Seattle Sounders 2015 Season Thread

[Sgt. Largent]

Well ideally the 3 CBs can handle interior passes and through balls, and your wingbacks can track back on the far side to establish a back 4 when the wide CBs shift over. the role of the holding mids is more to contain counters and disrupt possession in front of the CBs that may force them to step away from their lines. .

But one of the basic premises and advantages of a 3-5-2 is to have your mids clog the middle and prevent those through passes, so your three CB's don't have to deal with being outnumbered in the box.

IMO Width is the key to taking advantage of what both Clint and Oba bring to the forward position, unfortunately we don't have a lot of speed or width.........especially with Yedlin gone who helped stretch the D.

I hate to say it, but with our old ass backline, and old ass mids, Clint and Oba are going to have frustrating years. Because teams are just going to play narrow and force us to beat them outside. How? Neagle? Pappa? I don't see it.

We need quick wingers with pace, like Zakuani and/or Flacco circa 2009.

 

[Uncle Si]

Well ideally the 3 CBs can handle interior passes and through balls, and your wingbacks can track back on the far side to establish a back 4 when the wide CBs shift over. the role of the holding mids is more to contain counters and disrupt possession in front of the CBs that may force them to step away from their lines. .

But one of the basic premises and advantages of a 3-5-2 is to have your mids clog the middle and prevent those through passes, so your three CB's don't have to deal with being outnumbered in the box.

IMO Width is the key to taking advantage of what both Clint and Oba bring to the forward position, unfortunately we don't have a lot of speed or width.........especially with Yedlin gone who helped stretch the D.

I hate to say it, but with our old ass backline, and old ass mids, Clint and Oba are going to have frustrating years. Because teams are just going to play narrow and force us to beat them outside. How? Neagle? Pappa? I don't see it.

We need quick wingers with pace, like Zakuani and/or Flacco circa 2009.

Agreed on the width, and thats why you play the 352 or 433. The 352, however, (same with 343) is less about defending by clogging and more about defending through possession. In reality, your 3 backs are never outnumbered unless your wingbacks arent getting back to balance counters. Many 352 teams also press high (Juventus) to win the ball further up the field or push the ball wide where the CBs can balance themselves

I do feel that if the Sounders attack is going anywhere this season it requires pace supporting the two (or one) attacker. I'd like to see a 4411 with Dempsey underneath the striker, but dont know enough about the lineup to suggest it would work. Still, that requires pacey wide play.

 

[razgriz737]

Sounders 2 @ UW tonight at 7:00. I'll be there myself.

 

[razgriz737]

I shit you not, I'm literally sitting right behind Hanauer and Lagerway right now.

 

[SeatownJay]

One week to go. Will there be games or will the players strike?

 

[Smurf]

Well ideally the 3 CBs can handle interior passes and through balls, and your wingbacks can track back on the far side to establish a back 4 when the wide CBs shift over. the role of the holding mids is more to contain counters and disrupt possession in front of the CBs that may force them to step away from their lines. .

But one of the basic premises and advantages of a 3-5-2 is to have your mids clog the middle and prevent those through passes, so your three CB's don't have to deal with being outnumbered in the box.

IMO Width is the key to taking advantage of what both Clint and Oba bring to the forward position, unfortunately we don't have a lot of speed or width.........especially with Yedlin gone who helped stretch the D.

I hate to say it, but with our old ass backline, and old ass mids, Clint and Oba are going to have frustrating years. Because teams are just going to play narrow and force us to beat them outside. How? Neagle? Pappa? I don't see it.

We need quick wingers with pace, like Zakuani and/or Flacco circa 2009.

Agreed on the width, and thats why you play the 352 or 433. The 352, however, (same with 343) is less about defending by clogging and more about defending through possession. In reality, your 3 backs are never outnumbered unless your wingbacks arent getting back to balance counters. Many 352 teams also press high (Juventus) to win the ball further up the field or push the ball wide where the CBs can balance themselves

I do feel that if the Sounders attack is going anywhere this season it requires pace supporting the two (or one) attacker. I'd like to see a 4411 with Dempsey underneath the striker, but dont know enough about the lineup to suggest it would work. Still, that requires pacey wide play.

Pacey wide play most likely isn't going to happen. Our outside mid depth is very light in the pace department. Lamar Neagle has got a little quickness to him, but he's no Nyassi or Zakuani.

Pappa is the other starter and has less speed than Neagle.

Cooper and Barrett are routinely used out there and offer even less.

