Bird’s Eye View (An Evaluation of The Team's Moves) ...

[sc85sis]

My two cents...

The Hawks had very little cap to work with this off-season and are now an aging team. Changes were inevitable. Sherman had a major injury that forced the team to consider whether he was worth the high price tag and cap hit. Additionally, he has had some very public blowups the last couple of years that indicate a *possible* (not definite, but possible) attitude issue towards the coaching staff/management.

Pete is very much a player's coach, and John appears to be a player's GM. They try to work with their guys, respect them, let them be themselves and treat them well. But they also know that this is a business, and they will have their own tipping point in terms of how much leeway they'll give any one player. They also likely address things in private in ways we aren't always privy to on the public side.

Put all that together, and I'm not surprised Sherm is gone. The team needs the cap space and they must get younger. Those are primary. *If* Sherm also was becoming a problem attitude-wise, that just made the decision easier. Either way, he's gone. Done deal.

And so we move on.

 

[LickMyNuts]

Sherman came from Compton and went to Stanford. He was lucky to get drafted into Pete’s defense but he is above your backyard phsyc evaluation. He was brilliant as a defensive back.

I doubt he recaptures the magic he had in Seattle but I wish him the best. The 49ers are trying a little too hard to emulate the Seahawks.

 

[chris98251]

Sherman came from Compton and went to Stanford. He was lucky to get drafted into Pete’s defense but he is above your backyard phsyc evaluation. He was brilliant as a defensive back.

I doubt he recaptures the magic he had in Seattle but I wish him the best. The 49ers are trying a little too hard to emulate the Seahawks.

Well the Jags and Falcons are doing also and I expect the Chargers now as well, system works on defense.

 

[AgentDib]

Sherman came from Compton and went to Stanford.

Not throwing stones here but that doesn't provide certainty of anything. Sherman went to Stanford on an athletic scholarship and received a communications degree. It's a shame people only bring it up along with a negative association (for somebody from Compton, for a football player...), but there are plenty of bright people in the business of the NFL and Sherman isn't some misunderstood genius.

Even if he was, there are plenty of people who are brilliant in some areas and completely daft in others. Myron Rolle was a Rhodes Scholar and went on post-NFL to a neurosurgery residency at Harvard, and if he acted as his own agent and signed a deal where he incurred all of the risk it would still be a dumb move.

 

[adeltaY]

Sherman came from Compton and went to Stanford. He was lucky to get drafted into Pete’s defense but he is above your backyard phsyc evaluation. He was brilliant as a defensive back.

I doubt he recaptures the magic he had in Seattle but I wish him the best. The 49ers are trying a little too hard to emulate the Seahawks.

Well the Jags and Falcons are doing also and I expect the Chargers now as well, system works on defense.

Do the Jags really run that similar of a system any more? I know Todd Wash comes from a seahawks background, as did Gus obviously. Seemed like they were running a good deal of Cover 4 this year.

 

[chris98251]

Sherman came from Compton and went to Stanford. He was lucky to get drafted into Pete’s defense but he is above your backyard phsyc evaluation. He was brilliant as a defensive back.

I doubt he recaptures the magic he had in Seattle but I wish him the best. The 49ers are trying a little too hard to emulate the Seahawks.

Well the Jags and Falcons are doing also and I expect the Chargers now as well, system works on defense.

Do the Jags really run that similar of a system any more? I know Todd Wash comes from a seahawks background, as did Gus obviously. Seemed like they were running a good deal of Cover 4 this year.

The players and the system are moving parts, speed, good tackling and adapting to the players strengths not forcing the player into a set system, they don't have a Earl so they adjust the scheme and coverage to what they have, Falcons do the same thing. That's the system, it will look a bit different depending on personnel.

They cover for a weakness with another players strength. Build up the weakness and make it something that doesn't have to be covered, it's a moving part.

 

[DomeHawk]

LOL some of you guys, I bet all your ex wives hate you if your treating players that were hero's a year ago like this and have moved on. Sherman, Bennett, even guys that have held out in Kam and maybe Earl, hope you all treated the Ex better when she crossed her legs.

This makes no sense and is a terrible analogy. Sherman was no hero a year ago. Neither was Bennett.

Also.. you have no idea if anyone is married/divorced/etc.

LOL I guess?

I'm not sure which is funnier, chris98251 being the king of terrible analogies, or you being the king of stating the obvious by acknowledging as much ad infinitum. :sarcasm_on: :sarcasm_off:

Having said that, it probably depends on how the ex treated ME after she crossed her legs.

 

[ducks41468]

I still think a large part of these moves (both players and coaches) have to do with Pete consolidating power in the organization toward the end of his tenure. It's inevitable in any organization, in sports and in the corporate world, you hire a bright young employee and as he gets more comfortable and starts earning accolades he gets more vocal and challenges the power structure.

