Woolen needs to be benched...

[Bear-Hawk]

You can reject PFF scoring if you like but your method is not the only way to judge performance. Of course there are stats built into these PFF scores so to assume they aren't is misguided. YAC wouldn't be a stat used to evaluate CBs. Things like PBUs, INTs, tackles, sacks, etc. are absolutely part of those scores and then some. What PFF and your stats only method don't account for are things like leadership and attitude, which I would argue are almost as important.

We are only talking here about which guy is better in pass defense, not who is the better overall player. I didn’t say PFF REC % is the ONLY stat for this purpose. I said it is the best. It is.

Riq is graded 54% which is excellent, and Spoon is graded 71%, which is poor. Yet they score about the same on “coverage” stat. Why? What’s the difference between a -1 and a -2 coverage score on a play? I assume if you allow the reception and then miss the tackle you get a lower score than if you immediately tackle the guy to prevent the first down. That’s how YAC allowed might explain their different grades on REC% vs. “coverage” scores….but PFF is somewhat vague about what they include in “coverage” beyond REC%.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

It's not even close. Spoon is a much better player.

 

[Bear-Hawk]

It's not even close. Spoon is a much better player.

That’s not what we are talking about here. Tackling is very important part of the job. No debate there. We are just talking about pass defense, and they are not even close on REC%.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Agree to disagree. I also don't like how Woolen seemingly looks lazy on a lot of plays.

 

[Rat]

Yeah, I've been under the impression that Woolen is a little better than Spoon in coverage.

I'm guessing though, that if we get burnt on a last second pass to lose a critical game, "Witherspoon" won't be the name we're seeing on the back of the jersey we're looking at.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Exactly. I'm not claiming that Woolen isn't good in coverage, he absolutely is. But am I the only one who sees a guy who looks lazy at times and/or like he doesn't have a passion for football? Maybe I'm reading way too much into it. But the difference in passion between him and spoon is massive.
This is the same Woolen who didn't do crap in the Giants game, then he does the throat slash when he finally makes a play. 2 plays later, gets owned on a TD.

 

[Bear-Hawk]

Agree to disagree. I also don't like how Woolen seemingly looks lazy on a lot of plays.

Again, we are just talking about pass defense.

We all like to see guys hustle the whole play to the whistle.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Yeah, I've been under the impression that Woolen is a little better than Spoon in coverage.

I'm guessing though, that if we get burnt on a last second pass to lose a critical game, "Witherspoon" won't be the name we're seeing on the back of the jersey we're looking at.

Honestly, I've seen Woolen out of position more than Spoon, but Woolen also is quite possibly one of the most athletic corners in the game. I think he leans on this aspect of his game WAY too much. The dude is 6'4 and runs a 4.26 40, all of his measurables make him sound like a freaking superhero. I've seen him get burnt bad and make a silly recovery because of his speed. I suspect that he relies on this aspect of his game way too much. He can simply get away with things that most people can't.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Good points ^
If he gets burnt, that closing speed saves him. It's actually pretty impressive.

 

[SeaWolv]

We are only talking here about which guy is better in pass defense, not who is the better overall player. I didn’t say PFF REC % is the ONLY stat for this purpose. I said it is the best. It is.

Riq is graded 54% which is excellent, and Spoon is graded 71%, which is poor. Yet they score about the same on “coverage” stat. Why? What’s the difference between a -1 and a -2 coverage score on a play? I assume if you allow the reception and then miss the tackle you get a lower score than if you immediately tackle the guy to prevent the first down. That’s how YAC allowed might explain their different grades on REC% vs. “coverage” scores….but PFF is somewhat vague about what they include in “coverage” beyond REC%.

That may be what you were talking about when you replied to my message but I was talking about overall. But if I was I would point out that PFF has Spoon at 65.1 on coverage and Riq at 64.9 so they would seem to disagree with your assessment.