Parsemain has some good speed, but I doubt we see him out wide.

The only real player on our roster right now who could see time on the outside is Darwin Jones....and I just don't think he's ready for consistent minutes yet. It's very telling to me the # of preseason minutes he got. I think hes a quality player, just probably not a contributor this season.

I do expect to see some things from Kovar this season, but again, he's not a fast player.

Any pace along the wings is going to come from the outside backs (Correa, Mears, Remick). They have actively been looking for Pace on the wing all off season but are limiting their transfers due to the CBA issue. I'm hopeful we see some moves during the summer window to get some pace.

Our current squad is best set up in a formation that utilizes possession first, and counter attacking second. I expect to see lots of slower build up with some tight passing and then the occasional outlet ball to Oba, Clint and Lamar.

We don't have a lot of pace on the roster, and it doesn't make sense to play a style of football that needs it.


That said, we have I think another month or so to talk about how the team will play in their first match cause I don't forsee us starting the season on time. If we get a match in before Easter I'll be surprised.

 

[Uncle Si]

Our current squad is best set up in a formation that utilizes possession first, and counter attacking second. I expect to see lots of slower build up with some tight passing and then the occasional outlet ball to Oba, Clint and Lamar.

We don't have a lot of pace on the roster, and it doesn't make sense to play a style of football that needs it.

Possession means nothing if you dont have pace to exploit the space it creates. Think Bayern and Barcelona (Liverpool, Arsenal), versus Man United, Chelsea.

It sounds like the roster needs a reboot.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

It sounds like the roster needs a reboot.

I think hiring Lagerwey is a signal that a reboot is coming over the next couple of years.

Our roster got old in a hurry, can't continue to trot out Pineda, Pappa, Evans, Gonzo, Scott, add an old Mears to the already aged starting lineup..............and our best bench players are Barrett and Cooper? Not good.

The Sounders have always prided themselves in scouting young international talent and always having at least one or two exciting young up and coming players. Montero, Flaco, Ozzie, Yedlin........and I don't see ANY of that anymore. Which again, may have contributed to Lagerwey's hiring.

My worst fear is for my Sounders to become just another old MLS teams stocked full of over the hill vets sprinkled in with a couple DP's.

 

[Uncle Si]

You would hope the new residential academies and the S2 (and reserve legues) would help. But when NASL's own MN United seem to have more young talent than an MLS team, there are issues.

Sporting KC's youth system, on the contrary, is producing high level players at a fairly high rate (about 2-3 a "generation".. which is a 2 year age grouping). Its the most feasible way for MLS teams to remain competitive.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

You would hope the new residential academies and the S2 (and reserve legues) would help. But when NASL's own MN United seem to have more young talent than an MLS team, there are issues.

Sporting KC's youth system, on the contrary, is producing high level players at a fairly high rate (about 2-3 a "generation".. which is a 2 year age grouping). Its the most feasible way for MLS teams to remain competitive.

Again, exactly why Lagerwey was hired.

I give Hanauer a lot of credit for helping get a very successful Sounders franchise off the ground and continually at the top of MLS, but his strong suit was not developing, it was scouting.

If the MLS ever wants to take the next step, it's going to have to unify the way it develops our own youth talent. S2 is certainly a step in the right direction, but soccer development is still extremely splintered in the US.

 

[Uncle Si]

You would hope the new residential academies and the S2 (and reserve legues) would help. But when NASL's own MN United seem to have more young talent than an MLS team, there are issues.

Sporting KC's youth system, on the contrary, is producing high level players at a fairly high rate (about 2-3 a "generation".. which is a 2 year age grouping). Its the most feasible way for MLS teams to remain competitive.

Again, exactly why Lagerwey was hired.

I give Hanauer a lot of credit for helping get a very successful Sounders franchise off the ground and continually at the top of MLS, but his strong suit was not developing, it was scouting.

If the MLS ever wants to take the next step, it's going to have to unify the way it develops our own youth talent. S2 is certainly a step in the right direction, but soccer development is still extremely splintered in the US.

It is (pretty) unified. All of the MLS teams have developmental academies and reserve squads. Most have affiliates with local developmental academies and a handful have intricate relationships with European clubs.

the idea that development is splintered neglects the biggest issue the country has in identifying then developing its young players.... size. The US is massive compared to most nations that it competes with. But in terms of structure, there is alot in place. Sure, some of the tiers compete at times, but in general, a system is in place

think of a pyramid, from the bottom up:

From ages 6-17:
Local/Rec club
Traveling club
Developmental Academy (either MLS or large DA)
(USSF ODP program and Residential)

16+
DA
MLS Academy or Semi Pro Reserves
Reserve team/MLS Reserves
Lower Tier Professional
MLS or transfer to bigger league
(USSF National team)

 

[Sgt. Largent]

You left out schools and college Si, which is my point.

