Ringer article on Seahawks Offense

John63

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The pre-Wilson Carroll years as some sort of indictment is disingenuous. Clear rebuild years before a roster could develop and reach its full potential was clearly a rebuild.

Nevertheless, that 7-9 team gave us one of the best moments in NFL history.

LOl OKay lets see
PC NY jets took a 8-8 team and made them 6-10
PC NE Took a 11-5 team to 10-6, then 9-7 then 8-8

Sorry, but he took over teams, and then they started losing.

now, he gets credit for taking a 5-11 team to 7-9. But then 7-9 despite having g atop defense and run game. Then with the drafting of Wilson, they shot up to 11-5 and up until this past season when Wilson got hurt and missed games and never had a losing season.

So sorry to say factually the question still remains was it PC or Wilson. I find it interesting every season with PC as an HC where Wilson did not play all 16-17 games they had losing seasons. Given how terrible and how much Wilson was supposedly holding the team back and how great PC is you would think he could manage at least 8-8.

All that aside we will know well in the next 6 months. If the Hawks still can't win well there you go on the PC, If Denver does not have a winning record well there you go on Wilson.


In the end, though I doubt it will change anything. Those that blame Wilson will continue to, and those that blame PC will continue to.
 

keasley45

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LOl OKay lets see
PC NY jets took a 8-8 team and made them 6-10
PC NE Took a 11-5 team to 10-6, then 9-7 then 8-8

Sorry, but he took over teams, and then they started losing.

now, he gets credit for taking a 5-11 team to 7-9. But then 7-9 despite having g atop defense and run game. Then with the drafting of Wilson, they shot up to 11-5 and up until this past season when Wilson got hurt and missed games and never had a losing season.

So sorry to say factually the question still remains was it PC or Wilson. I find it interesting every season with PC as an HC where Wilson did not play all 16-17 games they had losing seasons. Given how terrible and how much Wilson was supposedly holding the team back and how great PC is you would think he could manage at least 8-8.

All that aside we will know well in the next 6 months. If the Hawks still can't win well there you go on the PC, If Denver does not have a winning record well there you go on Wilson.


In the end, though I doubt it will change anything. Those that blame Wilson will continue to, and those that blame PC will continue to.
This is a silly argument. What was Belichick's record before NE?
 

John63

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This is a silly argument. What was Belichick's record before NE?
We are not talking about Bellechik we are talking about the all mighty PC.

That said, Belichick
Clevland-6-10 then 7-9x2, then 11-5 that's called getting better. Final injury-plagued season 5-11
Ne 5-11 next year 11-5 then winning records until 2020 and again winning 2021. And that is with and without Brady

PC took every team prior to Seattle from winning records to losing. And with Seahawks without Wilson for the whole season all losing records.

the reality is OPC is a sub 500 coach without Wilson. Belichick is a over 500 coach without Brady.

That aside since you and others think the problem was Wilson there is no excuse for not having a winning record and the playoffs. They were 12-4 the year before Wilson's injury year, he has pretty much the same team other than the problem that was Wilson. So we should be in the playoffs easily. 1-2-3
 

TwistedHusky

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Well Bill lost his QB. He isn't doing great but he is starting to put it together. In the meantime, they haven't been just mediocre either.

But Bill is Bill. One of the best coaches ever.
Carroll isn't near his class.

What Carroll looks like after losing his QB seems like it will not be as successful but that is why they play the games.
 

keasley45

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We are not talking about Bellechik we are talking about the all mighty PC.

That said, Belichick
Clevland-6-10 then 7-9x2, then 11-5 that's called getting better. Final injury-plagued season 5-11
Ne 5-11 next year 11-5 then winning records until 2020 and again winning 2021. And that is with and without Brady

PC took every team prior to Seattle from winning records to losing. And with Seahawks without Wilson for the whole season all losing records.

the reality is OPC is a sub 500 coach without Wilson. Belichick is a over 500 coach without Brady.

That aside since you and others think the problem was Wilson there is no excuse for not having a winning record and the playoffs. They were 12-4 the year before Wilson's injury year, he has pretty much the same team other than the problem that was Wilson. So we should be in the playoffs easily. 1-2-3
And in his first 5 years PC took his team to consecutive superbowls with a qb who even in year 10 couldn't post better than an average 3rd down conversion rate through the air and can't throw to the middle of the field.

Just because you love Russ, doesn't mean you have to blame Pete for everything. Oh, wait. It does, because if you watch the tape, the ONLY explanation for Russ's shortfalls other than they are his own, is that somehow Pete conspired to ruin him, held him back, meddled, etc.

I get it now.
 

John63

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And in his first 5 years PC took his team to consecutive superbowls with a qb who even in year 10 couldn't post better than an average 3rd down conversion rate through the air and can't throw to the middle of the field.

Just because you love Russ, doesn't mean you have to blame Pete for everything. Oh, wait. It does, because if you watch the tape, the ONLY explanation for Russ's shortfalls other than they are his own, is that somehow Pete conspired to ruin him, held him back, meddled, etc.

