This team loses way too often due to coaching mistakes

[seabowl]

A lot of interesting comments in this thread. As the OP my intentions were to bring to light that at least IMO I thought we lose too often due to play calling and game planning. Last week's loss was just a head scratcher in that we continued to pound into a brick wall and not throw until it was too late.

In the past with Cabevell as we all witnessed, it was painful to watch and without the pure magic of Russ it would have been much worse. Now that era (last 3 seasons with Cabevell) had more to do with the assistants then Pete but he decides who the assistants are.

Again I think Pete is a great motivator but some of the coaching decisions whether it be play calling or game plan are too often questioned not only by us, but also by the announcers during the games. This is more then I had ever seen and I've been watching 40 years.

 

[BASF]

No he is pointing out Pete Carroll was dealt pocket aces, and squandered it. He had a defense that I would take over any in the history of the game when factoring in modernity, and a HoF QB. He had both. The Patriots & Steelers both had these, and they got a cabinet full of Superbowls to show for it.

The 90's Cowboys who the L.O.B. Seahawks are most similar to got 3 Superbowls out of it with that stacked deck.


Pete still has a chance here to have his redemption. The team is pretty much re-built, an upgrade to the defense that can be handled this off-season Is all that is needed to be Superbowl contenders in '19, and in '20. But it will be all for not if Pete wants to Marty-ball it up. They will get bounced early in the playoffs again.

I was reading an article last night which I found very interesting, and it pointed out that Wilson comfortably outplayed Goff in their 2 meetings head-to-head on a per play basis. But Goff was allowed 70+ throws. Wilson was only allowed a little over 40 throws. So Goff ended up out producing him through sheer volume. Pete has put an artificial ceiling on his team that holds them back by handcuffing his QB. (They don't need to be pass happy, just more balanced.)

They just have to tweak their current formula slightly and they will be alright. If they don't. More Marty-ball seasons to follow.

A cabinet full of Super Bowls is stretching it regarding the Steelers in terms of the reality of modern football. Talking about the last decade, which is honestly the only way to think in terms of rules and systems for team building that matter, the Steelers are the same as us and a few of other teams, been to two Super bowls and won one of them. Even just looking at reaching the championship game, only five franchises have made it more than twice. The fact is that we should have made it in 2012, but that historically great defense could not stop the Falcons in the last seconds. It very easily could have been four consecutive, but (I totally blame Carroll for this) we came out flat and did not match the intensity of the Panthers and they smacked us around in the first half and coasted to victory.

The second part is a classic trap mentality that a lot of people fall into. If you take away, say ten carries from the running game and let Wilson throw it, three to four of those will be incompletions. That stops the clock and would give more time for Goff to be throwing more. Some of them may very well be sacks, which would put us further behind in down and distance. Which of course increases the risk of turnover.

Should we throw more? I agree we should, however, the fact is that this team is not and will not be a throw it forty times a game team. If you look at the teams that had the most pass attempts per game, there are only six teams that made the playoffs in the top half of the league.

 

[Scorpion05]

We knew our defense was young. We knew it. That’s the bottom line. All the pre-season talk on this forum was that the defense will give up plays and there will be growing pains

But instead of accepting that, and letting Wilson loose people are stubbornly defending Carroll and criticizing the defense. It’s beyond comprehension

 

[Sports Hernia]

:2thumbs:

Bill Belicheck is actually pretty crafty as a head coach. Unlike Pete he has the ability to adapt and improvise. He may not be an innovator per say, but he is quick to grab the innovations, and plays from other teams and implement them into his schemes. Bill Belicheck is constantly adapting, and evolving. He isn't beholden to one scheme or philosophy. He knows how to attack you from multiple different angles. One game he'll come out looking like Andy Reid is coaching, and the next it'll look like a Schottenheimer, run it up your gut special, and impose your will on others. He adapts the personnel to fit his players strengths and weaknesses. No two Patriot teams look alike in their approach.

This is Carroll's greatest weakness, especially on offense. He is rigid with his approach, and he refuses to adapt, and evolve. We're using a passing offense that looks straight out of the 70s, pre west coast offense.

