Ringer article on Seahawks Offense

[bbsplitter]

The funniest thing is you can like Wilson and still see he has some huge flaws in his game, especially against defenses that have the personnel to scheme him out, and a bit of a problem alienating his teammates.

You can still like Carroll but understand he’s been a bit outdated, loyal to a fault, and had bit of a problem controlling and encouraging a more vetted roster.

It doesn’t have to be one extreme or the other. Neither are perfect. Pete has at least been willing to adapt often too little, too late but Wilson’s been relatively the same type of QB his whole tenure.

I definitely agree with the philosophy behind what you are saying. However I don't think it is wrong to try and dig to the bottom of what root of the problem is/was.

I do not think RW is a top 5 QB, I think he has a lot of flaws to his game. I do however, think he is an above average and sometimes great QB.

I think a lot of my frustration comes from envisioning him in someone else's system. What is Shanahan had RW? Belicheck? McVay? I think we all would pretty unanimously agree that we would see greater offensive production/more creative schemes, and probably a lot more games won in those cases.

I honestly can't say that I believe RW held PC back in any way. However, I do honestly believe that PC held RW back in many instances. I don't think PC is a coach equipped to win games in the modern NFL.

I am more than willing to be proven wrong, and I hope I am. Because I do love what PC has done for this team in terms of winning a superbowl and such. But I think John63 is fine to express the belief that most of the TEAM's failures can rest on PC's shoulders. Not all of the blame, but most of it.

 

[Rainger]

OMG although this is a great thread for all the ideas and smack etc. for all the pontification, I suspect that a lot of the people commenting here have not even read the article that this thread is referring too. Because if you had and you had an open mind and didn't just poo poo what you read then most of the mindless drivel I have read would not be posted.

But I guess I am asking too much lol. The RW groupies and RW deity religious zealots will never accept the FACTS in the article. It must be Pete's, the blocking, the play calling, or the Russians, fault.

 

[John63]

OMG although this is a great thread for all the ideas and smack etc. for all the pontification, I suspect that a lot of the people commenting here have not even read the article that this thread is referring too. Because if you had and you had an open mind and didn't just poo poo what you read then most of the mindless drivel I have read would not be posted.

But I guess I am asking too much lol. The RW groupies and RW deity religious zealots will never accept the FACTS in the article. It must be Pete's, the blocking, the play calling, or the Russians, fault.

Lol lol we read the article and you are entitled to your opinion. So are we, and I said and pointed out there are articles saying and showing facts were the article is wrong. The fact you need to come here to defend the article and then call people names who don't bow down to the article says alot. The article was well written and does exactly what you wanted. Problem is the facts, and assumptions made are at best questionable at worst wrong. For every article like this there are 10 saying the opposite. But hey it got your clicks and talk be happy. We will know the truth soon enough. Till then be blissful

 

[Lagartixa]

A lost everything you said is not true. I will not break down each one. I will break down one

2017 Wilson was the only player in NFL history to account for over 95% of the offense TDs, and over 80% of the total yards. He was are leading rusher and passer. So much for not doing anything without LOB and Lynch.

And that year, when the focus was completely where Wilson wanted it, right on Wilson, how'd the Seahawks do in the playoffs?

Oh yeah, they didn't make the playoffs.

How'd that happen?

After the game at the beginning of December, the Seahawks were 8-4 and pretty much everyone was penciling them in for a playoff spot.

