Ringer article on Seahawks Offense

[Rainger]

Fair enough I get were your coming from. Here is what I will tell you. I have played, coached and reffed for over 50 years. Yes I'm old. Lol

Well I am in my 71st year and a lot of the same. It is very troubling that you claim that your experience gives you such a knowledge and then have such a blind spot to what RW became and want to blame the whole world other than laying any blame on RW,s ego.

 

[Lagartixa]

Lagartixa,
I DO NOT hate Pete Carroll.

I hate what looks like Pete putting his staying in the chair over the success of the team.

I hate that he ran off our HOF QB, even if Wilson turned into an insufferable knob.

I do hate the way Pete likes to coach his football now though.

I don't respect Pete's coaching ability anymore. That isn't hate. And I REALLY do not like the nepotism and favoritism.

But Pete has accomplished a good of good things in this world and helped a lot of people, he delivered a SB win. It is impossible to HATE him.

He also could have squandered our HOF QB and he absolutely held this team back the last 5 years.

You can be pissed off at that without it being hate. You can even point out he is way too old to be worth anything as a football coach - without it being hate.
He isn't Ty Freaking Willingham, even though PeteBall is damn similar to TyBall.

I actually try to avoid using the word "hate" much of the time, but I slipped there. And even though I did, I wasn't thinking TwistedHusky hates Pete Carroll the man, but it could very easily look to somebody reading it like I was saying that.

The point I was trying to make is that TwistedHusky sees Pete Carroll as the Seahawks' main obstacle to success now and is angry ("pissed off" in Twisted's own words) about it.

I'll leave the previous comment as it was, but this comment is a retraction of me saying Twisted hates Pete Carroll.

 

[Lagartixa]

I don't respect Pete's coaching ability anymore. That isn't hate. And I REALLY do not like the nepotism and favoritism.

So let me ask: what do you think about Carroll's favoritism of Wilson? Is that something you dislike? Since writing can't convey intent like speaking can (via tone of voice), I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to "gotcha" you here. I sincerely want to know if Carroll's favoritism for Wilson is part of what you don't like about Carroll's coaching in recent years.

 

[scutterhawk]

FIFY


i'll look back fondly on the russell wilson era, and my russell wilson jersey still hangs in my closet. that being said, it was time to move on from russell. actually, if anything it was a couple of seasons overdue, and pete could have started this rebuild earlier. after marshawn retired, pete "gave him the keys" to the offense, and in the end russellball and $40m/year tied up in a rollout-qb just couldn't get the job done.

at his peak, russell wilson had become a top 5 qb in the nfl. but if that peak seemed short, it indeed was, because it was unsustainable. teams locked into the fact russell would avoid the middle of the field. seahawks started becoming predictable on passing downs going shotgun more often along with russell becoming terrible on 3rd down. teams started eliminating the sideline throws, and father time eliminated russell's running ability. sure, we can blame the offensive line which hasn't been good since the walter jones/hutchison days, i get it. but there's no excuse for holding onto the ball so long, especially when you know the line is bad. constantly seeing ghosts and running into defenders, russell took too many self-induced sacks. i'd say russell was at his best when he served as efficient game manager that could hit the occasional homerun as support to an elite run-1st offense. then going play-action off that run, quick passes, and designed rollouts that could get his athleticism on the edge (when teams hadn't adapted yet).



russell wilson's statistics are simply an outer facade that envelop the fact that he would never even get to another superbowl without a top 5 run game paired with a top 5 defense.

THIS ^^
Oh and you ain't the only chap with a Russell Wilson Jersey hanging in the closet.
All of Russ' attributes were on him, & all the Russ boogers were Pete's fault, I try not to fester on Pete too much, cuz I know that the devil made him do it.
As for y'all I don't "HATE" but I just CAN'T STAND PETE' folks out there, GO CONVINCE Jody to give YOU his job, and GUARANTEE her a way more successful showing.
It's kind of astounding that some of Y'all Pete "Can't Standers" ain't NFL Head Coaches.
Just about everybody & their brothers agree that Billy Belichick is one of the best all time Head Coaches in the League, but Head to Head, he & Pete Carroll have Coached wins against each other at about the SAME RATE, Yes? No?