Mark my words, under Pete Carroll we will never get a SuperBowl, ever again, period. He has peaked, and now he's just another guy. We'll get consistently 10 wins, maybe 9 in an off year, but it will be one and done, or like this season, a straight up loss in the first game. He is a stubborn fool who refuses to see his short comings, and would rather lose his way, than win with another approach.

I'm frustrated. Carroll squandered one of the best teams of all time, and what we've been witnessing is a slow decline into mediocrity. This is post 2005 Holmgren we're dealing with now, and it is as plain as the day to see. People talk about the 2000 Ravens, and 1985 Bears, the Seahawks were right up there with them. The biggest difference is that we didn't have Dilfer, or and oft injured McMahon as our Quarterbacks. Instead we had a Quarterback that while flawed, and unconventional was one of the most efficient QB's of all time, and has been at least a top 10 QB since his rookie year. Dilfer and McMahon? Career journeyman.

Respect you as a poster Spin, but at this point you are basically whining that we are not the Patriots or Steelers. What you are describing is the reality of the salary cap in football. Teams can longer dominate with rosters that are stacked for years on end. Each team has to retool their rosters and if you think that the roster retooling done by our team this past season with the record we ended up with isn't above the actual talent level on the field, I don't know what to tell you. That roster with say 98% of the other coaches in the league don't win more than six games.

No he is pointing out Pete Carroll was dealt pocket aces, and squandered it. He had a defense that I would take over any in the history of the game when factoring in modernity, and a HoF QB. He had both. The Patriots & Steelers both had these, and they got a cabinet full of Superbowls to show for it.

The 90's Cowboys who the L.O.B. Seahawks are most similar to got 3 Superbowls out of it with that stacked deck.


Pete still has a chance here to have his redemption. The team is pretty much re-built, an upgrade to the defense that can be handled this off-season Is all that is needed to be Superbowl contenders in '19, and in '20. But it will be all for not if Pete wants to Marty-ball it up. They will get bounced early in the playoffs again.

I was reading an article last night which I found very interesting, and it pointed out that Wilson comfortably outplayed Goff in their 2 meetings head-to-head on a per play basis. But Goff was allowed 70+ throws. Wilson was only allowed a little over 40 throws. So Goff ended up out producing him through sheer volume. Pete has put an artificial ceiling on his team that holds them back by handcuffing his QB. (They don't need to be pass happy, just more balanced.)

They just have to tweak their current formula slightly and they will be alright. If they don't. More Marty-ball seasons to follow.

Nailed it! Post of the year right there! :2thumbs:

 

[Sports Hernia]

I'm frustrated. Carroll squandered one of the best teams of all time, and what we've been witnessing is a slow decline into mediocrity.

Can I ask what your pre-season expectations of this team was back in August? Jesus, we just went 10-6, made the playoffs in a rebuild year. Sorry, "re-tool."

Slow decline into mediocrity? I have news for you, this is the BEST it's ever going to be in our lifetime, so knock off the hyperbolic hand wringing and enjoy the ride. It's freaking HARD to win the NFL, REALLY hard.

We are one of the lucky few, look around the league. From top to bottom we're a top 2-3 organization with a fantastic ownership group, GM, coach that give us great chances to make the playoffs each and every year and hopefully continue to rebuild the next great Hawk team to get back to another SB.

Have a little perspective, and stop dwelling on one playoff game, or one negative aspect of how Pete coaches. He's sure as hell not perfect, but he's a great coach. Have faith, it's so much more fun.

I thought we were going to go anywhere from 7-9 to 9-7 with a chance at a playoff birth if we established a running game, and one of our wide receivers stepped up. The team wasn't as bad as people thought. Many of these guys were shown to be decent players in 2017. Key pieces such as Reed, Griffin (though he regressed), Carson, and our safeties actually played decent football whenever they were in. the year prior. Coleman was also a sleeper that played a role as nickle cornerback this year. In 2017 he ranked as one of the highest rated nickle cornerbacks in terms of DVOA.