In Jacksonville the next week, Wilson went 17 for 31 passing with three interceptions, the Seahawks went 2-9 on third-down conversions (0-1 on fourth down) and lost to the Jags 30-24. The Jags had a slight time-of-possession advantage in that game, 33:01-26:59, but I'm mentioning it because ToP was a consistent issue that season, with the Seahawks offense failing to sustain drives a lot, leading to the defense having to be on the field a lot, and the consensus was that that took its toll. With the loss in Jacksonville, the Seahawks' season record fell to 8-5.
The following week, Wilson went 14-30 passing, was thoroughly outplayed by JaGoff (not that Goff was great, but the gap between his performance and Wilson's in that game was large), the Seahawks went 4-14 on third downs, the Rams utterly dominated time of possession 36:14 to 23:46, and the Rams hammered the Seahawks 42-7 in Seattle. 8-6. Uh-oh...
On the 24th of December, the Seahawks went to Dallas and won. Wow, Wilson really showed his greatness there, right? Well, he completed two thirds of his passes (exactly the same 14/21 as JaGoff had against the Seahawks the previous week) and threw two TDs and zero interceptions, but only 93 passing yards. 60 net passing yards when you take away the 33 yards in sacks. The Cowboys led ToP 32:50-27:10, and the Seahawks went 4-11 on third downs.
So yikes, suddenly the Seahawks are 9-6 and really need to win the final game of the season at home against the Cardinals on the last day of the year. Well, at least it was the 7-8 Cardinals, and the Seahawks were at home. Whew, right?
Wilson wasn't bad, with 18-29 passing for two TDs and no interceptions. But the Seahawks were 1/12 on third downs (with seven three-and-outs). The Cardinals had more ToP, 32:16-27:44. People were mad at Blair Walsh when he missed the potential game-winning field goal from the Cardinals' 30 (48-yard attempt), and I'm no Walsh fan, but it wasn't his fault the Seahawks offense had seven three-and-outs and failed to convert on 11 third downs.

The Seahawks fell to 9-7 and missed the playoffs. The clear lesson of that season should have been that basing everything on Wilson was a losing proposition, but the Wilson fellators around here actually try to use the 2017 season as an argument in RW3-and-out's favor.

 

[John63]

And that year, when the focus was completely where Wilson wanted it, right on Wilson, how'd the Seahawks do in the playoffs?

Oh yeah, they didn't make the playoffs.

How'd that happen?

After the game at the beginning of December, the Seahawks were 8-4 and pretty much everyone was penciling them in for a playoff spot.

In Jacksonville the next week, Wilson went 17 for 31 passing with three interceptions, the Seahawks went 2-9 on third-down conversions (0-1 on fourth down) and lost to the Jags 30-24. The Jags had a slight time-of-possession advantage in that game, 33:01-26:59, but I'm mentioning it because ToP was a consistent issue that season, with the Seahawks offense failing to sustain drives a lot, leading to the defense having to be on the field a lot, and the consensus was that that took its toll. With the loss in Jacksonville, the Seahawks' season record fell to 8-5.
The following week, Wilson went 14-30 passing, was thoroughly outplayed by JaGoff (not that Goff was great, but the gap between his performance and Wilson's in that game was large), the Seahawks went 4-14 on third downs, the Rams utterly dominated time of possession 36:14 to 23:46, and the Rams hammered the Seahawks 42-7 in Seattle. 8-6. Uh-oh...
On the 24th of December, the Seahawks went to Dallas and won. Wow, Wilson really showed his greatness there, right? Well, he completed two thirds of his passes (exactly the same 14/21 as JaGoff had against the Seahawks the previous week) and threw two TDs and zero interceptions, but only 93 passing yards. 60 net passing yards when you take away the 33 yards in sacks. The Cowboys led ToP 32:50-27:10, and the Seahawks went 4-11 on third downs.
So yikes, suddenly the Seahawks are 9-6 and really need to win the final game of the season at home against the Cardinals on the last day of the year. Well, at least it was the 7-8 Cardinals, and the Seahawks were at home. Whew, right?
Wilson wasn't bad, with 18-29 passing for two TDs and no interceptions. But the Seahawks were 1/12 on third downs (with seven three-and-outs). The Cardinals had more ToP, 32:16-27:44. People were mad at Blair Walsh when he missed the potential game-winning field goal from the Cardinals' 30 (48-yard attempt), and I'm no Walsh fan, but it wasn't his fault the Seahawks offense had seven three-and-outs and failed to convert on 11 third downs.

The Seahawks fell to 9-7 and missed the playoffs. The clear lesson of that season should have been that basing everything on Wilson was a losing proposition, but the Wilson fellators around here actually try to use the 2017 season as an argument in RW3-and-out's favor.

