Bird’s Eye View (An Evaluation of The Team's Moves) ...

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Hawkscanner

Hawkscanner

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Uncle Si":164cki5a said:
pittpnthrs":164cki5a said:
Uncle Si":164cki5a said:
I don't disagree that the conversation needed to take place.

However.. when you do it publicly you are forcing yourself into a position of representing the team. You need to do that accordingly. He did not.

I think he had to go public because nothing was being done. Look back now, and he was right. The necessary changes of getting rid of Bevell and Cable finally happened albeit years later than it should have.

Sure...

Then do so accordingly. Don't throw people under the bus, isolate teammates and drive drama to the doorstep of the team. He threatened a media member, yelled at coaches during games, made snide comments about his teammates (QB) publicly and on more than one occasion was caught lying about comments.

This is not leadership. I accepted his standing up for the team at that time as I hoped he was trying to be that person. It became clear he was not, or was atleast not doing a good job.

He is doing the same thing now that he's gone. This is about him, not the team. Im over that

Yep Uncle Si. What you're describing right there ... is classic Narcissism. Those are exactly the kinds of things that Narcissists actually do. They can cause an unbelievable amount of chaos. Trust me, I ought to know (as do the family members of those whom I've worked with as well). THAT right there is why (whether you like Sherman or not) this team HAD to cut bait. Just had to.
 

Sgt. Largent

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I agree with you Hawksscanner, I just think it's a year or two late.

We held onto too many overpriced vets that no longer played up to their contracts, either due to age or injury........AND were divisive in the locker room.

For all of Pete's attributes, and there are many, he was far too stubborn in thinking he could circle the wagons and stop the toxic culture and performance that was making this team slide the wrong direction.

My hope is that Pete's learned his lesson and gets back to what he does well, teach young and hungry players. As opposed to what he's been doing the past 3-4 years, babysit and do damage control with players who no longer wanted to hear his "Kumbaya."
 

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pittpnthrs":1xj7il88 said:
Uncle Si":1xj7il88 said:
I don't disagree that the conversation needed to take place.

However.. when you do it publicly you are forcing yourself into a position of representing the team. You need to do that accordingly. He did not.

I think he had to go public because nothing was being done. Look back now, and he was right. The necessary changes of getting rid of Bevell and Cable finally happened albeit years later than it should have.

BS. Being right means never throwing from the 1 again, that was the main pet peeve of Sherman that came out.

He is and was wrong about that, and it is a completely ridiculous request (and especially so with our crap magic run game) And yes...I too hated that play call, but so what? :roll:
 

pittpnthrs

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If it was only Sherman than I could see it, but its been so many others. You had Sherman with his tantrums, Lynch before him even going as far as flipping the coaching staff off in the middle of a game. ET running into the opponents locker room after a game asking them to sign him, Baldwin shoving Cable and also flipping off Bevell (joke or not,,,who knows), Bennett never shutting up with his on and off field antics, Clarks rap sheet and him punching a teammate, etc,,,,. A lot of blame being thrown at Sherman when most of the blame should be addressed towards the guy who allowed and encouraged that type of atmosphere in the first place, and thats Pete.
 

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SoulfishHawk":108k9ky6 said:
I stuck of for Sherm for years, his act just got old. It's clearly about him only at this point.

Sherman is his own worst enemy. All that crap about "you never played the game at this level so you know nothing" is the biggest bunch of pure crap ever spouted. For being "so smart", he sure said some stupid things. Anyone can learn from anyone else, no matter the experience. A fresh set of eyes from a different perspective that is not muddled with emotion of being "in the problem", is often worth listening too.

Sure they can be way off also, but that doesn't mean you just slam the door to any opinion because "you haven't done that" before.

Why go to school and learn from a teacher or a text book? Did that teacher fight the war? Did that teacher invent electricity??....ect ect. :pukeface:
 

Lords of Scythia

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Hawkscanner":2wq9u0ji said:
This is the first post that I’ve had for awhile, as I’ve really wanted to sit back and evaluate the situation from afar … listen to all the analysis … and watch what actually happens. Now that the dominoes have started to really fall, it appears pretty clear from a big picture standpoint what’s happening.