As far as Super Bowl goes, not ever going to happen underneath Pete. As I said, he's going to be a 10-6, 9-7 sort of coach from here on out. That is how it has been since 2015, there is nothing to suggest things are going to change. We're under .500 in the playoffs since 2015. His issue is, while he's really good at setting up a program, he is not a great in game coach when he gets thrown off his game plan. He also is particularly stubborn when it comes to his offenses. His time management especially is atrocious. I feel as if he needs to become a Tomlin type of a coach. Tomlin sets up the overall program, and is obviously the leader. He sets up the overall game plan, and direction of the team, and just leaves his coordinators to do their jobs. I think Carroll would be successful in this type of a role.

Unfortunately though Carroll is a tease. He is like a sexy woman that acts like she wants to do the dirty deed with you. She keeps giving you the signs, but in the end she is just teasing, and toying with you. This is Carroll's coaching regime. So capable in many ways, yet inept in others. People keep talking about how we got to the Super Bowl last time, and "the winning formula" but that was 6 years ago. The situation was much different. It was a combination of some of the best draft classes of all time, and rookie contracts all around combined with a large sum of cash that allowed us to pick up Bennett, Avril, and a handful of role players, plus a defensive scheme that was unconventional in the NFL. The likely hood of that ever happening again? Slim to none.

I am/was one of the biggest critics of the coaching staff costing Seattle the playoff game in Dallas, which I still believe. But.....
to say they are not going back to the Super Bowl ever becuase of coaching mistakes in a playoff game (in a season very few expecting the to make the playoffs) is a road to far IMHO.

Fade nailed it in his post where he said there needs to be slight tweaks in philosophy and how they approach things (gameplanning/playcalling). This coaching staff is very capable of doing that.

While Pete and his philosophy’s, actions, and stubbornness irritate the hell out of me at times, he went to back to back Super Bowls, and he and John know how to build a championship team.

 

[TwistedHusky]

The conundrum with Carroll is that he is tremendous at 2 things:

1 - Football arbitrage
He finds areas of value that other teams overlook because it does not fit the current trends, then he brings those people in (at low cost) to exploit the weaknesses those trends represent. Currently, our emphasis on rushing comes because so many teams are going lighter and faster on defenses in order to rush the QB. The irony is that we were one of those first teams going so light and fast. The other example is how he almost pioneered the big corner and Kam-backer trend with the SS. When you lose Carroll you lose this pipeline of productive players.

2 - Developing talent
This pretty much needs no explanation.

What this means is that he has a knack for finding pieces. His teams tend to be loaded with producers and he can get productive guys almost off the waiver wire or UDFA space.

But he is terrible at:

1 - Building effective staff
Constant issues with keeping underperformers and hiring them in the first place. We occasionally get a few good ones, but for every Kris Richard we seemingly cling to 3-4 Bevells, Cables, and whatever else. This follows way back to USC.

2 - Gameday coaching
He doesn't make adjustments effectively at all, most often not making them at all. If something crucial is not working in the game - it will probably be why they lose because he will not change anything during the game. He is Ride Or Die with the gameplan he comes in with - regardless of personnel, matchups, or how well it is working. Sometimes injury may change tactics but even that is rare.

3 - Using the very pieces he has brought to the table (from his strengths) as effectively as he could.
He always seems to leave chips on the table. Or force a style of play that does not leverage the team strengths at all (sometimes even exacerbating weaknesses massively). So he is almost always going to underperform in the playoffs, especially when faced with some of the better teams & coaches that will exploit the weaknesses these flawed approaches create.

We had a 10 win season because of those strengths. But we produced a result in the playoffs like an 8 win team because of those weaknesses. The solution is more to ratchet back expectations than try to change something.

 

[seabowl]

The conundrum with Carroll is that he is tremendous at 2 things:

1 - Football arbitrage
He finds areas of value that other teams overlook because it does not fit the current trends, then he brings those people in (at low cost) to exploit the weaknesses those trends represent. Currently, our emphasis on rushing comes because so many teams are going lighter and faster on defenses in order to rush the QB. The irony is that we were one of those first teams going so light and fast. The other example is how he almost pioneered the big corner and Kam-backer trend with the SS. When you lose Carroll you lose this pipeline of productive players.

2 - Developing talent
This pretty much needs no explanation.

What this means is that he has a knack for finding pieces. His teams tend to be loaded with producers and he can get productive guys almost off the waiver wire or UDFA space.