I get it now.
yes but not until he got Wilson. 1 more time

without Wilson for a full season, PC is sub 500. Belichick without Brady is still over 500.

And just because you don't like Wilson does not mean you need to blame him for everything either goes both ways.

I get it now too, too you anything good is PC anything bad Wilson. But I already figured that out.

That aside we will know soon enough. If you are right Seattle will have a winning record and playoffs and Denver and Wilson will suck.

We will see soon enough.
 
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Ad Hawk

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I wish I could know when John63 has Foe'd everyone except Twisted; he's headed that way. He'll wonder why so many people have stopped showing up on .NET.

Like just about every other topic, placing all the merit or failure on the side of PC or Russ alone is silly, myopic, and has no conception of the complexity of this topic. Pete and Russ may agree on many things, such as avoiding the middle of the field, pulling the safeties up to the box then taking the deep shots--lots of glory, knock-out-punch explosive plays that demoralize the opponent. They may agree on taking a sack rather than turning the ball over, and they may agree in 1st-half rope-a-dope to learn the other team's tendencies. Russ' ability to come back in the 4th quarter was often a product of knowing the defense's game plan on that particular day (as opposed to what they may have seen on tape against other teams), play-calling to exploit it, and Russ' unflappable calm under pressure.

Also, few people know for sure how much Russ's height affects his abilities to throw over the middle. Arguing for "none" makes little sense, but saying it's "significantly more than most QBs" it also probably wrong. Why does Russ throw so few screen plays? Can he not throw over edge rushers? Is Pete screen-averse? Anyone who says they know for sure is blowing smoke.

Sad how many posters here build their own case from speculation, then have no regard for other possibilities.
 

keasley45

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yes but not until he got Wilson. 1 more time

without Wilson for a full season, PC is sub 500. Belichick without Brady is still over 500.

And just because you don't like Wilson does not mean you need to blame him for everything either goes both ways.

I get it now too, too you anything good is PC anything bad Wilson. But I already figured that out.

That aside we will know soon enough. If you are right Seattle will have a winning record and playoffs and Denver and Wilson will suck.

We will see soon enough.
This is dumb. And Wilson never did anything without Marshawn or the LOB. Couldn't advance in the playoffs. Couldn't throw for 3rd down conversions, and couldn't throw to the middle of the field.

Pete + LOB + Beastmode + Russ = Championship

Pete + Russ - Beastmode - LOB = The Hawks 2017 to 2021

Pete won with pieces other than just Russ.

Russ never won anything without the other 3.


Pete and the Hawks selling the farm to keep Russ was the mistake. We wouldn't be having this conversation had they cut bait when they were obviously thinking about replacing him when they looked into Mahomes and Allen.

Now why, pray tell would a FO who has a qb limited only by his system, be looking at replacing him outright?

Denver's problem. Russ's best years will be shown to have been with Pete.
 

Pandion Haliaetus

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The funniest thing is you can like Wilson and still see he has some huge flaws in his game, especially against defenses that have the personnel to scheme him out, and a bit of a problem alienating his teammates.

You can still like Carroll but understand he’s been a bit outdated, loyal to a fault, and had bit of a problem controlling and encouraging a more vetted roster.

It doesn’t have to be one extreme or the other. Neither are perfect. Pete has at least been willing to adapt often too little, too late but Wilson’s been relatively the same type of QB his whole tenure.
 

keasley45

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The funniest thing is you can like Wilson and still see he has some huge flaws in his game, especially against defenses that have the personnel to scheme him out, and a bit of a problem alienating his teammates.

You can still like Carroll but understand he’s been a bit outdated, loyal to a fault, and had bit of a problem controlling and encouraging a more vetted roster.

It doesn’t have to be one extreme or the other. Neither are perfect. Pete has at least been willing to adapt often too little, too late but Wilson’s been relatively the same type of QB his whole tenure.
Exactly.

It shouldn't be subject to fanboism or connecting the dots of some conspiracy theory. There's a historical record. Every game he's played is on tape. The good. The incredible, the bad. And all of it has a pretty straightforward explanation that doesn't lie much outside the play, pause, FF and RW buttons. Whether a play succeeds or fails, understand the assignments, and design and it doesn't matter the uniform, coach or era.

It's football
 
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toffee

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Most teams could only win with an above average QB, that ought to be beyond debate.

Some team with strong defense and or great running etc could win with an average QB.

No QB, regardless of how great he might be could win without decent defense.

As for Hawks we are going into 2022 with subpar QB, Sub par results are expected,
 

John63

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This is dumb. And Wilson never did anything without Marshawn or the LOB. Couldn't advance in the playoffs. Couldn't throw for 3rd down conversions, and couldn't throw to the middle of the field.

Pete + LOB + Beastmode + Russ = Championship

Pete + Russ - Beastmode - LOB = The Hawks 2017 to 2021

Pete won with pieces other than just Russ.

Russ never won anything without the other 3.