710 ESPN’s Brock and Salk have been right on the money IMO in their evaluations of this team, where they’re at, and what the Seahawks are doing. And that is --

Whether or not you’re the Seahawks or the Patriots – the same exact thing is true. It doesn’t matter if you’re Pete Carroll (with the Pom Pom Pete Approach) … or Bill Belichick (with the My Way or the Highway Approach) – the brutal truth of the matter is regardless of the coaching approach, the message gets stale after awhile. After awhile, success is just not sustainable with the same group of players. Why? Human nature. After a time, people tend to tune out after they’ve heard the same message over and over again. That's why coaches and managers get fired so often.

Complacency sets in eventually as well IMO. When players get paid, when they are fat and happy, there is a human nature tendency to sit back on your laurels a bit. Carroll and others have said it (in one form or another) many times – We want our players young, poor, and hungry.

And as we all know as well, football is a young man’s game. This sport in particular will beat you up. Father Time is undefeated and football in particular will age you real quick. Carroll is always preaching about wanting guys who are young and flying around.

All of that inevitably leads to what we’ve seen and the moves that have been made thus far. But it goes beyond that IMO. What I’m going to say below is probably going to be highly unpopular for many people … but I honestly do believe that this is another BIG REASON why you’ve seen certain veterans cut loose. I’ll focus my comments specifically on that by discussing Richard Sherman (the biggest example and the one that's most forefront right now).

Let me say right up front that cutting Richard Sherman was the Bar None 100% Right Move for this Team Moving Forward …

Now, I love Richard Sherman the player and who he was on the field for this Seahawks team. I love the talent. Richard Sherman in his prime – I love his ability to be a shutdown corner – a guy who absolutely can change a game single-handedly. I will always be grateful for him and what he did for this Seahawks team. I will forever remember “the Tip” with great giddiness and childlike glee. In a lot of ways, he does and will always have a special place in my heart. He was a fantastic player for us – one of the all time Seahawk greats … AND it was definitely time to part ways with him.

Why?

It’s not just about the money. That’s a given that the Seahawks needed to cut him given how much money he was slated to make. It’s also not just because of his age, his physical status, and his Achilles injury (although that’s a huge reason why, given his age, and contract status they needed to cut him loose). No, there was a much bigger and more important reason (beyond the money, beyond the age, and beyond his health status) of why this was the right move IMO.

Coming into work this morning, I was listening Mike Salk on 710 ESPN going off on Richard Sherman, citing several incidences of him being “a liar” (in his words). He played several clips of past interviews – things that Sherman had said that were on record … that Sherman later said of that he was misquoted on or just flat out denied there was any evidence of him ever saying. [That’s known as Gaslighting by the way] He also played an audio clip of him telling Jim Moore that he was going to ruin his career.

All of that just made me laugh because all of that IMO just so shows who Sherman truly is. I’m a therapist by trade, so I'll share with you guys my perspective from the clinician's chair. Though I’ve always loved Richard Sherman the elite player … I’ve also always recognized that there would eventually come a time that the Seahawks needed to cut bait.

Over time it's become fairly clear that Richard Sherman … is a classic Narcissist. Textbook. Some of you out there who grew up with Narcissistic fathers or mothers know full well the pain of growing up with and dealing with these people. You guys will understand what I’m going to say. In a nutshell, these folks are some of the most difficult to treat and deal with bar none. Growing up in a Narcissistic home … can in a word be a nightmare. You see, as the name implies, Narcissists are all about only 1 person – themselves. They are ever only on 1 team … their own.

Narcissists are quite often highly engaging people. They are often very smart, highly articulate, well spoken, charismatic, confident individuals. They make for great interviews. They can be great leaders (as long as people go along with them). That’s what draws people to them.

However, there is a real serious downside to these kind of people. To say that they are self centered is a massive understatement. “It’s all about me” is the narcissistic person’s mantra. Image is everything. It’s about making the outside of my life look pretty … because on the inside, they feel there is a whole lot of “yuck.” When push comes to shove, Narcissists will choose themselves each and every time. It’s not about what’s best for the team or for others … it’s what best for me. If that’s all that personality type entailed, I’m sure many could overlook that. If you’ve ever lived or worked with a narcissist though … you will know full well just how divisive these people can be.