But he is terrible at:

1 - Building effective staff
Constant issues with keeping underperformers and hiring them in the first place. We occasionally get a few good ones, but for every Kris Richard we seemingly cling to 3-4 Bevells, Cables, and whatever else. This follows way back to USC.

2 - Gameday coaching
He doesn't make adjustments effectively at all, most often not making them at all. If something crucial is not working in the game - it will probably be why they lose because he will not change anything during the game. He is Ride Or Die with the gameplan he comes in with - regardless of personnel, matchups, or how well it is working. Sometimes injury may change tactics but even that is rare.

3 - Using the very pieces he has brought to the table (from his strengths) as effectively as he could.
He always seems to leave chips on the table. Or force a style of play that does not leverage the team strengths at all (sometimes even exacerbating weaknesses massively). So he is almost always going to underperform in the playoffs, especially when faced with some of the better teams & coaches that will exploit the weaknesses these flawed approaches create.

We had a 10 win season because of those strengths. But we produced a result in the playoffs like an 8 win team because of those weaknesses. The solution is more to ratchet back expectations than try to change something.

#2 especially is spot on

 

[Spin Doctor]

I'm frustrated. Carroll squandered one of the best teams of all time, and what we've been witnessing is a slow decline into mediocrity.

Can I ask what your pre-season expectations of this team was back in August? Jesus, we just went 10-6, made the playoffs in a rebuild year. Sorry, "re-tool."

Slow decline into mediocrity? I have news for you, this is the BEST it's ever going to be in our lifetime, so knock off the hyperbolic hand wringing and enjoy the ride. It's freaking HARD to win the NFL, REALLY hard.

We are one of the lucky few, look around the league. From top to bottom we're a top 2-3 organization with a fantastic ownership group, GM, coach that give us great chances to make the playoffs each and every year and hopefully continue to rebuild the next great Hawk team to get back to another SB.

Have a little perspective, and stop dwelling on one playoff game, or one negative aspect of how Pete coaches. He's sure as hell not perfect, but he's a great coach. Have faith, it's so much more fun.

I thought we were going to go anywhere from 7-9 to 9-7 with a chance at a playoff birth if we established a running game, and one of our wide receivers stepped up. The team wasn't as bad as people thought. Many of these guys were shown to be decent players in 2017. Key pieces such as Reed, Griffin (though he regressed), Carson, and our safeties actually played decent football whenever they were in. the year prior. Coleman was also a sleeper that played a role as nickle cornerback this year. In 2017 he ranked as one of the highest rated nickle cornerbacks in terms of DVOA.

As far as Super Bowl goes, not ever going to happen underneath Pete. As I said, he's going to be a 10-6, 9-7 sort of coach from here on out. That is how it has been since 2015, there is nothing to suggest things are going to change. We're under .500 in the playoffs since 2015. His issue is, while he's really good at setting up a program, he is not a great in game coach when he gets thrown off his game plan. He also is particularly stubborn when it comes to his offenses. His time management especially is atrocious. I feel as if he needs to become a Tomlin type of a coach. Tomlin sets up the overall program, and is obviously the leader. He sets up the overall game plan, and direction of the team, and just leaves his coordinators to do their jobs. I think Carroll would be successful in this type of a role.

Unfortunately though Carroll is a tease. He is like a sexy woman that acts like she wants to do the dirty deed with you. She keeps giving you the signs, but in the end she is just teasing, and toying with you. This is Carroll's coaching regime. So capable in many ways, yet inept in others. People keep talking about how we got to the Super Bowl last time, and "the winning formula" but that was 6 years ago. The situation was much different. It was a combination of some of the best draft classes of all time, and rookie contracts all around combined with a large sum of cash that allowed us to pick up Bennett, Avril, and a handful of role players, plus a defensive scheme that was unconventional in the NFL. The likely hood of that ever happening again? Slim to none.

I am/was one of the biggest critics of the coaching staff costing Seattle the playoff game in Dallas, which I still believe. But.....
to say they are not going back to the Super Bowl ever becuase of coaching mistakes in a playoff game (in a season very few expecting the to make the playoffs) is a road to far IMHO.

Fade nailed it in his post where he said there needs to be slight tweaks in philosophy and how they approach things (gameplanning/playcalling). This coaching staff is very capable of doing that.