In successful soccer countries and regions, there's only one system, youth academies. You sign a kid, he's your responsibility to educate and develop until you and the parents see fit.

I coached my daughter's premier team for 8 years, and it was a constant battle between club, school, and other academies and clubs cherry picking players. There was no rhyme or reason as to how best to develop the child.

Add in the fact that most REALLY gifted kids are pulled in 2-3 other sport directions, and it all adds up to a very dysfunctional way to develop soccer in the US.

Btw, I don't necessarily disagree with the way it is. Personally I think it's healthy that our kids play multiple sports, and I always cringed when one of my girls would quit soccer at age 10 or 12 because her parents forced her to play some other sport all year around.............because of the almighty carrot dangled that we call a college scholarship.

 

[Uncle Si]

You left out schools and college Si, which is my point.

In successful soccer countries and regions, there's only one system, youth academies. You sign a kid, he's your responsibility to educate and develop until you and the parents see fit.

I coached my daughter's premier team for 8 years, and it was a constant battle between club, school, and other academies and clubs cherry picking players. There was no rhyme or reason as to how best to develop the child.

Add in the fact that most REALLY gifted kids are pulled in 2-3 other sport directions, and it all adds up to a very dysfunctional way to develop soccer in the US.

Btw, I don't necessarily disagree with the way it is. Personally I think it's healthy that our kids play multiple sports, and I always cringed when one of my girls would quit soccer at age 10 or 12 because her parents forced her to play some other sport all year around.............because of the almighty carrot dangled that we call a college scholarship.

Edited with warning: this is long and meandering.

Things are not as in disarray as they may been a few years ago. In fact, the structure seems to be settling in and developing rapidly at the same time. The system outlined though works towards developing the high end players. It is not much different than England's, for example. The truly gifted players are being mopped up and taken to the next level. The Developmental academies and schools are popping up at an alarming rate to be honest. Schools and colleges are not part of the "developmental" process. The rest of it exists to service the needs of all of us who didnt make it.

High school soccer lasts 10 weeks. College soccer has been by-passed by Academies/Reserves for all intents and purposes. Many kids will take the D1 route, but even the ones that do that are really good are gone in the MLS draft no later than their Sophomore year. While college teams can fill the rosters, the special players are no longer using colleges (for the most part)

The truly gifted kids are not playing multiple sports by the way. The multi sport, multi-tiered dilemma we have with soccer and other sports only impacts the rec and traveling programs. Kids at the DAs and MLS academies are not off to run track or play basketball.

There is no "right way" to develop players. The coaching has undergone major development just in the last decade, with national certifications a must if you want to train kids at any decent level. this has greatly impacted the level of coaching the kids are getting. Then its just a tiered system upwards. England is no different. Its not like the Academies are the only thing they have there. I mean think about Liverpool's academy. A good number of those players are not from Liverpool (or even England for that matter). Its not much different there (outside the money that the established academies have) except that their youth teams have more association with professional teams. But there are like 8 levels of professional soccer in a country the size of Minnesota. You would think the local pro team would have a youth set up.

My thought (as being a part of it) is that it will continue its lightning fast development around the professional/Residential academy and building of the Reserve league.

 

[SeatownJay]

I think one of the issues facing the development of young talent is parents pushing their kids towards, and the kids themselves being more interested in, sports with higher financial ceilings, especially with kids that possess the natural athletic ability to be a professional athlete. The median salary in MLS (and let's face it, the vast majority of Americans that go pro in soccer will play in MLS, relatively few will be good enough to go to Europe) is $91,827. The next lowest median salary in the five major North American sports leagues is the NFL at $770,000. That's a huge difference.

If parents are going to spend the time, effort, energy, and money necessary to groom their son to be a professional athlete, they're going to go for sports with the best chance of a big financial payoff.

edit: salary info found here - http://www.americansocceranalysis.com/h ... lssalaries

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Edited with warning: this is long and meandering.