Narcissists are best of the best manipulators out there that there are. Bar none. They are amazing in their ability to cause division and pit people against one another. Once you really grasp what they are doing … it can be quite stunning to behold.

People have been talking about division in the locker room. There are clubhouse cancers (people have been saying). I would agree with you wholeheartedly and I fully believe Richard Sherman was one of those. You see, Full Blown Narcissists (as long as things are going THEIR WAY) … will be your best buddy. It’s when you’re the man in charge … and they start to disagree with you … that things will start to go awry. They are amazing in their ability to cause issues in a group. They are generally highly intelligent and manipulative to a stunning degree. They are really good at pitting people against one another and stirring up trouble.

You can deal with (put up with this kind of a personality) as long as the positives of what they bring to the table … outweigh all of the other nonsense. What happens when that player is no longer elite though? What happens when they’re NOT the best anymore (but they think they are)? What happens when someone who prides themselves on being the best (believes they are the best, the most beautiful, the most perfect) suddenly starts to realize that fragile fake image they’ve spent their entire existence trying so hard to maintain is starting to melt away? Then, it’s Uh-oh time. You don’t want to be anywhere around that. Let me tell you from experience, there are few things in life less pleasant than an aging Narcissist. That’s when they can start to get real nasty and vindictive. That’s when they become that unbearable cancer that you just can’t deal with anymore. Whether you’re talking Richard Sherman … Terrell Owens … or Deion Sanders … there comes a time when it’s just time to say goodbye.

And If threatened or hurt ... Narcissists will look punish those around them. If you disrespect them or harm them in any way, then Narcissists will tend to lash out. They will look to humiliate you, embarrass you, piss you off, etc. – to make themselves feel good. Why is it (of all teams out there) that Sherman decided to go the 49ers? Why them? The Seahawks most hated division rival, no less. Make no mistake about it folks. That move by Sherman I would say is exactly the kind of vengeance move that a Narcissist would make.

All of that is precisely why this team was in desperate need of cutting bait of guys like this. You can put up with prima donnas as long as they can continue to bring the house down … but when their vocals start to go, it’s time to drop the curtain.

Time for the next act folks – bring on the next generation of younger, cheaper, and highly driven players. The Patriots have gone through this same re-boot process time and time again. As painful as it is to watch for us, I would say that we’re just seeing the normal life cycle of the NFL. I have no idea exactly what to expect from this team (Wins and Losses wise this upcoming year) … but I’m convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is what had to happen.
Great post! I think you're right. You think Jordan was narc? He got pretty arrogant there at the end (shrugging at the camera after making some stunning shot in a championship game) but I always thought certain people can get away with it. Wilson is the opposite--he just shuts up and goes and kicks ass--now it's gonna be him on Sherm twice a season.

GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

pittpnthrs

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Seymour":2v7uilqa said:
pittpnthrs":2v7uilqa said:
Uncle Si":2v7uilqa said:
I don't disagree that the conversation needed to take place.

However.. when you do it publicly you are forcing yourself into a position of representing the team. You need to do that accordingly. He did not.

I think he had to go public because nothing was being done. Look back now, and he was right. The necessary changes of getting rid of Bevell and Cable finally happened albeit years later than it should have.

BS. Being right means never throwing from the 1 again, that was the main pet peeve of Sherman that came out.

He is and was wrong about that, and it is a completely ridiculous request (and especially so with our crap magic run game) And yes...I too hated that play call, but so what? :roll:

I get you, but Sherman was bitter about more things than just 'The Play'. In his defense though, the team has tried to run that same slant play a few more times since then and still had the same disastrous results. :D
 

Seymour

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pittpnthrs":2wvqlwh5 said:
Seymour":2wvqlwh5 said:
pittpnthrs":2wvqlwh5 said:
Uncle Si":2wvqlwh5 said:
I don't disagree that the conversation needed to take place.

However.. when you do it publicly you are forcing yourself into a position of representing the team. You need to do that accordingly. He did not.

I think he had to go public because nothing was being done. Look back now, and he was right. The necessary changes of getting rid of Bevell and Cable finally happened albeit years later than it should have.