While Pete and his philosophy’s, actions, and stubbornness irritate the hell out of me at times, he went to back to back Super Bowls, and he and John know how to build a championship team.

I'm not basing my assertion on the Dallas game, I'm basing it off of his overall body of work. Pete built a Super Bowl team but it isn't happening again. Wilson was being paid pennies, Tate, and Baldwin were in their rookie contracts, we drafted 3 potential HOFers in the last three drafts in Sherman, Thomas, and Wagner. Our team was then able to throw considerable resources at free agents. Among those free agents was Avril, and Bennett, along with McDaniel. I don't think the SuperBowl happens without those three.

Pete Carroll had one of the best teams in the history of the NFL. Not only that, the core players were paid pennies on the dollar, which allowed the Seahawks to acquire cheap talent. Even on offense we were absolutely loaded. Tate, Baldwin, and Kearse would be one of the better WR trios in the NFL, we had a solid TE, and a really good QB and running back. We also had a decent offensive line.

Since the Super Bowl our drafts have been only OKAY. Many of our acquisitions via trade and free agency haven't been good fits either. Carroll has kept incompetent staff well past their expiration date, and hired a re-tread to replace him that is a proven failure. Our coaching during in game situations is infuriating.

Carroll will never be in another Super Bowl game, ever again, nor will he ever hold the Lombardi. It is easy to say "but if Carroll does this we will be in business" but the thing is, the tendencies we're complaining about were the same exact gripes USC fans complained about in the USC days. It's not easy for a tiger to change their stripes.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Well there you have it, might as well not even watch the games next year :irishdrinkers:

 

[LudwigsDrummer]

This thread could also be titled "Seahawks win lots of games mainly due to PC being our HC".

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I'm frustrated. Carroll squandered one of the best teams of all time, and what we've been witnessing is a slow decline into mediocrity.

Can I ask what your pre-season expectations of this team was back in August? Jesus, we just went 10-6, made the playoffs in a rebuild year. Sorry, "re-tool."

Slow decline into mediocrity? I have news for you, this is the BEST it's ever going to be in our lifetime, so knock off the hyperbolic hand wringing and enjoy the ride. It's freaking HARD to win the NFL, REALLY hard.

We are one of the lucky few, look around the league. From top to bottom we're a top 2-3 organization with a fantastic ownership group, GM, coach that give us great chances to make the playoffs each and every year and hopefully continue to rebuild the next great Hawk team to get back to another SB.

Have a little perspective, and stop dwelling on one playoff game, or one negative aspect of how Pete coaches. He's sure as hell not perfect, but he's a great coach. Have faith, it's so much more fun.

I thought we were going to go anywhere from 7-9 to 9-7 with a chance at a playoff birth if we established a running game, and one of our wide receivers stepped up. The team wasn't as bad as people thought. Many of these guys were shown to be decent players in 2017. Key pieces such as Reed, Griffin (though he regressed), Carson, and our safeties actually played decent football whenever they were in. the year prior. Coleman was also a sleeper that played a role as nickle cornerback this year. In 2017 he ranked as one of the highest rated nickle cornerbacks in terms of DVOA. .

Then why are you complaining, the Hawks (and Pete coaching them) exceeded your expectations.

Perspective.

If we went 5-11, then I'm all for criticizing Pete. It's this notion that we lost that we need to come up with reasons we should have won, thus why this thread exists.........as opposed to being realistic and using perspective to see that this team over achieved during a rebuild year, and even making the playoffs and going 10-6 was a great achievement.

But no, Lose = SOMETHING MUST BE WRONG SOMEONE DID A TERRIBLE JOB OMG PETE WON'T EVER GET US BACK TO A SB!!

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Proud to have Pete as the coach of this team. He did a hell of a job. That being said, he's not above criticism in this recent playoff game. He chose to be too stubborn, it cost them the game. They didn't adjust in game, period. After all these years, why is he, along w/the coaching staff so reluctant to let Russ take over earlier in the game??

 

[johnnyfever]

Pete coming out at the beginning of this year and trying to sling it shows he can be open. We didn't have the discipline yet or the personnel developed for that, which is why it didn't work out. Hopefully after watching the tape of how we struggled without adaptation, and how the rams were able to run because of play action backing up the defense, he sees that more of a mixture in some games would make better sense.