Management response can either be to apply the Steve Jobs approach ("hire smart people so they can tell us what to do") or take the other approach and fire the dissenters, and start hiring from the local community college instead of the top engineering schools (which is precisely what happened at a previous place I worked at, and the company went downhill afterward). Seems like Pete is taking the latter approach, and opting for a step down in talent in exchange for obedience.

 

[olyfan63]

... and I'm just telling you guys what I see -- classic textbook Narcissism.

Just go do a search for something like "Common Tactics of Narcissists." See how many you can readily identify Richard Sherman having done in the past ... and those he is doing now. I've seen many Narcissists over the years in my work as a counselor and let me tell you -- these guys are the best of the best manipulators out there. They are generally highly intelligent, very calculating, very engaging, very entertaining, charismatic, likeable people -- on the surface. Give it time though with these folks ... and you'll start to see through the veil.

Again, I'll throw that challenge out there for those who are interested. Do some research on common tactics of Narcissists (or common manipulation tactics of narcissists). Then, go back over Richard Sherman's history. Look at specific incidences and comments that he's made over the years. See how many tactics you can identify.

Narcissists are best of the best manipulators out there that there are. Bar none. They are amazing in their ability to cause division and pit people against one another. Once you really grasp what they are doing … it can be quite stunning to behold.

People have been talking about division in the locker room. There are clubhouse cancers (people have been saying). I would agree with you wholeheartedly and I fully believe Richard Sherman was one of those. You see, Full Blown Narcissists (as long as things are going THEIR WAY) … will be your best buddy. It’s when you’re the man in charge … and they start to disagree with you … that things will start to go awry. They are amazing in their ability to cause issues in a group. They are generally highly intelligent and manipulative to a stunning degree. They are really good at pitting people against one another and stirring up trouble.

Everything you are saying is spot on except the bolded part.
IMO Borderlines more than give Narcissists a run for their money as manipulators.

I wrote extensive posts here about how Percy Harvin's behavior and history checked all the boxes for Borderline Personality Disorder. IMO Borderlines have a manipulation playbook that is every bit as complex and effective as the Narcissist's. My ex-wife's divorce attorney was a Narcissist. I was once engaged to a Borderline (she hid it from me well) and was lucky to escape the relationship without major loss of life, liberty, and property. It could almost be fair to make the argument that the Borderline's manipulative "gifts" really just come from the frequent comorbidity of NPD traits in many Borderlines. These people have "playbooks" and they run the same plays over and over again on unsuspecting people.

All that said, Narcissists can be charismatic and inspiring, when things are going their way. And, they often do put in the work, to become excellent in their field, as Richard Sherman did. It was a privilege to see him play the left corner spot for the 'Hawk for all those years.

Thank you for the education and analysis.

 

[Popeyejones]

I’m a therapist by trade, so I'll share with you guys my perspective from the clinician's chair.

What type of therapist are you and which board certifying body does it fall under? Are you a certified MFT? LMHC? LCSW? A Psy.D? Something else?

I ask because you're capitalizing "Full Blown Narcissist" as if it's some type of diagnosis, and anyone who has even spent passing time in the DSM V would be talking about NPD, which you're not. That person would also be talking about the display of NPD traits (which you're not) -- particularly if they're theorizing from a distance and haven't spent any clinical time with the subject, let alone conducted a formal NPI, which you obviously haven't.

I also struggle to understand how you're using your clinical expertise to conclude that it's within the realm of reason to give a "Full Blown Narcissist" a second contract but not a third contract.

If it's not obvious, I think your post would be more convincing if you simply wrote "I think the Seahawks had to cut Sherman not because he's too old, too injured, or too expensive, but simply because he's too much of a jerk." A lot of people have claimed that since he was cut.

Unconvincingly pathologizing him from a distance brings much more suspicion onto you than it does onto him, IMO.

 

[Uncle Si]

I dont know what forum it is.. but this isn't the one for this stuff.

Move it along, folks.

 

[Popeyejones]

[/deleted]

(see post above this one)

 

[olyfan63]

The conditions of NPD and BPD at a *diagnosable* level are estimated by many researchers as being 5% or more of the population. From my personal experience, there are also numerous more individuals who have many of the *traits* of these conditions but may not be at a formal diagnosis level, and in any case, these people would resist to the death being put in any situations where they could be *formally* diagnosed.