 

[Appyhawk]

If I were playing CB I would prioritize taking full advantage of all legal contact at LOS. That is how you destroy timing and route. Riq started out that way as a rook but got burned by so many penalties he responded by giving way too much cushion, which is my biggest gripe as it insures catches that move the chains. It also gives the receiver too much momentum while the CB has to turn and hit the gas trying to catch up. His height is a disadvantage at LOS. That is probably why he favors cushion but it is too often a costly decision.
Overall I wouldn't trade Riq for very many of other CBs around the league.

 

[hawks85]

Looked like Spoon was yelling at him for the 3rd down play. I would like to think his teammates are going to set him straight and not let him get away with that

They better do something because Woolen gave up that 3rd and very long and almost cost us the game. If we did lose that game Coach Mike would probably release him (depending on his contact situation) or bench him.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

It wasn't by accident that spoon and love were laying into him. He needs more care out there. If that makes sense.

 

[Bear-Hawk]

That may be what you were talking about when you replied to my message but I was talking about overall. But if I was I would point out that PFF has Spoon at 65.1 on coverage and Riq at 64.9 so they would seem to disagree with your assessment.

This gets back to what you consider the better indicator. The opponents complete 71% of their passes against Spoon and only 54% against Riq. That is the best statistic for pass defense.

They have a bunch of other stuff loaded into their “coverage” stat. It might be YAC allowed. If so, that’s about tackling— where Spoon has advantage. So when you combine the numbers and average all their minus scores, you get score 65 for both, but that stat conflates pass defense (REC%) with tackling the guy after you allowed the catch. They both have 2 interference calls but Spoon allowed more yards from PI.

 

[cymatica]

This gets back to what you consider the better indicator. The opponents complete 71% of their passes against Spoon and only 54% against Riq. That is the best statistic for pass defense.

They have a bunch of other stuff loaded into their “coverage” stat. It might be YAC allowed. If so, that’s about tackling— where Spoon has advantage. So when you combine the numbers and average all their minus scores, you get score 65 for both, but that stat conflates pass defense (REC%) with tackling the guy after you allowed the catch. They both have 2 interference calls but Spoon allowed more yards from PI.

I thought the slot corner was regarded as one of the tougher positions. I'm curious what the yards per reception are. I just wonder if slot should be held to the same standard as outside corner

 

[KinesProf]

Davante Adams and Garrett Wilson had 10 total catches between the two of them on 20 targets. I'm not benching any of the CBs.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Calling a blitz on the final play by the Jets was brilliant.

 

[SeaWolv]

This gets back to what you consider the better indicator. The opponents complete 71% of their passes against Spoon and only 54% against Riq. That is the best statistic for pass defense.

They have a bunch of other stuff loaded into their “coverage” stat. It might be YAC allowed. If so, that’s about tackling— where Spoon has advantage. So when you combine the numbers and average all their minus scores, you get score 65 for both, but that stat conflates pass defense (REC%) with tackling the guy after you allowed the catch. They both have 2 interference calls but Spoon allowed more yards from PI.

Per the PFF data, Spoon is used in the pass rush way more than Woolen. They both tackle about the same (both are better tacklers than Sauce Gardner!). Woolen has a lower REC% and fewer yards surrendered but part of that can be attributed to playing fewer games than Spoon and also how they're used (i.e. CB or NB). When considering all this it makes it harder to compare the two as they aren't used the same way. Which brings me back to PFF instead of using an overly simplistic method of only looking at REC%.

 

[bileever]

This over-the-top criticism of Woolen is unwarranted. Riq had a pretty good game, from what I saw.

On that 3rd and 25 play, Woolen was covering Garrett Wilson who ran a route 30 yards downfield. It was Jenkins who was closest to Isaiah Davis.

Sanchez said during the broadcast that Love was yelling at Woolen, but it's unclear who Love was yelling at or whether he had grounds to yell at Woolen. He might have just been frustrated by the play, as you would expect.

I looked at the all-22 on that play, and I'm not sure Woolen could have impacted the play very much. By the time Woolen turned around, he was still 30 yards away from Davis.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Hmmmm.....