then became stars. Now, who did he scout that didn't? And what would the chances be of even getting those players scouted?

For the most part, great QBs have winning teams. (We will leave out the massage-king as that is a unique circumstance). And for the most part, teams winning and doing well in the playoffs have great QBs.
So for the most part, great QBs are requisite to sustained success in this league. This probably is the reason they are so expensive.

If you refuse to pay for the things that are needed to succeed because they are expensive? They you are refusing your chances to succeed.

Now if you build a great roster out, you can get away with a middling QB (but still not be a real playoff contender consistently).

But that is the reality. Would we have succeeded with Wilson instead of Carroll? Not sure. Probably unlikely. But it would have been a much better chance at success than trying to run it back under Carroll without Wilson.

 

[BASF]

Crippling contracts often become 'uncrippling' in a few years when every other QB gets similar #s and the top QBs push for more.

You CAN win without paying your QB, but you have to have a system in place to find and develop promising QBs that will become top QBs. We don't have that in place.

YES JS scouted some of the best QBs that then became stars. Now, who did he scout that didn't? And what would the chances be of even getting those players scouted?

For the most part, great QBs have winning teams. (We will leave out the massage-king as that is a unique circumstance). And for the most part, teams winning and doing well in the playoffs have great QBs.
So for the most part, great QBs are requisite to sustained success in this league. This probably is the reason they are so expensive.

If you refuse to pay for the things that are needed to succeed because they are expensive? They you are refusing your chances to succeed.

Now if you build a great roster out, you can get away with a middling QB (but still not be a real playoff contender consistently).

But that is the reality. Would we have succeeded with Wilson instead of Carroll? Not sure. Probably unlikely. But it would have been a much better chance at success than trying to run it back under Carroll without Wilson.

It is honestly only a crippling contract if you give it to someone who negatively impacts your team. Those who ignore Wilson missing open receivers and not throwing to a significant area of the field and not adjusting his game after defenses learned how to counter his style of play ignore the fact that his generating three and outs by not throwing to those receivers negatively affect the team.

No QB is perfect, most of them miss open receivers a lot, but there is no arguing with film and Wilson's own words that he won't change his mindset on taking shots downfield into double coverage when there are open receivers elsewhere. Why would anyone want to give that much money to someone who has proven not to adapt to offensive schemes or how the defense is playing him? Why would anyone want to give that much money to someone who's game has been predicated on his speed and improv when things break down when he has lost a step?

I get your argument that he is great in the red zone and under late game pressure, but if the red zone trips are limited by his own limitations as noted above and the late game pressure proved to be a detriment last season in a what have you done for me lately league, why would he deserve that money?

 

[TwistedHusky]

That may be the case BASF. But I would argue the results for the dollars are best spent there, even if I am well aware of some of the flaws/distractions that Wilson seems to have.

The larger problem is we have a weird tendency to save money by not spending on good players, then somehow wasting that money saved on guys that don't move the needle at all.

You can argue we can better spend that money elsewhere. But if you look at the last 5-7 years, you will see that even when we do have that money we don't usually end up with much to show for it.

(We are going to have this argument again when everyone wants to trade DK, and I am well aware of his issues with hands but know damn well that whatever we get with the money saved will probably make us worse, not better.)

We have had a few too many Adams and Eddie Lacey signings for me to not expect we squander whatever cap savings we had. We might even overpay for some 2nd or 3rd tier QB and blow the whole wad.



TLDR:
You cannot pay everybody. But you need to pay somebody. We have a history recently of paying the wrong somebodies.

 

[had2bhawk]

I don't know if seattle WON the trade but I'm a believer in the draft.
Seahawks were stuck with Wilson's salary. He said he wanted to stay in Seattle but his actions went in another direction. Seahawks got a new look and I believe these picks will give the fan base new life.

 

[scutterhawk]

The Seahawks defense also allowed 3rd down conversions at 39.3% rate. Which is fairly high. It was probably much higher earlier in the season when the defense couldn't stop anything. Don't you think that also had big impact on TOP?

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With that said, I'm not excusing the 3 and outs...they have far too many of those too but to only use that as the reason why the TOP is unbalanced is a bit off the mark, in my opinion.

My point here, is that a lot of y'all are excusing the supposed TOP 10 QB for HIS role & share of blame in the Time of Possession argument.
I mean, IF he's not pulling the trigger on some higher percentage check down passes AS HE COULD & SHOULD HAVE (and there were plenty), to keep the chains moving, and give his wearing down Defensive teammates a bit more time to rest.
The TOP had shifted MOST of the load on the Defense, in a LOT of games.
As it stands, some of y'all here are laying the blame on the Defense for all the losses, & giving Russ, (the top ten Quarterback) the credit for producing all the wins, and the fact of the matter is, it's the responsibility of BOTH Offense & Defense to do THEIR PART, & WAAAAY too many 3 & outs by the Offense= wasn't holding up their end.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Give me a break you believe those 5 years of greatness from 2012 was only because of RW?