For the sake of discussion, let's just say that the percentage of the population with rather apparent NPD and/or BPD traits is 10%, and that NFL-rostered players are representative of that number. NPD seems to be more prevalent in males than BPD, so let's say for discussion, the split is 70-30 in males. Thus, out of the 53-man roster, there would be 3 or 4 players with high NPD traits, and 1-2 players with high BPD traits. The other variable, IMO, is the degree of anti-social behavior characteristics (pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others) or, what might be called comorbid sociopathy. Those NPDs with a high degree of sociopathy are quite toxic to be around, even dangerous.

Pete and John, I believe, got an *expensive* education with Percy Harvin, whose behavior and history, I believe, checks many boxes for BPD as well as the anti-social behaviors part. For example, in college, Harvin grabbed one of the assistant coaches by the neck and threw him to the ground. There is also the story about Harvin punching Golden Tate in the face the night before Super Bowl 48. On the NPD+antisocial side, Vince Young, former QB of the Tennessee Titans, I believe checks a *lot* of those boxes, and this knowledge became common around the league, which is why no NFL teams were interested in employing a healthy Vince Young still in his 20's with all his athletic prowess still intact.

The point is that these NPD, BPD, and antisocial behaviors and tendencies are nearly always present among the 53 players of an NFL roster. Pete and John have to factor in these issues in making player decisons.

While Richard Sherman certainly showed many of the NPD types of traits over the years, it would be reasonable to argue that his overall value to the team far exceeded any damage and division these traits may have caused--when Sherman was playing at an *elite* shutdown corner level. I can't really comment on the antisocial aspects relative to Sherman; there are signs, but nowhere near the ones evident with Percy Harvin.

Now that a declining Sherman is also injured, that changes the calculation for Pete and John quite a bit. A declining Sherman also changes Sherman. A declining Narcissist would have major issues with a diminished role and with taking a pay cut, and could just that easily flip from being an asset to the team to being a vociferous, attention-seeking cancer within the team.

While these types of psychological concerns can be a bit squishy, they manifest on a team in a very real and disruptive way, such that NFL coaches and GMs, and in particular, Pete and John, now have, and use, systems for evaluating these traits that they factor into player decisions. Percy Harvin really blindsided a naive Pete, who initially saw a profile of a salvageable elite talent, but instead got an education. I expect increasing numbers of NFL teams are now likewise looking for and factoring in these concerns in player decisions.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

It's pretty apparent from this week's moves that Pete and John are going back to the "value vesatile athlete" formula of re-building their defense.

Thus the #1 tender on Jordan and McDougal and Mingo signings. All athletic, versatile and don't break the bank.

Which I'm happy with btw, I trust Pete on the defensive side of the ball, he's fantastic at finding the right fits for what he wants on defense...........................on the offensive side? Errr, not so much.

 

[Hawkscanner]

This is the last comment that I’m going to make in this thread. Then as far as my part is concerned, I’m done as far as this subject is concerned.

First of all, let me state right up front that people are quite welcome to have any flawed views of me that they’d like to hold. It’s not only exhausting, but it’s also quite pointless to try go shooting down every thinking error out there possible. I’m not in control of anyone’s views of me … nor do I ever want to be. I’m perfectly happy and content putting in my .02 … and letting others decide how much stock they’d like to put in it.

As far as my credentials are concerned, I’m an LMHC and am a part of the NBCC. I’ve been in this field for a number of years, so am quite familiar with the DSM-V (the DSM-IV was much better IMO) and NPD. I’ve had a number of clients over the years who have had this issue … had “traits” of NPD ... and individuals whose lives have been touched by those with it. So, yes, to put it briefly -- I am a mental health therapist. I worked in a number of different inpatient and outpatient settings throughout the years … and now have my own private practice.

As far as this forum is concerned (and my own evaluations of any particular player’s mindset and/or any possible mental health profile) I would say that I’m not doing anything much differently than guys like bigskydoc or pmedic920 who offer their .02 on players and their possible medical issues/concerns. Mental health just so happens to be something that I know a thing or two about … but I’m happy to defer to others with greater wisdom than mine when it comes to particular issues.

I’m not going to ever see Richard Sherman in my office as a client (nor could I ever tell anyone about that were that ever to happen) … so yes, my opinion is based solely upon everything he’s said and done that’s part of public record. Based upon that, he certainly displays a lot of “traits of NPD.” Absolutely. Again, I will state that though I’m just voicing this now, this is an opinion that I’ve had for years.

And though I’ve focused on Sherman, I will also say -- that’s true of a lot of professional athletes. I’d say Marshawn Lynch definitely displayed traits of NPD. Percy Harvin -- most definitely. Dez Bryant -- yep. Terrell Owens -- yep. Michael Jordan? I most definitely agree … and I’d say that could perhaps be a big reason why he’s had issues in his post-NBA player career. Dennis Rodman though was an even bigger textbook example IMO.