Again your welcome to your opinion. However I don't have to agree. All that conjecture and opinion is great and supports your stance. I have at nauseum posted facts and stats showing the other side.

Again we will see soon enough. Be blissful

 

[Lagartixa]

Again your welcome to your opinion. However I don't have to agree. All that conjecture and opinion is great and supports your stance. I have at nauseum posted facts and stats showing the other side.

Again we will see soon enough. Be blissful

Summary: I posted the facts about what happened in the season when the entire offense was on Wilson and showed that not only did the Seahawks not reach the playoffs, it happened because the Wilson-led offense was awful on third down in the four games after the team had gotten to 8-4. I'm a Seahawks fan, so Wilson's good qualities kept me from even thinking of using "RW3-and-out" as a nickname for him, but after he was traded away and the discussions here got me thinking about Wilson's strengths and weaknesses without my fan goggles distorting them, the nickname occurred to me, and I have to admit I think it's pretty funny.

So then after I post the facts about the last quarter of the 2017 season, Russ Fellator #1 shows up and accuses me of posting "conjecture and opinion," and stating that the BS he has been posting so much it's become this forum's top running joke is "facts and stats" showing the other side. And never mind that the article at the top of this thread goes into some detail using facts, stats, charts, and tables, and others around here have shown that Wilson has been doing the same thing since college. In John63's world, Wilson can't fail; any failure involving Wilson is on others who have failed him. Carroll is J63's favorite target, which sets him up for some synergy with TwistedHusky, who really hates Pete Carroll. That's not meant as a criticism of Twisted; I've felt the same way about coaches, managers, and GMs of some of my favorite teams).

I'd summarize John63's entire posting history for the last several months as follows:

 

[John63]

Summary: I posted the facts about what happened in the season when the entire offense was on Wilson and showed that not only did the Seahawks not reach the playoffs, it happened because the Wilson-led offense was awful on third down in the four games after the team had gotten to 8-4. I'm a Seahawks fan, so Wilson's good qualities kept me from even thinking of using "RW3-and-out" as a nickname for him, but after he was traded away and the discussions here got me thinking about Wilson's strengths and weaknesses without my fan goggles distorting them, the nickname occurred to me, and I have to admit I think it's pretty funny.

So then after I post the facts about the last quarter of the 2017 season, Russ Fellator #1 shows up and accuses me of posting "conjecture and opinion," and stating that the BS he has been posting so much it's become this forum's top running joke is "facts and stats" showing the other side. And never mind that the article at the top of this thread goes into some detail using facts, stats, charts, and tables, and others around here have shown that Wilson has been doing the same thing since college. In John63's world, Wilson can't fail; any failure involving Wilson is on others who have failed him. Carroll is J63's favorite target, which sets him up for some synergy with TwistedHusky, who really hates Pete Carroll. That's not meant as a criticism of Twisted; I've felt the same way about coaches, managers, and GMs of some of my favorite teams).

I'd summarize John63's entire posting history for the last several months as follows:

View attachment 11549

You posted partial facts that can be countered very easily and I have as to the rest of your post yeah not reading it. Why because of your juvenile picture and need to try to minimize me and my stance. I could if I wanted to sink to that level easily post one of you, but I will not sink to that level

I will try this again

You can believe what you want as can I. We will know soon enough

 

[TwistedHusky]

Lagartixa,
I DO NOT hate Pete Carroll.

I hate what looks like Pete putting his staying in the chair over the success of the team.

I hate that he ran off our HOF QB, even if Wilson turned into an insufferable knob.

I do hate the way Pete likes to coach his football now though.

I don't respect Pete's coaching ability anymore. That isn't hate. And I REALLY do not like the nepotism and favoritism.

But Pete has accomplished a good of good things in this world and helped a lot of people, he delivered a SB win. It is impossible to HATE him.

He also could have squandered our HOF QB and he absolutely held this team back the last 5 years.

You can be pissed off at that without it being hate. You can even point out he is way too old to be worth anything as a football coach - without it being hate.
He isn't Ty Freaking Willingham, even though PeteBall is damn similar to TyBall.