 

[TwistedHusky]

Lagartixa,

The favoritism is almost the cost of doing business honestly. Same way Griffey got his chair. You get special treatment when you are rock star so long as you earn it.
Now, if you want to go into the coddling of Wilson since the LOB days and how it used to piss them off? Absolutely THAT was stupid. As was going all-in on Wilson when your HC only understands defense.

People here probably remember I was adamant that the best course of action was to trade Wilson to the Jets, and go all in on Lynch & LOB - then get a young QB (I mentioned Mahomes but I thought he would be a Wilson-lite not what he became).

The ship sailed through. Moving off from Wilson made complete sense when you had a Defensive-minded HC, who develops talent well, a great scouting group (Scott etc.), one of the best RBs in the league, and a defense lined with HOF players.

(There was also a bit of a Lynch vs Wilson faction in the locker room. And Wilson glommed onto Pete at the time, which probably led to Lynch leaving when that stupid trade decimated his line.)

The preferential treatment post-LOB made sense because we had hot garbage at defense and our QB was one of the few things winning games for us still. You do what you need to in order to keep the talent happy.

 

[Scout]

Jets before PC 8-8
With PC 6-10


Ne before PC 11-5
PC has a Head coach
10-6
9-7
8-8

So every HC job he had before Seattle was him taking a team to a worse record than they had the year before without him

Yeah, does not sound like he knows how to do what you said.


But believe what you want.

That is grossly oversimplified.

PC in both instances took over aging and flawed rosters with QBs heading in the wrong direction. PC only had one season with the Jets so it is hard for a coach to put their stamp on a team with one season. The season after PC left the Jets went 3-13 and then 1-15 with R. Kotite.

Boomer Esiason during PC lone season put up 17 TDs and 13 Ints which is very average. But then the season after PC, Boomer Esiason followed with another average performance of 16 TDs and 15 Ints. Obviously Boomer throwing 2 more Ints did not make the Jets win three less games a year later. The difference? The 1995 Jets put up 1279 yards on the ground while with PC in 1994 put up 1566 yards on the ground as a team. The year before PC arrived the Jets went 8-8 as you pointed out with another average performance by Boomer Esiason (16 TDs and 11 Ints). But that 1993 Jets squad put up 1880 yards on the ground.

That is how the Jets were able to go 8-8 with average play at QB before PC arrived. I have no doubt in my mind this is what PC would have continued if he had been given more time and to rebalance the roster to enhance a running attack.

Also, with NE Kraft admits a lot of what led to PC's firing was out of his control. Normally owners are not that candid and will shoulder the blame on the HC when things do not go right. But in PC case Kraft was sticking up for him even though he fired him!

Interesting enough PC had a winning record in all three seasons with NE when his team had at least 1400 yards total on the ground. It could be argued the lone season with the Jets was a fluke. PCs final season with NE you had Drew Bledsoe imploding and the team was missing star Pro Bowl RB Robert Edwards.

Edwards was drafted in the 1st round, 18th overall in 1998 and was sensational as a rookie. Edwards had big shoes to fill because he was replacing the legendary Curtis Martin.

BB first season after PC the Patriots went 5-11. But BB was given enough time by Kraft and turned it around in 2001 where they went 11-5 and won the SB. Patriots started the 2001 season 0-2 with Bledsoe, and then finished the year 11-5 with a SB and Brady at QB.

Brady threw 18 TDs and 11 Ints but what was interesting was the 2001 Patriots had 1793 yards on the ground as a team that year.

I know people groan when Marty ball, PC ball, or BB play vanilla ground and pound run games on offense. But when you have uncertainty at the QB position, or average QB play, it simply works!!!! It keeps your team from sinking and gives you a fighting chance to win games.