I also definitely agree in saying that people with Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) can be quite challenging to deal with. I’ve had a number of people I’ve known through the years with BPD … and who’ve been touched by that as well. The constant push and pull in those relationships can get incredibly exhausting. A flaming borderline can make one’s life a living hell. Don’t piss those folks off. You can be an angel in their eyes one minute … and the worst demon of hell the next. Hell hath no fury, let me tell ya.

And it can be a whole lot of fun when you get people who have BOTH NPD … and BPD. I've both seen and experienced that before too. Ooof.

Bottom Line Point being … that once players who have apparent issues like these … are no longer elite in the eyes of the team … once the negatives start to outweigh the positives in the eyes of the team … then it’s time to move on. Close that chapter and open up the next one. I know that this has been a painful offseason for many. I would say that there is definitely some pain and sadness for me personally as well. But, I for one remain optimistic and am excited to see what the next chapter of Seahawks football holds in store for us.

Alright. I've said what I came to say. Others can make whatever follow-up comments they'd like, but I'm done as far as this subject is concerned If anyone would like to contact me for some reason, feel free to shoot me a PM. [/Thread]

 

[Northwest Seahawk]

Sherman was instrumental in getting us to the SuperBowl and winning it. I don't begrudge his opinion that the coaching staff probably cost us a SuperBowl victory and on the very short list of teams to win back to back in the modern era. He was a great Seahawk and I wish him nothing but success in SF.

 

[Northwest Seahawk]

It's pretty apparent from this week's moves that Pete and John are going back to the "value vesatile athlete" formula of re-building their defense.

Thus the #1 tender on Jordan and McDougal and Mingo signings. All athletic, versatile and don't break the bank.

Which I'm happy with btw, I trust Pete on the defensive side of the ball, he's fantastic at finding the right fits for what he wants on defense...........................on the offensive side? Errr, not so much.

My thoughts as well i like all three players and versatile athletic and physical is a good formula . I think we'll be fine defensively.

 

[olyfan63]

This is the last comment that I’m going to make in this thread. Then as far as my part is concerned, I’m done as far as this subject is concerned.
--snip--
Alright. I've said what I came to say. Others can make whatever follow-up comments they'd like, but I'm done as far as this subject is concerned If anyone would like to contact me for some reason, feel free to shoot me a PM. [/Thread]

Thank you for your contributions to the thread. I enjoyed them and found them relevant and thought-provoking. Your list of other, non-Seahawk athletes who show BPD traits was interesting... most of them I had pegged as NPDs.

I do agree that it is possible and reasonable to identify traits on public display, or a person's history that is public record, and observe that there is a pattern of behavior that aligns with diagnoses such as NPD, BPD, HPD, plus antisocial traits. While there is a common core of traits and behaviors, there are are also major differences between such individuals. For example, there are very smart ones, and very dumb ones. It's almost amusing watching the dumb ones clumsily attempt to run one of the plays from their standard playbook. (like the ex-husband's new wife thinking she'd have success trying to turn her ex's former mother-in-law against her own daughter--laughable). However, when the truly clever ones run plays from the BPD/NPD/Sociopath playbook--watch your back, lest you wind up wrongly in jail or even dead.

Whatever Richard Sherman is or isn't, he is very smart, as well as hard-working. It was also a joy to see Sherman take on the NFL in the alleged PEDs suspension (he appealed) and win. May Sherman have another couple mediocre declining years in the NFL with the 49ers, while they use massive amounts of their salary cap on him.

 

[Tusc2000]

I'm not a therapist so I won't join in the is he or isn't he a Narcissist debate. But I will say most observers agree Sherman negotiated a terrible deal for himself with the 49ers. Not using an agent is a sign that someone thinks they know more than they really do -- as well as expressing a very public desire to stick it to their former team immediately, which may or may not be a factor in defining narcissism, but it does define a foolish and impulsive person.

 

[Hawkscanner]

Thank you for your contributions to the thread. I enjoyed them and found them relevant and thought-provoking. Your list of other, non-Seahawk athletes who show BPD traits was interesting... most of them I had pegged as NPDs.

Ooops! Got ahead of myself. I meant NPD, not BPD. LOL. Sorry about that. You were right. Fixed.

Very last thing that I'd add here is that you're right Tusc2000 -- Sherman's desire to represent himself and his scathing underhanded backbiting "vengeful" comments are exactly the kind of stuff you'd expect to see. I found this report that John Schneider apparently actually helped Sheman negotiate his deal with the 49ers to be particularly amusing. I'll bet Schneider DID help. LOL!
https://www.ninersnation.com/2018/3...rd-sherman-rumors-contract-seahawks-negotiate

Alright. Now I'm done. People can PM me from here on out on this subject if they're interested in talking with me about it.