 

[IndyHawk]

You posted partial facts that can be countered very easily and I have as to the rest of your post yeah not reading it. Why because of your juvenile picture and need to try to minimize me and my stance. I could if I wanted to sink to that level easily post one of you, but I will not sink to that level

I will try this again

You can believe what you want as can I. We will know soon enough

Off subject here John..I always believed you are Anthony! who was banned..
Just so you know the ban is gone now..
As for on topic..How did I miss this?It's all been said and I can't add extra
I will say those heat charts are damning!

 

[Scout]

Well Bill lost his QB. He isn't doing great but he is starting to put it together. In the meantime, they haven't been just mediocre either.

But Bill is Bill. One of the best coaches ever.
Carroll isn't near his class.

What Carroll looks like after losing his QB seems like it will not be as successful but that is why they play the games.

Actually I would argue something else entirely.

Historically when PC doesn't have access with good to great RBs is when his ball control and complimentary football philosophy can falter or shows diminished success.

PC has shown before coming to the Hawks he can win with average QB play if he has a good to great runner on offense. The loss of Patriots Pro Bowl RB Robert Edwards in a freak accident in the Pro Bowl changed the course of history.

Boomer Esiason and Drew Bledsoe were at the tail end of their careers and not capable of carrying their teams like their younger days. This is where having a RB to shoulder that load comes in. This was true for Elway in his twilight of his career and even Payton Manning toward the end.

The Saints even imploded their entire pass heavy offense and rebuilt it to provide better protection for Brees and to bring into the fold Kamara and other RBs.

So the idea of having an offense featured with a RB to help out an aging QB or having an average QB that needs a good to great RB isn't a new concept to PC.

 

[John63]

Off subject here John..I always believed you are Anthony! who was banned..
Just so you know the ban is gone now..
As for on topic..How did I miss this?It's all been said and I can't add extra
I will say those heat charts are damning!

Believe what you want the heat charts are damming, they are damming in that we don't run a lot of routes short middle. Hard to throw where if we don't run routes there.

 

[John63]

Actually I would argue something else entirely.

Historically when PC doesn't have access with good to great RBs is when his ball control and complimentary football philosophy can falter or shows diminished success.

PC has shown before coming to the Hawks he can win with average QB play if he has a good to great runner on offense. The loss of Patriots Pro Bowl RB Robert Edwards in a freak accident in the Pro Bowl changed the course of history.

Boomer Esiason and Drew Bledsoe were at the tail end of their careers and not capable of carrying their teams like their younger days. This is where having a RB to shoulder that load comes in. This was true for Elway in his twilight of his career and even Payton Manning toward the end.

The Saints even imploded their entire pass heavy offense and rebuilt it to provide better protection for Brees and to bring into the fold Kamara and other RBs.

So the idea of having an offense featured with a RB to help out an aging QB or having an average QB that needs a good to great RB isn't a new concept to PC.

Jets before PC 8-8
With PC 6-10


Ne before PC 11-5
PC has a Head coach
10-6
9-7
8-8

So every HC job he had before Seattle was him taking a team to a worse record than they had the year before without him

Yeah, does not sound like he knows how to do what you said.


But believe what you want.

 

[Pandion Haliaetus]

Jothony63!,

Can you please explain to the people how your data and opinions are actually facts but other people facts and data are just opinion?

I think it would just clear up, you know the animosity?

Like for instance from 1-10, how would you rate your non-biased knowledge of all things football.

Because a lot of your facts, and I’m not saying it’s completely wrong, just seem like it’s coming from production value tv graphics that don’t necessarily tell the whole story.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Believe what you want the heat charts are damming, they are damming in that we don't run a lot of routes short middle. Hard to throw where if we don't run routes there.

Hard to run routes there if your primadonna QB1 doesn't want to throw them.

 

[John63]

Jothony63!,

Can you please explain to the people how your data and opinions are actually facts but other people facts and data are just opinion?

I think it would just clear up, you know the animosity?

Like for instance from 1-10, how would you rate your non-biased knowledge of all things football.