BS. Being right means never throwing from the 1 again, that was the main pet peeve of Sherman that came out.

He is and was wrong about that, and it is a completely ridiculous request (and especially so with our crap magic run game) And yes...I too hated that play call, but so what? :roll:

I get you, but Sherman was bitter about more things than just 'The Play'. In his defense though, the team has tried to run that same slant play a few more times since then and still had the same disastrous results. :D

That is no defense. There has NOT been another game lost from a pass getting picked at the one (ie...same disastrous results)

Where do you come up with that?
 

Sgt. Largent

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pittpnthrs":3tgrsjtb said:
Seymour":3tgrsjtb said:
pittpnthrs":3tgrsjtb said:
Uncle Si":3tgrsjtb said:
I don't disagree that the conversation needed to take place.

However.. when you do it publicly you are forcing yourself into a position of representing the team. You need to do that accordingly. He did not.

I think he had to go public because nothing was being done. Look back now, and he was right. The necessary changes of getting rid of Bevell and Cable finally happened albeit years later than it should have.

BS. Being right means never throwing from the 1 again, that was the main pet peeve of Sherman that came out.

He is and was wrong about that, and it is a completely ridiculous request (and especially so with our crap magic run game) And yes...I too hated that play call, but so what? :roll:

I get you, but Sherman was bitter about more things than just 'The Play'. In his defense though, the team has tried to run that same slant play a few more times since then and still had the same disastrous results. :D


Being an old school sports fan who played lots of sports all the way through college, I just can't get past this mentality of any player publicly questioning or criticizing his coach, owner, GM, etc......or even privately.

I'm like Belichick, I coach, you shut your mouth and play, and if you don't you're gone. It's as simple as that. No one is ever bigger than the team, you never question the coach.

But like I've said in other threads, Sherman and other players publicly criticizing Pete is his own doing. This is the downside of "I let my players be themselves."
 

Uncle Si

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pittpnthrs":28qbqik0 said:
If it was only Sherman than I could see it, but its been so many others. You had Sherman with his tantrums, Lynch before him even going as far as flipping the coaching staff off in the middle of a game. ET running into the opponents locker room after a game asking them to sign him, Baldwin shoving Cable and also flipping off Bevell (joke or not,,,who knows), Bennett never shutting up with his on and off field antics, Clarks rap sheet and him punching a teammate, etc,,,,. A lot of blame being thrown at Sherman when most of the blame should be addressed towards the guy who allowed and encouraged that type of atmosphere in the first place, and thats Pete.


The Bennett thread contains all the blame for Bennett. I know there was more than one thread on Baldwin and Lynch. Cable and Bevell have been dealt with repeatedly.

Sherman is fresh, thus he's the focus. The dysfunctional nature of the team is permitted by PC for allowing these all to be themselves. What he had hoped, and let too long, was that they would become not just the aggressors, but the leaders.

That hasn't really happened

I love the 2013-15 version of these players. I love what Sherman, Bennett, Lynch and Baldwin have evolved into off the field (even I dont always agree with it).

But the 2018 versions of some of these players have become far too divisive and distracting to help the team. What I would have hoped for (naively I suppose) was that they were grateful for the chances they got while here.
 
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Seymour":2xrvbw7d said:
SoulfishHawk":2xrvbw7d said:
I stuck of for Sherm for years, his act just got old. It's clearly about him only at this point.

Sherman is his own worst enemy. All that crap about "you never played the game at this level so you know nothing" is the biggest bunch of pure crap ever spouted. For being "so smart", he sure said some stupid things. Anyone can learn from anyone else, no matter the experience. A fresh set of eyes from a different perspective that is not muddled with emotion of being "in the problem", is often worth listening too.

Sure they can be way off also, but that doesn't mean you just slam the door to any opinion because "you haven't done that" before.

Why go to school and learn from a teacher or a text book? Did that teacher fight the war? Did that teacher invent electricity??....ect ect. :pukeface:

Again what you're describing Seymour ... is yet another classic Narcissist tactic. Narcissists will often minimize the opinions and experience of others ... and pump themselves up. In general (though they may LOOK like they do) Narcissists DO NOT have true empathy for others. They don't really put themselves in the place of other people ... or see how they themselves could possibly ever be wrong. They are the Arthur Fonzerelli's of the world who can never admit they are "Wr ... wr ... wr." [just too threatening to ever admit that].