 

[Smellyman]

Without the abilities in the video below, Russell Wilson becomes a very average QB who can't convert 3rd downs. When he was skinny and greased lightening he could be un-defensible at times when he decided to play outside the offense and take over a game.

Poor Bronco fans think they are getting this version.


Not sure if everybody can't see it. They are RW scramble highlights.

 

[toffee]

Without the abilities in the video below, Russell Wilson becomes a very average QB who can't convert 3rd downs. When he was skinny and greased lightening he could be un-defensible at times when he decided to play outside the offense and take over a game.

Poor Bronco fans think they are getting this version.


Not sure if everybody can't see it. They are RW scramble highlights.

Most aging super stars could turn it on from time to time, just not all the time. Russ is aging but he is not old, not yet. He could still put on these type of highlights, just not consistently.

 

[keasley45]

That is grossly oversimplified.

PC in both instances took over aging and flawed rosters with QBs heading in the wrong direction. PC only had one season with the Jets so it is hard for a coach to put their stamp on a team with one season. The season after PC left the Jets went 3-13 and then 1-15 with R. Kotite.

Boomer Esiason during PC lone season put up 17 TDs and 13 Ints which is very average. But then the season after PC, Boomer Esiason followed with another average performance of 16 TDs and 15 Ints. Obviously Boomer throwing 2 more Ints did not make the Jets win three less games a year later. The difference? The 1995 Jets put up 1279 yards on the ground while with PC in 1994 put up 1566 yards on the ground as a team. The year before PC arrived the Jets went 8-8 as you pointed out with another average performance by Boomer Esiason (16 TDs and 11 Ints). But that 1993 Jets squad put up 1880 yards on the ground.

That is how the Jets were able to go 8-8 with average play at QB before PC arrived. I have no doubt in my mind this is what PC would have continued if he had been given more time and to rebalance the roster to enhance a running attack.

Also, with NE Kraft admits a lot of what led to PC's firing was out of his control. Normally owners are not that candid and will shoulder the blame on the HC when things do not go right. But in PC case Kraft was sticking up for him even though he fired him!

Interesting enough PC had a winning record in all three seasons with NE when his team had at least 1400 yards total on the ground. It could be argued the lone season with the Jets was a fluke. PCs final season with NE you had Drew Bledsoe imploding and the team was missing star Pro Bowl RB Robert Edwards.

Edwards was drafted in the 1st round, 18th overall in 1998 and was sensational as a rookie. Edwards had big shoes to fill because he was replacing the legendary Curtis Martin.

BB first season after PC the Patriots went 5-11. But BB was given enough time by Kraft and turned it around in 2001 where they went 11-5 and won the SB. Patriots started the 2001 season 0-2 with Bledsoe, and then finished the year 11-5 with a SB and Brady at QB.

Brady threw 18 TDs and 11 Ints but what was interesting was the 2001 Patriots had 1793 yards on the ground as a team that year.

I knew people groan when Marty ball, PC ball, or BB play vanilla ground and pound run games on offense. But when you have uncertainty at the QB position, or average QB play, it simply works!!!! It keeps your team from sinking and gives you a fighting chance to win games.

Thank you for taking the time to sift through the facts and lay them out so clearly.

 

[John63]

Without the abilities in the video below, Russell Wilson becomes a very average QB who can't convert 3rd downs. When he was skinny and greased lightening he could be un-defensible at times when he decided to play outside the offense and take over a game.

Poor Bronco fans think they are getting this version.


Not sure if everybody can't see it. They are RW scramble highlights.

Well for one the video link is broken. For 2 you have an opinion. However the facts say otherwise. We will see soon enough

 

[John63]

That is grossly oversimplified.

PC in both instances took over aging and flawed rosters with QBs heading in the wrong direction. PC only had one season with the Jets so it is hard for a coach to put their stamp on a team with one season. The season after PC left the Jets went 3-13 and then 1-15 with R. Kotite.