Pete and the Hawks selling the farm to keep Russ was the mistake. We wouldn't be having this conversation had they cut bait when they were obviously thinking about replacing him when they looked into Mahomes and Allen.

Now why, pray tell would a FO who has a qb limited only by his system, be looking at replacing him outright?

Denver's problem. Russ's best years will be shown to have been with Pete.

A lost everything you said is not true. I will not break down each one. I will break down one

2017 Wilson was the only player in NFL history to account for over 95% of the offense TDs, and over 80% of the total yards. He was are leading rusher and passer. So much for not doing anything without LOB and Lynch.

He led us to 6 of 7 winning seasons without LOB, though Lynch was around for one he was injured. Again so much for not doing anything

All below is 2015 till now
He led the league in TDs 2017
All decade team
All pro-second team
MFL passer ratign leader
Player of the week 7 times
6 Pro bowls
Player of the month

Now as to Couldn't advance in the playoffs

Ahh they progressed in the playoffs in 2016, 2015, 2019

So that's enough

So again we will find out soon enough
 

LeaveLynchAlone

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BASF,

Are you legit arguing that because Wilson played a certain way in college - this somehow clearly makes the case that Carroll is not the driver of this ridiculous 'explosive plays' focus or that it indicates Wilson is unable to produce outside of that box?

Lets review:

Carroll and his team are scouting for players that fit their preferences in play. Carroll has already demonstrated a predilection towards explosive plays. He finds a play that is exceptional at same...and shocking drafts him.

As explosive plays are a focus, per Carroll's own words, it is likely that a good percentage of practice time is used perfecting them. Probably not a crazy coincidence that Wilson got very good at that kind of play - as did his receivers.
(we know they devote a good % to scramble/breakdown plays)

Did Wilson fail to develop in those other areas because of the above focus? Likely. Is that an indication that he was incapable? 2015/2016 seems to argue otherwise (not sure the year he played injured).

10 years of playing a certain way will be difficult for Wilson to overcome. Perhaps almost impossible. But to argue Carroll couldn't be the genesis of the problem because Wilson played a certain way in college seems to ignore a lot of how scouting, practice, and player development works.

Wilson is full of himself, likely a piece of work. No argument. And it is easy to dislike him because of that and want to blame him. But this was all Carroll just trying to figure out how to make it work with such a flawed QB? Unlikely.
:cry:
 

keasley45

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A lost everything you said is not true. I will not break down each one. I will break down one

2017 Wilson was the only player in NFL history to account for over 95% of the offense TDs, and over 80% of the total yards. He was are leading rusher and passer. So much for not doing anything without LOB and Lynch.

He led us to 6 of 7 winning seasons without LOB, though Lynch was around for one he was injured. Again so much for not doing anything

All below is 2015 till now
He led the league in TDs 2017
All decade team
All pro-second team
MFL passer ratign leader
Player of the week 7 times
6 Pro bowls
Player of the month

Now as to Couldn't advance in the playoffs

Ahh they progressed in the playoffs in 2016, 2015, 2019

So that's enough

So again we will find out soon enough
Ok John. Let's see how Wilson does from here on out. No need to rehash every single point.
 

John63

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The funniest thing is you can like Wilson and still see he has some huge flaws in his game, especially against defenses that have the personnel to scheme him out, and a bit of a problem alienating his teammates.

You can still like Carroll but understand he’s been a bit outdated, loyal to a fault, and had bit of a problem controlling and encouraging a more vetted roster.

It doesn’t have to be one extreme or the other. Neither are perfect. Pete has at least been willing to adapt often too little, too late but Wilson’s been relatively the same type of QB his whole tenure.
I am not debating that Wilson like every player and QB including Brady dos does not have weaknesses. Is there no perfect QB. I am arguing his weaknesses as some here point out are not weaknesses. For example, it is illogical to think a Qb at Wilson's level has 2 great years where he is throwing short over the middle and then just on his own decides not to do it anymore. especially when both years involved our run game being missing in action. and as soon as that run game came back the short passing stopped. When you have an HC who wrote a book where he says he does not like short passing.

That said my biggest issue with Wilson is sometimes he trusts his Wr too much while l other times, not enough. Specifically, I think he trusts the wrong Wr too much sometimes. But even that is nit picky.


All that aside as I have been saying we will find out soon enough. we will know in 6-7 monthes.
 

LeaveLynchAlone

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Well Bill lost his QB. He isn't doing great but he is starting to put it together. In the meantime, they haven't been just mediocre either.

But Bill is Bill. One of the best coaches ever.
Carroll isn't near his class.

What Carroll looks like after losing his QB seems like it will not be as successful but that is why they play the games.

:cry:
 

JayhawkMike

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I wanted RW to stay another year and PC to be fired long ago.

Now I simply wish they were both gone.
 

scutterhawk

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Ok John. Let's see how Wilson does from here on out. No need to rehash every single point.
When someone refuses to concede ANY FACET of an argument, they are Prejudiced, LIMITED by IDOL WORSHIPING & locked onto 'Know-It-All-isms'....It's THEIR WAY or NO WAY.
 

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