Because a lot of your facts, and I’m not saying it’s completely wrong, just seem like it’s coming from production value tv graphics that don’t necessarily tell the whole story.

Tell you what get every other know it all who has an opinion and also them that same thing. When they willing jump through those same hoops for you. Till then yeah hard pass. As I have been saying.

We will know the truth soon enough!

 

[toffee]

Jothony63!,

Can you please explain to the people how your data and opinions are actually facts but other people facts and data are just opinion?

I think it would just clear up, you know the animosity?

Like for instance from 1-10, how would you rate your non-biased knowledge of all things football.

Because a lot of your facts, and I’m not saying it’s completely wrong, just seem like it’s coming from production value tv graphics that don’t necessarily tell the whole story.

That's simply, all John's words on Russell Wilson are gospel, it's beyond challenge. Therefore he could quote his own words as proof. You must be new here, or you would have figured that out.

 

[Pandion Haliaetus]

Tell you what get every other know it all who has an opinion and also them that same thing. When they willing jump through those same hoops for you. Till then yeah hard pass. As I have been saying.

We will know the truth soon enough!

Hey man I’m just trying to help you out. As much content and opinion I have put out there, I’m always willing to have perspective, and try to understand other poster’s insights and criticism.

If it was me I would rate my football knowledge as a solid 6, maybe a 7 or 8 if I put in the work at times to really deep dive.

You know unlike in my past, and god knows I went down that rabbit hole of reading my early posts and there was some cringe level criticism. And upon self reflection I saw myself being unrealistically combative, trollish in ways, and just believing what I wanted to believe.

At some point, I realized that I’m not here trying to tell or sell people on what to believe, or how to feel in a matter-of-fact way. I’ve really learned to temper myself down I think a whole lot from what I was 4 to 5 years ago. I still give my opinions but I try not to state them as the end all, be all argument. My former long-winded post from before were almost entirely just ranting on trying to cement my arguments and forcing people to believe what I was saying was truth.

Nowadays while my posts are still long in general they are so much dialed back on what I believe is the truth and there is so much more clarification to what I say to let the reader know that “hey, these are just my opinions, my thoughts, my perspective, my understanding of the situation” and I do my best to understand other peoples opinions, thoughts, perspective even if I feel that it doesn’t make sense or don’t agree with, I think overall it just made me a much better poster and maybe more importantly much easier to converse with because in general we are just Seahawks fans just trying to be Seahawks fans. No one wants to be told whether their right or wrong.

You feel me?

 

[seatownlowdown]

Hard to run routes there if your primadonna QB1 doesn't want to *is unable to* throw them.

FIFY


i'll look back fondly on the russell wilson era, and my russell wilson jersey still hangs in my closet. that being said, it was time to move on from russell. actually, if anything it was a couple of seasons overdue, and pete could have started this rebuild earlier. after marshawn retired, pete "gave him the keys" to the offense, and in the end russellball and $40m/year tied up in a rollout-qb just couldn't get the job done.

at his peak, russell wilson had become a top 5 qb in the nfl. but if that peak seemed short, it indeed was, because it was unsustainable. teams locked into the fact russell would avoid the middle of the field. seahawks started becoming predictable on passing downs going shotgun more often along with russell becoming terrible on 3rd down. teams started eliminating the sideline throws, and father time eliminated russell's running ability. sure, we can blame the offensive line which hasn't been good since the walter jones/hutchison days, i get it. but there's no excuse for holding onto the ball so long, especially when you know the line is bad. constantly seeing ghosts and running into defenders, russell took too many self-induced sacks. i'd say russell was at his best when he served as efficient game manager that could hit the occasional homerun as support to an elite run-1st offense. then going play-action off that run, quick passes, and designed rollouts that could get his athleticism on the edge (when teams hadn't adapted yet).

"but but but wilson is still great, he puts up great numbers!"

russell wilson's statistics are simply an outer facade that envelop the fact that he would never even get to another superbowl without a top 5 run game paired with a top 5 defense.