Boomer Esiason during PC lone season put up 17 TDs and 13 Ints which is very average. But then the season after PC, Boomer Esiason followed with another average performance of 16 TDs and 15 Ints. Obviously Boomer throwing 2 more Ints did not make the Jets win three less games a year later. The difference? The 1995 Jets put up 1279 yards on the ground while with PC in 1994 put up 1566 yards on the ground as a team. The year before PC arrived the Jets went 8-8 as you pointed out with another average performance by Boomer Esiason (16 TDs and 11 Ints). But that 1993 Jets squad put up 1880 yards on the ground.

That is how the Jets were able to go 8-8 with average play at QB before PC arrived. I have no doubt in my mind this is what PC would have continued if he had been given more time and to rebalance the roster to enhance a running attack.

Also, with NE Kraft admits a lot of what led to PC's firing was out of his control. Normally owners are not that candid and will shoulder the blame on the HC when things do not go right. But in PC case Kraft was sticking up for him even though he fired him!

Interesting enough PC had a winning record in all three seasons with NE when his team had at least 1400 yards total on the ground. It could be argued the lone season with the Jets was a fluke. PCs final season with NE you had Drew Bledsoe imploding and the team was missing star Pro Bowl RB Robert Edwards.

Edwards was drafted in the 1st round, 18th overall in 1998 and was sensational as a rookie. Edwards had big shoes to fill because he was replacing the legendary Curtis Martin.

BB first season after PC the Patriots went 5-11. But BB was given enough time by Kraft and turned it around in 2001 where they went 11-5 and won the SB. Patriots started the 2001 season 0-2 with Bledsoe, and then finished the year 11-5 with a SB and Brady at QB.

Brady threw 18 TDs and 11 Ints but what was interesting was the 2001 Patriots had 1793 yards on the ground as a team that year.

I knew people groan when Marty ball, PC ball, or BB play vanilla ground and pound run games on offense. But when you have uncertainty at the QB position, or average QB play, it simply works!!!! It keeps your team from sinking and gives you a fighting chance to win games.

And that is a grossly bad attempt to ignore the fact that till the Hawks every team he was HC got worse. But believe what you want we will know soon enough.

 

[keasley45]

And that is a grossly bad attempt to ignore the fact that till the Hawks every team he was HC got worse. But believe what you want we will know soon enough.

You just spew falsehoods fueled by an unhealthy dislike for the guy. And on the flipside, do the same in support for Russ. Nothing posted in the post you quoted was wrong. It's fact. Not opinion.
Pete Carroll has flaws, and he was the architect behind tge creation of one of the most dominant teams in recent history.

We don't go to our first Superbowl without the defense and run heavy approach he pushed. Thats a fact. Russ was in his second year and played well, but was NOT the reason Denver didn't get a first down until the 2nd quarter of the Superbowl.

We went to our 2nd superbowl because Pete's D and Lynch bailed Russ out against GB in the NFCCG. Russ was horrible and picked off curiously doing what? Trying to play the intermediate game. He didn't do much in that game until he started to run.

There was zero talk in the NFL during our most successful years about Russ being a handcuffed QB. All of the talk was about how he was a game manager with a flair for the dramatic who rode the back of a HOF RB and Def. That was literally the perception league wide until Lynch and the LoB were gone and all we could rely on was Russ.

During that period, Russ dudbt some great things, but the guy he was during our early success is the same guy he is now, just exceptionally polished at what he does do, but still struggling with those things the offenses hes despised were crafted to disguise from the rest of the league.

What's your defense going to be when Russ has the same issues in Denver that he had here? That Pete ruined him??

What's your take going to be when we are successful again under Pete? That he got lucky?? Or what, that ownership put him in detention so he was FORCED to change?

Can see it already...

 

[BleuEyedHawk]

John63, you can watch the video by clicking on "Watch on Utube" below the "Video Unavailable".