Do you even watch the games? Or get your talking points from the media???

No, but I believe 2015 to 2020 was. Russ held those sinking teams above water.

I watch every game and have long before Carroll was ever here. As for you, quit letting your fandom cloud whats reality.

 

[Rainger]

As for you, quit letting your (hatred of Pete) fandom cloud whats reality.

Man that is the pot calling the kettle black.

Had RW not been such a petulant ego and only play his sand lot football instead of executing the game plans, 2015 to 2020 would not have been sinking teams.

 

[toffee]

Both the team and Russ needed a reset,

Man that is the pot calling the kettle black.

Had RW not been such a petulant ego and only play his sand lot football instead of executing the game plans, 2015 to 2020 would not have been sinking teams.

I still blame Pete, he should traded Russ in '17 after John scouted Mahomes. Or in '18 after John scouted Josh Allen, heck or last off season when Russ clearly wanted out.

 

[Rainger]

Both the team and Russ needed a reset,

I still blame Pete, he should traded Russ in '17 after John scouted Mahomes. Or in '18 after John scouted Josh Allen, heck or last off season when Russ clearly wanted out.

Yea true. But that shows Pete's loyalty to his players and coaches, to his fault. I still believe he believed he could get RW to change and be a QB like those guys. But RW will only do what RW wants to do.

 

[TwistedHusky]

That 'loyalty' canard makes no sense. Pete should have been loyal to the LOB, to the defensive players like Avril/Bennett and freaking Lynch.

I was labeled a 'Wilson hater' because I didn't want to double down on Wilson. I wanted to see us run it back on that defense, with Lynch, and shore up that line. And get a young QB like Mahomes to be a Wilson-lite as we trade Wilson to the Jets for a ton of draft picks. (Which we could have done).

Instead, we extended Wilson. That made no sense.

But once we extended Wilson, we were all in. Pete's problem was he wanted to win his way when his players/roster and THE RULES OF THE FREAKING NFL were not set up for it.

We could have won another SB if we went all-in on that defense. We didn't.
We might have even been able to have made Pete's ridiculous approach to trying to win games work with another young, cheap QB. We didn't.

 

[scutterhawk]

Yea true. But that shows Pete's loyalty to his players and coaches, to his fault. I still believe he believed he could get RW to change and be a QB like those guys. But RW will only do what RW wants to do.

THIS ^^ & Regardless of all the hate on Pete, he is still heralded and RATED as the 5th BEST HC IN THE NFC over the LAST 12 YEARS.
Only Bill Belichick, John Harbaugh, Andy Reid, & Kliff Kingsburry<-(should be Mike Tomlin) are rated higher.
People act lie Pete didn't do anything to accommodate Wilson...He'd taken the barbs for ALL of Wilson's shortcomings.
It's pretty telling that Pete is still here & Wilson ain't, Jody absolutely got it right.
Better luck to RW, but the BEST of luck to Pete & the Seahawks.

 

[toffee]

Yea true. But that shows Pete's loyalty to his players and coaches, to his fault. I still believe he believed he could get RW to change and be a QB like those guys. But RW will only do what RW wants to do.

I have no doubt that you are right!!

 

[BASF]

That 'loyalty' canard makes no sense. Pete should have been loyal to the LOB, to the defensive players like Avril/Bennett and freaking Lynch.

I was labeled a 'Wilson hater' because I didn't want to double down on Wilson. I wanted to see us run it back on that defense, with Lynch, and shore up that line. And get a young QB like Mahomes to be a Wilson-lite as we trade Wilson to the Jets for a ton of draft picks. (Which we could have done).

Instead, we extended Wilson. That made no sense.

But once we extended Wilson, we were all in. Pete's problem was he wanted to win his way when his players/roster and THE RULES OF THE FREAKING NFL were not set up for it.

We could have won another SB if we went all-in on that defense. We didn't.
We might have even been able to have made Pete's ridiculous approach to trying to win games work with another young, cheap QB. We didn't.

This is my main problem with Pete, is he fully believed that he could easily recreate the defense that he pioneered over and over by bringing in talent to replace the ones that ran it well. He figured, Wilson had the offense covered and he could tinker and tweak the defensive personnel and maintain their dominance. The problem with that is the NFL got very upset with how our defense dominated their golden boy Peyton and his greatest offense ever. They essentially outlawed the way Carroll's defense is designed using player safety as a red herring. The NFL wants ninety point games. The rule changes made the way our defense played obsolete. Carroll was very slow to change his defense even as more and more teams showed they could exploit it and the new rules against it.