Things are not as in disarray as they may been a few years ago. In fact, the structure seems to be settling in and developing rapidly at the same time. The system outlined though works towards developing the high end players. It is not much different than England's, for example. The truly gifted players are being mopped up and taken to the next level. The Developmental academies and schools are popping up at an alarming rate to be honest. Schools and colleges are not part of the "developmental" process. The rest of it exists to service the needs of all of us who didnt make it.

High school soccer lasts 10 weeks. College soccer has been by-passed by Academies/Reserves for all intents and purposes. Many kids will take the D1 route, but even the ones that do that are really good are gone in the MLS draft no later than their Sophomore year. While college teams can fill the rosters, the special players are no longer using colleges (for the most part)

The truly gifted kids are not playing multiple sports by the way. The multi sport, multi-tiered dilemma we have with soccer and other sports only impacts the rec and traveling programs. Kids at the DAs and MLS academies are not off to run track or play basketball.

There is no "right way" to develop players. The coaching has undergone major development just in the last decade, with national certifications a must if you want to train kids at any decent level. this has greatly impacted the level of coaching the kids are getting. Then its just a tiered system upwards. England is no different. Its not like the Academies are the only thing they have there. I mean think about Liverpool's academy. A good number of those players are not from Liverpool (or even England for that matter). Its not much different there (outside the money that the established academies have) except that their youth teams have more association with professional teams. But there are like 8 levels of professional soccer in a country the size of Minnesota. You would think the local pro team would have a youth set up.

My thought (as being a part of it) is that it will continue its lightning fast development around the professional/Residential academy and building of the Reserve league.

Not meandering, well stated.

When I said truly gifted players, I meant at a young age, 10-14.......and they're being pulled in different sport directions because of over zealous coaches and parents dreaming of titles and scholarships.

IMO not healthy for anybody.

 

[Uncle Si]

I think one of the issues facing the development of young talent is parents pushing their kids towards, and the kids themselves being more interested in, sports with higher financial ceilings, especially with kids that possess the natural athletic ability to be a professional athlete. The median salary in MLS (and let's face it, the vast majority of Americans that go pro in soccer will play in MLS, relatively few will be good enough to go to Europe) is $91,827. The next lowest median salary in the five major North American sports leagues is the NFL at $770,000. That's a huge difference.

If parents are going to spend the time, effort, energy, and money necessary to groom their son to be a professional athlete, they're going to go for sports with the best chance of a big financial payoff.

edit: salary info found here - http://www.americansocceranalysis.com/h ... lssalaries

While I don't disagree that their is a salary differential between the major sports, i would think it is rare that a naturally gifted athlete is making a decision of what sport to pursue at a young age based on what may make them the most money professionally. They may make a decision based on what avenue is easiest to a college scholarship. But still most kids gravitate towards what they like. And I imagine most difficult decisions are based primarily on that. Then it just comes down to which college is going to pay for their kids to play which sport. D1 soccer programs give away free school as much as any other sport (percentage of program size being considered here)

Its a bit later in life that truly gifted athletes make a decision between that D1 scholarship in football or the one in soccer, basketball, baseball, etc.

In truth, soccer (and then hockey in some areas followed by basketball prep schools) is set up quite well to both identify and then isolate its developing talent.

If you are a parent of a 13 year old, and the local high school football coach thinks you'll be good, but the LA Galaxy DA is willing to whisk you away to their training facility and residential program, I think the choice is more on the immediate gratification.

Soccer probably does lose out to the popularity of other sports in some regards. I just don't believe that the lack of development of soccer players in the US is impacted by its best athletes choosing other sports. What sport would Messi, Ronaldo, etc. have played if they grew up in the US?

The US' biggest and most fundamental issue is the actual size of the country. Great Britain has 64 million people living in a country the size of the state I live in. Spain has 47 million in a smaller area. Our academies right now must focus on the major city centers (and in that, you have to select the cities in which you think the sport is popular). Here is a quick map on how the DAs are set up

http://academy.demosphere.com/

That is ignoring an awful lot of territory/players/potential. But what can you do? I played college in Arizona. I know that population. One academy to service the 6th biggest city in the nation? And nothing for Las Vegas or Utah (3 in Denver, by the way. Colorado is not a strong soccer community, but there is major investment there).

You can see that soccer has had to pick its areas of concentration, in essence picking its sphere of influence and basically leaving the rest to traveling coaches (2nd tier from the bottom) to know they have found something special and direct it upwards.

Not efficient, and I believe the sheer size of our nation is the biggest contributing detriment.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

When you look through the tabs on that map they have nothing outside California for the entire Western US for 13-14 year olds (they lose Colorado, KCMO, and Washington State). Basically if you live beyond St. Louis you do have Minnesota and Texas to go to if you don't go to California or the Eastern Seaboard.