 

[bbsplitter]

FIFY


i'll look back fondly on the russell wilson era, and my russell wilson jersey still hangs in my closet. that being said, it was time to move on from russell. actually, if anything it was a couple of seasons overdue, and pete could have started this rebuild earlier. after marshawn retired, pete "gave him the keys" to the offense, and in the end russellball and $40m/year tied up in a rollout-qb just couldn't get the job done.

at his peak, russell wilson had become a top 5 qb in the nfl. but if that peak seemed short, it indeed was, because it was unsustainable. teams locked into the fact russell would avoid the middle of the field. seahawks started becoming predictable on passing downs going shotgun more often along with russell becoming terrible on 3rd down. teams started eliminating the sideline throws, and father time eliminated russell's running ability. sure, we can blame the offensive line which hasn't been good since the walter jones/hutchison days, i get it. but there's no excuse for holding onto the ball so long, especially when you know the line is bad. constantly seeing ghosts and running into defenders, russell took too many self-induced sacks. i'd say russell was at his best when he served as efficient game manager that could hit the occasional homerun as support to an elite run-1st offense. then going play-action off that run, quick passes, and designed rollouts that could get his athleticism on the edge (when teams hadn't adapted yet).



russell wilson's statistics are simply an outer facade that envelop the fact that he would never even get to another superbowl without a top 5 run game paired with a top 5 defense.

“Never even get to another Super Bowl without a top 5 run game and a top 5 defense.”

Isn’t that more so a huge damning piece of evidence against John and PC more so than Russell? When has a QB ever won a super bowl by themselves? Haven’t the last I don’t know know, 30 SB winning Super Bowl QBs been aided by some other aspect of their team that was excellent?

Forget even the “top 5” qualifier of your statement. Did you expect Wilson to drag us ball and chain with the absolute dredge heap of a roster we’ve had for years? When PC “god of defense” was giving up record yardage and on pace to have the worst defense EVER two years in a row to start the season, you were honestly thinking “hey, RW better cut this sh*T out, I ain’t having this no more Super Bowl crap?”

What exactly are your qualifiers he is supposed to hit? At the very very least. He has never. And I mean never. Been on pace to be the worst QB EVER in a season. EVER.

It is amazing to me how a fan base can have such excitement that we actually had a good draft FINALLY in like 7 years, witness the absolute devoid of winning possibility as soon as RW walked out the door, and still reach deep down into the depths of idiocracy to blame RW cuz he was a bit of a weirdo.

Give any actually good, modern coach RW over the past 5 years, and I guarantee you they have more success with him then PC got out of him.

 

[John63]

Hey man I’m just trying to help you out. As much content and opinion I have put out there, I’m always willing to have perspective, and try to understand other poster’s insights and criticism.

If it was me I would rate my football knowledge as a solid 6, maybe a 7 or 8 if I put in the work at times to really deep dive.

You know unlike in my past, and god knows I went down that rabbit hole of reading my early posts and there was some cringe level criticism. And upon self reflection I saw myself being unrealistically combative, trollish in ways, and just believing what I wanted to believe.

At some point, I realized that I’m not here trying to tell or sell people on what to believe, or how to feel in a matter-of-fact way. I’ve really learned to temper myself down I think a whole lot from what I was 4 to 5 years ago. I still give my opinions but I try not to state them as the end all, be all argument. My former long-winded post from before were almost entirely just ranting on trying to cement my arguments and forcing people to believe what I was saying was truth.

Nowadays while my posts are still long in general they are so much dialed back on what I believe is the truth and there is so much more clarification to what I say to let the reader know that “hey, these are just my opinions, my thoughts, my perspective, my understanding of the situation” and I do my best to understand other peoples opinions, thoughts, perspective even if I feel that it doesn’t make sense or don’t agree with, I think overall it just made me a much better poster and maybe more importantly much easier to converse with because in general we are just Seahawks fans just trying to be Seahawks fans. No one wants to be told whether their right or wrong.

You feel me?

Fair enough I get were your coming from. Here is what I will tell you. I have played, coached and reffed for over 50 years. Yes I'm old. Lol