The comment about Pete's ridiculous approach to winning games is very interesting, cuz so much of it hinges on Carroll holding Wilson back. Several people have their head in the sand about Wilson being forced to play the way Carroll wants, when you can go back and watch him play the same way in college. Carroll allowed Wilson to slide when he wasn't running the plays as called because the results were there (top ten offense constantly) and he paid for it with the defensive leaders who were all about accountability. The problem with that is Wilson wants to be blameless and as more and more of the offense fell on him, he started getting blamed. Enter the shifting from Wilson on to everyone else and Carroll went by one of his rules of protect the team and tried to keep Wilson in check, but would not do so publicly. A lot of the stalling of the offense is completely on Wilson not throwing to the schemed open receiver. So many comments here are predicated on Wilson being blameless for the offense when he was the one with the ball in his hands for every play.

 

[Rainger]

That 'loyalty' canard makes no sense. Pete should have been loyal to the LOB, to the defensive players like Avril/Bennett and freaking Lynch.

I was labeled a 'Wilson hater' because I didn't want to double down on Wilson. I wanted to see us run it back on that defense, with Lynch, and shore up that line. And get a young QB like Mahomes to be a Wilson-lite as we trade Wilson to the Jets for a ton of draft picks. (Which we could have done).

Instead, we extended Wilson. That made no sense.

But once we extended Wilson, we were all in. Pete's problem was he wanted to win his way when his players/roster and THE RULES OF THE FREAKING NFL were not set up for it.

We could have won another SB if we went all-in on that defense. We didn't.
We might have even been able to have made Pete's ridiculous approach to trying to win games work with another young, cheap QB. We didn't.

Twisted, please re read my post I said "to his fault" you didn't need to go on a rant over Pete.

 

[toffee]

This is my main problem with Pete, is he fully believed that he could easily recreate the defense that he pioneered over and over by bringing in talent to replace the ones that ran it well. He figured, Wilson had the offense covered and he could tinker and tweak the defensive personnel and maintain their dominance. The problem with that is the NFL got very upset with how our defense dominated their golden boy Peyton and his greatest offense ever. They essentially outlawed the way Carroll's defense is designed using player safety as a red herring. The NFL wants ninety point games. The rule changes made the way our defense played obsolete. Carroll was very slow to change his defense even as more and more teams showed they could exploit it and the new rules against it.

The comment about Pete's ridiculous approach to winning games is very interesting, cuz so much of it hinges on Carroll holding Wilson back. Several people have their head in the sand about Wilson being forced to play the way Carroll wants, when you can go back and watch him play the same way in college. Carroll allowed Wilson to slide when he wasn't running the plays as called because the results were there (top ten offense constantly) and he paid for it with the defensive leaders who were all about accountability. The problem with that is Wilson wants to be blameless and as more and more of the offense fell on him, he started getting blamed. Enter the shifting from Wilson on to everyone else and Carroll went by one of his rules of protect the team and tried to keep Wilson in check, but would not do so publicly. A lot of the stalling of the offense is completely on Wilson not throwing to the schemed open receiver. So many comments here are predicated on Wilson being blameless for the offense when he was the one with the ball in his hands for every play.

Interestingly, John , our GM started having doubt around '16 .... Under protest from Wilson, he scouted Mahomes, '17 and Allen '18. He negotiated Wilson trade in '21.

I agree that franchise QB do not grow on trees, but they are out there if one looks. For John63 and friends, think Hawks can win or have good record with Mahomes and Allen?

 

[TwistedHusky]

Pete get the credit for architecting one of the most dominant defenses in NFL history, and one of the most dominant NFL teams period.
He then gets the blame for pulling all the pieces out and stupidly thinking he could replace them.

Because Pete thought it was Pete. That was the core problem. Pete was good at finding great players and putting a system in place to let them be great. He wasn't just good, he was exceptional at it. (or more accurately, he was great at building teams of people that could do this).

He was a motivational and development God. And he also snapped up Scott from the 49ers after Scott filled that team full of ProBowlers.
But again, at some point Pete started thinking he was the reason for this, not the one who helped facilitate it.
The moment he believed he could replace players and be another Bill...we were screwed.

Bill is one of the greatest coaches ever. Pete is/was nowhere near that and thinking he was, was a big part of our problem.


It isn't a rant. Pete WAS great at many things if you could find a way to keep him from screwing himself up. He just isn't anymore.