 

[BASF]

All of this back and forth when the key to what Wilson wants to do and what he is capable of has been seen for a decade and a half. The clincher for me about what Wilson wants to do with the offense was as soon as the Hawks hired Waldron (someone from the coaching tree predicated on crossers) and his PR people almost immediately put out the "Russ has no confidence in the Seahawks coaching staff." If you didn't get it then, you were living in denial. Wilson never had any intention of running the new offense. Wilson plays how Mr. Unlimited wants him to play. He literally said "I'm not going to change my mindset."

Seahawks QB Russell Wilson ‘not going to change’ mindset after Pete Carroll’s assessment of OT possession

Hindsight is 20/20 after all, but that doesn't mean that Russell Wilson agrees with Pete Carroll's assessment of the overtime possession in the Week Two loss to Tennessee.

www.seattletimes.com

 

[Lagartixa]

Wilson plays how Mr. Unlimited wants him to play. He literally said "I'm not going to change my mindset."

I'm totally on board with that name, even though I found the whole "unlimited" thing silly in the past.
Now it makes perfect sense to me.
Unlimited three-and-outs. Unlimited wide-open receivers at short but potentially chain-moving distances ignored.

 

[IndyHawk]

Fair enough I get were your coming from. Here is what I will tell you. I have played, coached and reffed for over 50 years. Yes I'm old. Lol

With all that and you can't see why we are reality on Russ?

 

[scutterhawk]

You just spew falsehoods fueled by an unhealthy dislike for the guy. And on the flipside, do the same in support for Russ. Nothing posted in the post you quoted was wrong. It's fact. Not opinion.
Pete Carroll has flaws, and he was the architect behind tge creation of one of the most dominant teams in recent history.

We don't go to our first Superbowl without the defense and run heavy approach he pushed. Thats a fact. Russ was in his second year and played well, but was NOT the reason Denver didn't get a first down until the 2nd quarter of the Superbowl.

We went to our 2nd superbowl because Pete's D and Lynch bailed Russ out against GB in the NFCCG. Russ was horrible and picked off curiously doing what? Trying to play the intermediate game. He didn't do much in that game until he started to run.

There was zero talk in the NFL during our most successful years about Russ being a handcuffed QB. All of the talk was about how he was a game manager with a flair for the dramatic who rode the back of a HOF RB and Def. That was literally the perception league wide until Lynch and the LoB were gone and all we could rely on was Russ.

During that period, Russ dudbt some great things, but the guy he was during our early success is the same guy he is now, just exceptionally polished at what he does do, but still struggling with those things the offenses hes despised were crafted to disguise from the rest of the league.

What's your defense going to be when Russ has the same issues in Denver that he had here? That Pete ruined him??

What's your take going to be when we are successful again under Pete? That he got lucky?? Or what, that ownership put him in detention so he was FORCED to change?

Can see it already...

LOL The old "Heads I win, Tails you lose" gig.
I'd wager that deep down, both 63 & Twist are hoping for Pete to sh*t the bed, & that Russell Wilson has screaming success, cuz that way, us Seahawks fans that aren't in the know, can take the back seat & they get to say "I told ya so".
There are no shades of gray, they've already thought the whole thing through, so your arguments for reason are a waste of your time, their disdain can be supported with both Positive & Negative cherry picked stats on anyone they choose (a pisaller) LOL

 

[toffee]

You just spew falsehoods fueled by an unhealthy dislike for the guy. And on the flipside, do the same in support for Russ. Nothing posted in the post you quoted was wrong. It's fact. Not opinion.
Pete Carroll has flaws, and he was the architect behind tge creation of one of the most dominant teams in recent history.

We don't go to our first Superbowl without the defense and run heavy approach he pushed. Thats a fact. Russ was in his second year and played well, but was NOT the reason Denver didn't get a first down until the 2nd quarter of the Superbowl.

We went to our 2nd superbowl because Pete's D and Lynch bailed Russ out against GB in the NFCCG. Russ was horrible and picked off curiously doing what? Trying to play the intermediate game. He didn't do much in that game until he started to run.