I love Pete and what he has brought here, and have never in a single post said he should be let go. That does not mean though that I will put blinders on and refuse to see when he blatantly messes up from a strategy and game planning perspective.

We should have won that Dallas game. Dammit.

 

[scutterhawk]

It was a MONUMENTAL mistake, and more than that, it was an OBVIOUS mistake.

The fact that you cannot see that is on you.

Ya, That whistling sound you hear?, it's something that went over your head.
When he has injured players that are UNABLE to make PHYSICAL ADJUSTMENTS, he takes the blame.....It's called COACH SPEAK.
"By his own admission", LOLOLOL

 

[scutterhawk]

NM

 

[beaumaris]

If Pete coached had the Cowboys team they would be SB contenders and last nights game wouldnt have been close.If Red coached the Seahawks we would be sub 500.

Nonsense. :roll:

 

[johnnyfever]

It was a MONUMENTAL mistake, and more than that, it was an OBVIOUS mistake.

The fact that you cannot see that is on you.

Ya, That whistling sound you hear?, it's something that went over your head.
When he has injured players that are UNABLE to make PHYSICAL ADJUSTMENTS, he takes the blame.....It's called COACH SPEAK.
"By his own admission", LOLOLOL

So by your logic the line magically healed up by the 4th quarter when we finally decided to open the playbook?

Quick passes, slants, hot routes, play action helps the line, not hinder it.

 

[scutterhawk]

It was a MONUMENTAL mistake, and more than that, it was an OBVIOUS mistake.

The fact that you cannot see that is on you.

Ya, That whistling sound you hear?, it's something that went over your head.
When he has injured players that are UNABLE to make PHYSICAL ADJUSTMENTS, he takes the blame.....It's called COACH SPEAK.
"By his own admission", LOLOLOL

So by your logic the line magically healed up by the 4th quarter when we finally decided to open the playbook?

Quick passes, slants, hot routes, play action helps the line, not hinder it.

So I didn't go into detail enough for you...Shaq messed up on more than one play, like Kris Richards KNEW he would.
Offensive players did their best, but were unable to make SOME critical plays WHEN THEY WERE NEEDED MOST, and NOT just in the 4th quarter.

Shit Happens, & Coach Speak Happens.
The fact that the Seahawks were even in the playoffs THIS SEASON, and came to within THREE POINTS to winning a road game, gives testament to Pete Carroll's Coaching acumen.

 

[seedhawk]

We actually lose 2 to 3 times the number of games due to pure plain ass poor coaching then we do to coaching mistakes.

 

[johnnyfever]

It was a MONUMENTAL mistake, and more than that, it was an OBVIOUS mistake.

The fact that you cannot see that is on you.

Ya, That whistling sound you hear?, it's something that went over your head.
When he has injured players that are UNABLE to make PHYSICAL ADJUSTMENTS, he takes the blame.....It's called COACH SPEAK.
"By his own admission", LOLOLOL

So by your logic the line magically healed up by the 4th quarter when we finally decided to open the playbook?

Quick passes, slants, hot routes, play action helps the line, not hinder it.

So I didn't go into detail enough for you...Shaq messed up on more than one play, like Kris Richards KNEW he would.
Offensive players did their best, but were unable to make SOME critical plays WHEN THEY WERE NEEDED MOST, and NOT just in the 4th quarter.

Shit Happens, & Coach Speak Happens.
The fact that the Seahawks were even in the playoffs THIS SEASON, and came to within THREE POINTS to winning a road game, gives testament to Pete Carroll's Coaching acumen.

This stuff happens every game. No corner is ever perfect, just like no game is without a few poor play calls. A handful of mistakes by personnel is expected.

If you design your gameplan around a second year corner making no mistakes, then again this is a poor strategy.

So to use your statement, let me go into more detail for you...

We waited too long to adjust to the cowboys stacking the box to stop the run. Their backend was massively vulnerable as they kept not only a full time spy on wilson, but also kept the front seven velcrod' to the line of scrimmage. We had either weak open zone or man coverage all day. This is why the coaches and players after watching the tape said they should have passed more, not because shaq did what shaq always does.