They are "THE" experts in everything. Let me teach you because I know everything (look at me). Yep.
 
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SoulfishHawk":2byj032x said:
Well, nobody knows more than Sherm, just ask him, he'll tell you. :lol:

Precisely what I'm saying. As I said, don't take my word for it -- take his. He is about as textbook a case of Narcissism IMO as it gets.
 

Seymour

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Hawkscanner":3yc2yw4a said:
Seymour":3yc2yw4a said:
SoulfishHawk":3yc2yw4a said:
I stuck of for Sherm for years, his act just got old. It's clearly about him only at this point.

Sherman is his own worst enemy. All that crap about "you never played the game at this level so you know nothing" is the biggest bunch of pure crap ever spouted. For being "so smart", he sure said some stupid things. Anyone can learn from anyone else, no matter the experience. A fresh set of eyes from a different perspective that is not muddled with emotion of being "in the problem", is often worth listening too.

Sure they can be way off also, but that doesn't mean you just slam the door to any opinion because "you haven't done that" before.

Why go to school and learn from a teacher or a text book? Did that teacher fight the war? Did that teacher invent electricity??....ect ect. :pukeface:

Again what you're describing Seymour ... is yet another classic Narcissist tactic. Narcissists will often minimize the opinions and experience of others ... and pump themselves up. In general (though they may LOOK like they do) Narcissists DO NOT have true empathy for others. They don't really put themselves in the place of other people ... or see how they themselves could possibly ever be wrong. They are the Arthur Fonzerelli's of the world who can never admit they are "Wr ... wr ... wr." [just too threatening to ever admit that].

They are "THE" experts in everything. Let me teach you because I know everything (look at me). Yep.

I'm no expert on narcism, but I am pretty good at reading people and also learning from my mistakes as well as learning from others mistakes before I have to make them myself. If that is indeed a classic trait, then you have my vote.
 

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Sgt. Largent":bgtnpcjf said:
As opposed to what he's been doing the past 3-4 years, babysit and do damage control with players who no longer wanted to hear his "Kumbaya."

The natural tendency of human behavior is to become cynical over time. This is what has happened to the veterans
of our team. Hence, we see the Hawks starting over once again.
 

mrt144

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Bigpumpkin":1z17iekz said:
Sgt. Largent":1z17iekz said:
As opposed to what he's been doing the past 3-4 years, babysit and do damage control with players who no longer wanted to hear his "Kumbaya."

The natural tendency of human behavior is to become cynical over time. This is what has happened to the veterans
of our team. Hence, we see the Hawks starting over once again.

I don't know if it's natural to be cynical over time - unless I'm somehow defying human nature. What I will say is that it is grating to have someone not actualize the turmoil happening right in front of their faces that can be plainly seen by everyone involved. Relentless positivity is hollow without strong accountability and inward criticism.
 

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If I may....I do think narcissists are empathetic for only one purpose. They need others to admire them and have someone to berate as they go thru their actions. They have their friends that will support them as long as they are being taken care of....then they will be thrown under the proverbial bus. At some point in time, the narcissist will end up pushing too far and then will be spurned. I think that was what may have happened with mr Sherman. I do agree that it is just a matter of time...and then it will happen. I have dealt with a lot of these kinds of people.

Thanks for the identification of this.
 

rossob

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Seymour":36npds8u said:
That is no defense. There has NOT been another game lost from a pass getting picked at the one (ie...same disastrous results)

Where do you come up with that?

Just look at the Redskins game. They ran the play two times, got picked one time (but not at the 1)and almost another one.
 

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SoulfishHawk":2djpoju8 said:
He has been a distraction for a couple years now. Just because people like him, doesn't change the fact that he was angry, calling out coaches, players, refusing to admit he's ever wrong etc. It just flat out got old.
And it sounds like he got fleeced in that deal with Santa Clara.

Does it? Then why was no other FO willing to match the deal?
 
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