There was zero talk in the NFL during our most successful years about Russ being a handcuffed QB. All of the talk was about how he was a game manager with a flair for the dramatic who rode the back of a HOF RB and Def. That was literally the perception league wide until Lynch and the LoB were gone and all we could rely on was Russ.

During that period, Russ dudbt some great things, but the guy he was during our early success is the same guy he is now, just exceptionally polished at what he does do, but still struggling with those things the offenses hes despised were crafted to disguise from the rest of the league.

What's your defense going to be when Russ has the same issues in Denver that he had here? That Pete ruined him??

What's your take going to be when we are successful again under Pete? That he got lucky?? Or what, that ownership put him in detention so he was FORCED to change?

Can see it already...

You still don't get it lol, when John63 said facts, he was referring what he said. Everything out of his mouth were facts in his opinion.

 

[keasley45]

All of this back and forth when the key to what Wilson wants to do and what he is capable of has been seen for a decade and a half. The clincher for me about what Wilson wants to do with the offense was as soon as the Hawks hired Waldron (someone from the coaching tree predicated on crossers) and his PR people almost immediately put out the "Russ has no confidence in the Seahawks coaching staff." If you didn't get it then, you were living in denial. Wilson never had any intention of running the new offense. Wilson plays how Mr. Unlimited wants him to play. He literally said "I'm not going to change my mindset."

Seahawks QB Russell Wilson ‘not going to change’ mindset after Pete Carroll’s assessment of OT possession

Hindsight is 20/20 after all, but that doesn't mean that Russell Wilson agrees with Pete Carroll's assessment of the overtime possession in the Week Two loss to Tennessee.

www.seattletimes.com

This x100.

And the thing is, I love russ for what he did within the structure of our team. It was fine that we played close contests and couldn't move the ball consistently until the 4th qtr when he was allowed to stop trying to do things 'normally' within the construct of the offense, because there was always the belief that he'd get better. AND. we had the perfect coach, running game and defense to compliment a qb who maybe didn't get the ball out fast enough or make all the right reads, but was sure to be there to make a play where there was one to be made and even when he maybe couldn't execute what was planned, could turn a down into a thing of beauty.

All of that was ok until he decided to not be satisfied with it. Taking care of the ball, guven his other limitations, became one of his hallmarks. He was dead accurate on throws... but only threw when he felt secure in it. But all of that netted a ridiculous completion percentage and great int %. It's geat, but not evidence that he's beyond reproach. He attained it fir a reason.

He wasn't great at hitting the middle stuff, but could run around long enough that he'd dfind the open guy eventually... NO defense can cover the field for 5 seconds consistently all game. And so he became known for his long ball and big plays. Maybe the best in the league at it. But again, not fuel for 'RW Wilson is a God' train. He hit those play because that's where he was comfortable. Outside the scripted play.

And... he was gifted with a HC who actuxally supported the style of play Russ COULD play. play action, deep drops, giving the wrs time to get separation, dropping deep enough that he could see the whole field. It was all a match made in heaven. Until he drank his own kool-aid. The game film doesn't lie, folks can spin the clips as opinion, but that's ludicrous. His stats on 3rd down and success rate on that down are fact. And you can't blame PC or the offense for the 3rd and longs everytime when you have a qb who holds the ball, and as a result, takes sacks for losses the way he did.

10 years of evidence isn't an anomaly. It's fact. 2 years of infighting and Russ DEFENDING the style of play that many here try to pin on PC when PC was railing against what Russ was and wasn't doing - also not opinion. It's fact.

There's a difference between these two things - opinion and fact. They aren't interchangeable.

 

[keasley45]

And that is a grossly bad attempt to ignore the fact that till the Hawks every team he was HC got worse. But believe what you want we will know soon enough.

Bud, you do understand that you literally take away credit from Pete for building the team that won us anything, and also blame him for everything wrong with them now. As if he was just along for the ride and backed into superbowls and an approach that has literally been probably the most replicated in the league over the last 10 years.

The dude has his flaws. He hasn't been perfect. But he's one he'll of a football coach and leader of men.

The hate is just... hate.