 

[Uncle Si]

When you look through the tabs on that map they have nothing outside California for the entire Western US for 13-14 year olds (they lose Colorado, KCMO, and Washington State).

Not sure you're looking at it right. Washington has two, Colorado has 3. Missouri and Kansas share Sporting KC and Scott Gallagher (major youth DAs). Edit--- Sorry Mizzou. You're right. Didn't notice the tabs. All of the clubs listed in the 14-18 DAs have 13-14 programs. They are not sanctioned Developmental Academies yet. So the kids are there, they just aren't playing as part of their age group yet. In 1-2 years, almost all of them will be sanctioned DAs and playing the others. Right now, most of them are just training and trying to set up the schedules (which again lends itself to the size issue. These DAs travel all those distances to play clubs in their sanctioned region. Its a bitch, trust me). The key tab is the 15-16 age.

But one club in Arizona? Nothing in Utah, Oregon, Las Vegas? (criminal, really, because the soccer population in these states is very large, just undeveloped/unorganized). The entire Southeast is left untouched.

Its a major issue in identifying the depth of talent that may be out there. And in that regards, soccer probably is losing its best athletes to football.

The other issue becomes the amount of DAs popping up in the same region. It is becoming highly competitive, and forcing the academies to abandon (or atleast marginally sacrifice) their prime philosophy of training and development for getting results. (Wins bring in talent).

The higher level academies in England don't even keep score until 17.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Its a major issue in identifying the depth of talent that may be out there. And in that regards, soccer probably is losing its best athletes to football.

...........and basketball, and baseball, and in some parts of the country hockey, etc.

It's not just money, it's cultural and geographical. We live in a very progressive area of the country where TONS of kids play soccer, both genders, and have for a long long time.

But that's not the case all over, in fact Clint Dempsey talks about growing up in Nacogdoches, Texas where he was teased and ranked on for loving soccer. Both Kobe and Lebron also talk about it, how their first love was soccer, but the pull of basketball was too great from their friends, community, family, coaches etc.

But I do think we've turned the corner, with the combo of the globalization of sports on TV and the internet where kids who love soccer can watch and follow all the soccer they want, and development system in just about every state to foster their soccer talent.

I truly believe guys like Yedlin are an example of this, 20 years ago someone would have talked Deandre into another sport, but he had the access to top level clubs and systems to foster his growth all the way through high school and into the MLS.

 

[Uncle Si]

Its a major issue in identifying the depth of talent that may be out there. And in that regards, soccer probably is losing its best athletes to football.

...........and basketball, and baseball, and in some parts of the country hockey, etc.

And here I disagree...alot. Soccer does not lose its potential stars to other sports. Not often atleast. While Kobe and Lebron may have been drawn to soccer at a young age, what professional soccer play that you know has the physical disposition of either? Or for that matter, what sport can you see a player of Messi's size being drawn to? Just because Lebron is 6'10 doesn't mean the ball at his feet is going to do anything. He may be fast, but i'd suggest a massive handful of modern footballers are much faster. We point to a football player like Adrian Peterson and his power and speed, and ignore that Cristiano Ronaldo, Gareth Bale, Raheem Sterling to name just a very slim few are exceptionally fast (Bale may be in the top 1% fastest in the world) and can do so with a ball at their feet. None of them are over 6 foot 1. For that matter, Ronaldo might be the best athlete in football. It's the same as asking "what if Lebron chose hockey?"

We place too much emphasis on the lure of other sports taking something away from soccer. And we do with the assumption that baseball, cricket, rugby, hockey are not massive sports in countries where soccer is developed and progressing. We are not the only country with athletes of all varieties. Thinking we can shoe horn them into soccer IF it wasnt for football or basketball is a bit naive.

The root of the issue is what to do with the kids who are soccer players. Not convincing others to stay with it. As you said (and I had laid out) the foundation exists and the structure is relatively constant. In my opinion, however, the DAs have centered themselves and congested areas. They have left the identification and early training of potentially top drawer players to club coaches. That's fine. But it just shows how much distance plays a factor in the system.

Almost every major soccer nation in the world is smaller than Minnesota in terms of land size. It makes things alot easier when a 45 minute train ride covers the area 20 clubs work in. 45 minutes here doesnt take me from my Academy to Shattuck. Not even half way. The next nearest in 7 hours East or South.